Interesting video.
|
|
|
Armor or no Armor that is the question..
- Thread starter Jampy00
- Start date
Jay Alexander
Well-known member
Thought this was a joke video for today, but damn, surprised to hear how ineffective regular pads can be.
TK4
Well-known member
Attends will help that.
But somewhat seriously, as was mentioned in the video, these protectors are more for abrasion resistance than impact protection.
To think otherwise is naive.
This video is clickbait.
Last edited:
I think the AGATT folks are doing a dis-service to the riding public, with the idea that "gear" is gonna save your skin.
NOPE.
Riding "gear" is designed to minimize abrasions when sliding down the track... it ain't doing **** to protect you from a post office box or light standard at the side of the road. The physics of a 50- 100 kg mass of nice soft and squishy human hitting an immovable object at speed ain't pretty and all the Dainese or Alpinestars in the world won't help.
Kangaroo skin will help reduce, but not eliminate, burns, but does nothing went confronted with Newton's Laws of motion. All that mass has kinetic energy it has to get rid of... and breaking bones is a good way of burning off that energy.
Do you want to talk about helmets now?
NOPE.
Riding "gear" is designed to minimize abrasions when sliding down the track... it ain't doing **** to protect you from a post office box or light standard at the side of the road. The physics of a 50- 100 kg mass of nice soft and squishy human hitting an immovable object at speed ain't pretty and all the Dainese or Alpinestars in the world won't help.
Kangaroo skin will help reduce, but not eliminate, burns, but does nothing went confronted with Newton's Laws of motion. All that mass has kinetic energy it has to get rid of... and breaking bones is a good way of burning off that energy.
Do you want to talk about helmets now?
It's lost to the mists of time now, but the same Paul Varnsverry that is mentioned in the video produced a study 20+ years ago about leather motorcycle race suits that were literally falling apart at the seams in crashes. The report had multiple pictures of suits where the entire leg from knee to hip was exposed after the seams failed. And these were the top-level brands of the day (and some are still the big names even today), not some cheap knockoffs. The manufacturers' responses when presented with this information was to basically state: "Oh, these suits are not intended to provide protection; everyone knows they're just fashion garments". They really did not want to be liable (in a legal/PPE sense) for creating actual protective garments.
There was some kind of committee formed and in one of the meetings, there were samples of the suits available for inspection. Allegedly, one of the committee members pointed to the rubber/plastic armour and asked "And what are these?", to which one of the manufacturer's representatives replied without thinking: "Those are protectors". Ah-ha, gotcha! Apparently, that's how the CE standards came about for armour, leading to EN1621-x. It wasn't until much later that the whole-garment EN13595 standards (for impact, abrasion resistance, and seam burst strength) were introduced.
Very few of the major manufacturers ever produced EN13595 garments, even in their top-of-the-line race leathers. For a manufacturer that is interested in profits, the EN1621-x standards for armour that they stumbled into admitting are much simpler to meet and can be offloaded to some third-party armour manufacturer.
Some smaller manufacturers did produce EN13595 garments. I own a set of Halvarssons level 2 Safety Jacket and Safety Pants which are textile garments that meet the standards. They are nearly bomb-proof. Together, they weigh over 17lbs.
The mostly-ignored EN13595 level 1/2 standards have been replaced by the EN17092 A/AA/AAA standards in the past few years. I haven't looked closely, but I would not be surprised at all if the new AAA standards are actually lower than the old level 2 standards.
There was some kind of committee formed and in one of the meetings, there were samples of the suits available for inspection. Allegedly, one of the committee members pointed to the rubber/plastic armour and asked "And what are these?", to which one of the manufacturer's representatives replied without thinking: "Those are protectors". Ah-ha, gotcha! Apparently, that's how the CE standards came about for armour, leading to EN1621-x. It wasn't until much later that the whole-garment EN13595 standards (for impact, abrasion resistance, and seam burst strength) were introduced.
Very few of the major manufacturers ever produced EN13595 garments, even in their top-of-the-line race leathers. For a manufacturer that is interested in profits, the EN1621-x standards for armour that they stumbled into admitting are much simpler to meet and can be offloaded to some third-party armour manufacturer.
Some smaller manufacturers did produce EN13595 garments. I own a set of Halvarssons level 2 Safety Jacket and Safety Pants which are textile garments that meet the standards. They are nearly bomb-proof. Together, they weigh over 17lbs.
The mostly-ignored EN13595 level 1/2 standards have been replaced by the EN17092 A/AA/AAA standards in the past few years. I haven't looked closely, but I would not be surprised at all if the new AAA standards are actually lower than the old level 2 standards.
Bulk is one thing, but heat retention from conventional foam armour is the biggest drawback for me. I've pulled all the back pads out of all of my jackets since most of them were never tested/rated for anything to begin with. I get impatient and dumb when I'm stuck in hot traffic, so sacrificing dubious protective qualities for more airflow is an easy choice. I've also replaced most of my bulky knee/elbow/shoulder armour with lower profile and ventilated stuff like Dainese's 'pro-armour'.
I have a proper back protector for the track since they're mandatory, but the evidence for their effectiveness is anecdotal at best. Apparently most spinal injuries occur from twisting and bending, not impact. [link]
I have a proper back protector for the track since they're mandatory, but the evidence for their effectiveness is anecdotal at best. Apparently most spinal injuries occur from twisting and bending, not impact. [link]
matt365
Well-known member
So... I may break my bones with the pads. I'd bet the severity of the break would be worse with nothing.
As stated above, no amount of gear is going to save you from a sudden stop at the end of a slide.
I've never expected to be somehow protected by proper gear. Its still far better than nothing.
I still have a discolored patch on my right hip from a low-side at 30kph. I was wearing heavy duty work pants. Hip impact protection would have been a better choice than Dakota work pants.
Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk
As stated above, no amount of gear is going to save you from a sudden stop at the end of a slide.
I've never expected to be somehow protected by proper gear. Its still far better than nothing.
I still have a discolored patch on my right hip from a low-side at 30kph. I was wearing heavy duty work pants. Hip impact protection would have been a better choice than Dakota work pants.
Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk
I don't have the original sources handy to back up this statement, but helmets and armour are basically effective for the vertical component of your fall. That is to say, they'll protect you from the speeds your head/body can attain when falling from the seat of the motorcycle to the ground. That's a pretty low bar, but if you crash, you're going to hit the ground and that impact with the ground is more or less the same regardless of what horizontal speed you are travelling. That's the sort of impact that the materials are capable of mitigating.
As others have mentioned, the horizontal component of your crash (ie: your road speed) will be bled off by friction between you and the ground as you slide along if you are very lucky. If you are unlucky, a curb or post or other vehicle will interrupt that slide, and an inch or two of styrofoam or foam rubber can't really do much to help you there.
As others have mentioned, the horizontal component of your crash (ie: your road speed) will be bled off by friction between you and the ground as you slide along if you are very lucky. If you are unlucky, a curb or post or other vehicle will interrupt that slide, and an inch or two of styrofoam or foam rubber can't really do much to help you there.
I've never been confident of "in pant" knee protection - it moves around too easily so have worn separate knee armour for years.
Some heat retention but makes it easy to kneel and stays in place and I use them with the eBike to protect my knees wearing padded shorts with them
Just got these mainly for comfort on the CB300 ...mixed results...have extra room in the RevIt pants these days so anything that takes pressure off my sciatic nerve is welcome. Have not had a long ride in them yet and think need a bit of time to soften up. My AirHawk has seen better days.
Jackets I also removed the back protector to be cooler.. I do have an armoured shirt here but been wearing the jackets.
It has far better armour than any of my jackets.
..again I skip the back plate which is easily removable.
Take away, I'd rather wear armour on my joints that won't easily move around.
...
caveat
D30 armour certainly has amazing qualities.
www.d3o.com
and all CE level armour provides some impact protection ...it is better than none.....
Some heat retention but makes it easy to kneel and stays in place and I use them with the eBike to protect my knees wearing padded shorts with them
Just got these mainly for comfort on the CB300 ...mixed results...have extra room in the RevIt pants these days so anything that takes pressure off my sciatic nerve is welcome. Have not had a long ride in them yet and think need a bit of time to soften up. My AirHawk has seen better days.
Jackets I also removed the back protector to be cooler.. I do have an armoured shirt here but been wearing the jackets.
It has far better armour than any of my jackets.
..again I skip the back plate which is easily removable.Take away, I'd rather wear armour on my joints that won't easily move around.
...
caveat
You are a bit overstating ...none of the armour is styrofoam or foam rubber.
D30 armour certainly has amazing qualities.
Motorcycle Armor | Motorcycle Protection | D3O
D3O is the number one motorcycle impact protection brand with worldwide partners benefiting from products that exceed CE performance standards.
www.d3o.com
Last edited:
If you have sciatica, stretching in the evening and morning changed my life. Plenty of youtube content covering many stretches that help.
Mad Mike
Well-known member
I agree.
I'd like to see a F9 video explaining why textile gear is better for the street and leathers are better for the track.
The study he quotes asks people with fractures if they were wearing armour, and if they say yes that makes the armour useless? What about all the people who fell and did not get fractures? or were saved from injury becasue of armour? Were those people included in the study? I like all the Fort-Nine stuff and it seems pretty smart, but this actually seems a bit like clickbait unless I'm misunderstanding something.
And yes I agree that to expect armour to protect you from significant impact is naive for sure, as people have said above. But that fact doesn't mean that its pointless to wear.
And yes I agree that to expect armour to protect you from significant impact is naive for sure, as people have said above. But that fact doesn't mean that its pointless to wear.
Jay Alexander
Well-known member
Agreed.
Lots of people mentioning that they're not surprised the armour doesn't save you in crashes. I think it's so obvious, it goes without saying. It's the fact that Ryan mentioned it virtually does nothing for you that shocked me.
I always thought this armour was designed to a spec that can absorb some level of impact - not the tiny amount discussed in this video.
Tech-Air and D-Air will certainly reduce impact to a degree.
The video is a mashup of a few lines from a bunch of different studies. Individually those studies may or may not support the statements being made in the video.
- Energy attenuation performance of impact protection worn by motorcyclists in real-world crashes - PubMed
- This one attempts to "examine the relationship between meeting EN1621-1 and actual impact injury". Protectors were obtained from actual crash victims (or the same model of protector was purchased) and tested to see if they would help prevent fractures. This is the study that would suffer most from survivor bias where uninjured people are not present in the study data. Conclusion: "The allowable transmitted force of EN 1621-1 may be too high to effectively reduce the probability of impact injury. This is not surprising, given human tolerance levels that are reported in literature".
- Assessing the performance of motorcyclists' impact protectors in simulated ATD knee and shoulder impacts - PubMed
- This one used simulated dummy impacts to see if an impact energy that is known to cause fractures (without armour) would be mitigated enough by armour to prevent the fracture. Results: knee armour worked much better (approx 44% energy reduction to the femur) than shoulder armour (approx 8% energy reduction to the clavicle), indicating that that the allowable EN1621-1 limits are way too high to do anything useful for your collarbone. (I can confirm this from personal experience!)
- Could wearing motorcycle protective clothing compromise rider safety in hot weather? - PubMed
- This one studies the impact on "cognitive and psychophysical functioning" of wearing motorcycle armour in hot environments
Other than avoiding the accident, the key trick to minimizing injury is to get on the ground quickly and slide to a stop without hitting anything. This is the type of fall you have when you lowside. The "armor" you wear, and your leather or textile gear, will minimize low impact bumps, scrapes and abrasion type injuries, and that's about it.
TK4
Well-known member
Having trashed my rotator cuff many years ago I will attest that none of the insert style pads would have made any difference. The initial impact was one shot, short and direct. Unless you want to look like the Sta-Puft marshmallow man learn to live with certain risks.
|
|
|
|
|