Any GTAM'ers own an electric vehicle?

[Lunatic]

Exactly ... the only mistake GM made with Voltec is that they didn't put in Equinox or Terrain two or three years ago ... The issue is that the ICE versions have been selling well ... too well. And let's be honest here, GM still does EV or PHEV only when they are pushed to do it. The can do it well, but only if pushed .... that is sort of their biggest problem, in my view.

It seems like GM has had the push it needs.

https://auto.ndtv.com/news/general-...-formula-for-profitable-electric-cars-1797761

Interesting quote from the article:

If GM can meet Barra's ambitious profitability target, then it will house two different businesses by the mid-2020s: A traditional focus in North America on trucks, sport utility vehicles and cars fueled with petroleum, and a global electric car company centered in China, branching into pay-per-use services such as robotaxis.

 

[SunnY S]

The main problem with the Volt is that it is not a CUV. There are reasons it wasn't designed as one (aerodynamics, weight = range) but the market wants to CUV all the things. (It is a D2 platform vehicle ... the powertrain will fit in any other D2 platform vehicle ... the new Equinox is a D2 platform vehicle ... I'm not allowed to connect the dots, but feel free to.)

The powertrain interchangeability was a thing for a while, but it has become apparent that a good EV needs a designed-in place for the batteries with the preferred location being flat underneath the floor below the full passenger compartment. Tesla is like that and the Bolt is like that, upcoming VW and Mercedes are going that route. The e-Golf is not a good EV, the range is too short ... it will be replaced when VW's new MEB platform (dedicated EV) shows up. The Hyundai and Kia products don't have enough range to go mass-market. (The Ioniq is in the midst of an emergency rework to give it more battery capacity.) The Honda Clarity thus far is a science experiment; the EV version does not have enough range - and it IS a dedicated-platform vehicle.

the point isn't to debate whats done right or whats an experiment, its that the other companies are taking a smarter approach and using their R and D dollars wisely.

the D2 platform is apparently great and everything and the market wants CUV's, but why are they taking so long from a platform designed in 2011 to bring a second vehicle on it 8 to 10 years later?

It seems like GM has had the push it needs.

https://auto.ndtv.com/news/general-...-formula-for-profitable-electric-cars-1797761

.

Too late, they blew it..... other automakers are in the same race and are well ahead in their development and already have their electrification plans mapped out.


If GM came out with something like the Bolt back in 2011 instead of the Volt, they would have owned the electric car market and would have been so much further ahead of everyone else.

 

[PrivatePilot]

The one thing I learned quickly is to limit regen when there's severely limited traction available. The car becomes uncontrollable sled when heavy regen kicks in ... not sure whether others feel the same way (when no winter tires are used)

Regen on a 2 wheel drive EV (like most of them) is an interesting thing in an EV because of the very fact that when it's in use (and face it, pretty much every stopping situation uses regen first before friction brakes) it's only "braking" 2 wheels - typically the front.

On the Volt in slippery conditions it still uses regen, but the moment it detects any front wheel slip it turns off the regen and reverts to braking all 4 wheels...with the ABS and stability control of course, makes for a much more stable stop.

 

[mxs]

It seems like GM has had the push it needs.

https://auto.ndtv.com/news/general-...-formula-for-profitable-electric-cars-1797761

Interesting quote from the article:

If GM can meet Barra's ambitious profitability target, then it will house two different businesses by the mid-2020s: A traditional focus in North America on trucks, sport utility vehicles and cars fueled with petroleum, and a global electric car company centered in China, branching into pay-per-use services such as robotaxis.

I am not so sure that it is pushing the right buttons in GM's organization. She still will not say why there's no CUV/SUV with Voltec in it, still today. They have the Voltec technology developed and accounted for .... it's hard not to see a lot of stalling in their decisions. It's naive to believe that there's not enough customers to be interested in that sort of vehicle. Outlander PHEV ... delayed and delayed and delayed in North America, for at least 10 times, yet easily best selling SUV in some European countries, I believe. It's not a great car otherwise, the only reason it sells well is AWD, PHEV with DCFC charging plug priced right.

The demand is there, the will has been lacking ....

 

[mxs]

On the Volt in slippery conditions it still uses regen, but the moment it detects any front wheel slip it turns off the regen and reverts to braking all 4 wheels...with the ABS and stability control of course, makes for a much more stable stop.

That's pretty smart. Considering how Soul behaves, I am sure it doesn't do that.

It's not a big deal, once you know how it behaves. The first time you feel it, it's an aha moment, especially with M+S tire.

 

[PrivatePilot]

That's pretty smart. Considering how Soul behaves, I am sure it doesn't do that.

It's not a big deal, once you know how it behaves. The first time you feel it, it's an aha moment, especially with M+S tire.

One would have to assume that traction control would have the ability to turn off/disable/reduce regen on your Kia as well. Might be worth going out for some experimental driving in some super slick conditions to test that. Without that ability, eventually the rear end is going to swap positions with the front end in certain conditions, something that I can't possibly immagine would be acceptable given todays modern stability control requirements on new vehicles.

 

[Lunatic]

I am not so sure that it is pushing the right buttons in GM's organization. She still will not say why there's no CUV/SUV with Voltec in it, still today. They have the Voltec technology developed and accounted for .... it's hard not to see a lot of stalling in their decisions. It's naive to believe that there's not enough customers to be interested in that sort of vehicle. Outlander PHEV ... delayed and delayed and delayed in North America, for at least 10 times, yet easily best selling SUV in some European countries, I believe. It's not a great car otherwise, the only reason it sells well is AWD, PHEV with DCFC charging plug priced right.

The demand is there, the will has been lacking ....

It does look like GM has decided that they are going full EV or nothing.

 

[PrivatePilot]

It does look like GM has decided that they are going full EV or nothing.

It's kicked up a lot of fuss in the motoring world, but I think GM is ahead of the curve on this and will benefit in the long run when the rest of the industry catches up. Outside North America manufacturers are already ahead of the curve on this, but here on this continent where a good portion of the population are convinced that a 4X4 is essential for being able to get out of your own driveway and to the corner store every time we get 2CM of snow, it'll take some time for perspectives to change.

Eventually gas will get stupid expensive again and one can only hope that manufacturers start to push the cost savings aspect. Even the hard core gas pig crowd will eventually decide that $200 fillups might be worth compromising a little for when $5 of electricity will accomplish the same thing.

 

[Brian P]

Tesla's rear-drive configuration works against them when it comes to regenerative braking on slippery surfaces. Yes, I know you can get them with all-wheel-drive. $ $ $ $ $

I would expect that regenerative braking too much with front wheel drive will just result in enormous understeer.

As for "why doesn't GM put Voltec in Equinox" ... There's lots of factors. No doubt the fact that they already sell all the Equinoxes and Terrains that they can make, is one of them.

The auto industry collectively is still trying to figure out how to market this stuff. The desire for maximum possible range is a factor towards using a slippery sedan shape as opposed to a boxy CUV shape. (GM already stated that the Bolt is not optimum for aerodynamics ... but it's the form factor that people are buying.) Large pickup trucks and SUVs are low-hanging fruit in terms of fuel consumption and CO2 emissions ... but GM has already learned that people buying vehicles like that care more about V8 rumble than about fuel economy and CO2 emissions. The "green" crowd won't buy large trucks and SUVs. The cowboy/redneck crowd won't buy hybrids. Fleet buyers just want cheap purchase price. The family crowd will accept hybrids but they want CUV rather than sedan.

 

[SunnY S]

The auto industry collectively is still trying to figure out how to market this stuff. .

yes, and I am sure GM is going to lead the way <sarcasm>. in my eyes, they had a HUGE opportunity years ago and blew it big time.

if a car like the Bolt came out in 2011, they would have owned the E market by now while all the other automakers are scrambling.

 

[mxs]

Tesla's rear-drive configuration works against them when it comes to regenerative braking on slippery surfaces. Yes, I know you can get them with all-wheel-drive. $ $ $ $ $

I would expect that regenerative braking too much with front wheel drive will just result in enormous understeer.

As for "why doesn't GM put Voltec in Equinox" ... There's lots of factors. No doubt the fact that they already sell all the Equinoxes and Terrains that they can make, is one of them.

The auto industry collectively is still trying to figure out how to market this stuff. The desire for maximum possible range is a factor towards using a slippery sedan shape as opposed to a boxy CUV shape. (GM already stated that the Bolt is not optimum for aerodynamics ... but it's the form factor that people are buying.) Large pickup trucks and SUVs are low-hanging fruit in terms of fuel consumption and CO2 emissions ... but GM has already learned that people buying vehicles like that care more about V8 rumble than about fuel economy and CO2 emissions. The "green" crowd won't buy large trucks and SUVs. The cowboy/redneck crowd won't buy hybrids. Fleet buyers just want cheap purchase price. The family crowd will accept hybrids but they want CUV rather than sedan.

But the world is not just cowboys and rednecks or green people. Somehow, the world is forgetting all the people in between .... there's people, families who just need something little bigger with convenient towing capabilities. If people buy Pacifica vans, why would they not buy Equinox with 20kWh battery or something along the lines so they can get to work just on electrons and haul stuff far and away on the weekend using ICE where needed. There's definitely market for that ...

I still think GM is just holding unnaturally back ... till 2021 or whenever their on-onslaught is supposed to come, with supposedly (their words) some battery breakthrough technology allowing them to dip under 100$/Wh and extend range without Gigafactory of their own. A lot of battery claims made every single day out there, yet very little different action that conventional Li-ion we have known for so long. I bet they will be selling the same battery technology 3 years from now, it will be just cheaper by then, so they will start making money they set out for themselves.

 

[mxs]

It's not so much under steer regarding the regen affect on ice, because you normally have steering wheel straight at that point ... you let -off the gas and the car feels like a sled in a straight line which doesn't reply to any steering inputs ... LOL ... I guess you could call it a severe severe under-steer. I'd rather call it no-steer.

 

[mxs]

Eventually gas will get stupid expensive again and one can only hope that manufacturers start to push the cost savings aspect. Even the hard core gas pig crowd will eventually decide that $200 fillups might be worth compromising a little for when $5 of electricity will accomplish the same thing.

I am not convinced that gas price will just go up as an effect of anything else than weather or war supply disruption. The big oil boys will not go quietly, you bet on that. But nor do I expect the price will drop. I can see 1.20-1.50 for a long time if weather and war mongers hold-off their appetite.

 

[SunnY S]

I still think GM is just holding unnaturally back ... till 2021 or whenever their on-onslaught is supposed to come, with supposedly (their words) some battery breakthrough technology allowing them to dip under 100$/Wh and extend range without Gigafactory of their own. A lot of battery claims made every single day out there, yet very little different action that conventional Li-ion we have known for so long. I bet they will be selling the same battery technology 3 years from now, it will be just cheaper by then, so they will start making money they set out for themselves.

Yes, I'm sure they will have some "breakthrough" tech and other great ideas in 2020 as they have teamed up with.......drum roll please....... HONDA for next gen fuel cells....

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...ld-hydrogen-fuel-cells-at-michigan-factory-in

 

[Brian P]

yes, and I am sure GM is going to lead the way <sarcasm>. in my eyes, they had a HUGE opportunity years ago and blew it big time.

if a car like the Bolt came out in 2011, they would have owned the E market by now while all the other automakers are scrambling.

Lithium batteries were not available in the marketplace in large enough quantities in 2011 to have built the Bolt at that time. Also, at that time, public recharging stations were nonexistent for practical purposes. Fast-charging was still in the future ... because mass production of lithium batteries that would accept it was still in the future.

Tesla showed how to do this ... build BOTH the fast-charging stations AND the cars. And the beginnings of that were still a year away in 2011. That lesson still has not been learned by the other auto manufacturers. ANY of them.

The manufacturers that promote hydrogen fuel cells have the same situation ... and the way to resolve it is the same except that it is exponentially more difficult and will remain several times more costly ... all of which translates to Ain't Gonna Happen (not, at least, for the mass market).

 

[mxs]

I would not blame them for a bit of BEV vehicle hesitancy for the reasons you have mentioned. I just cannot let them off the hookup for not spreading the Voltec more throughout their lineup ... in my eyes, they are simply guilty there not capitalizing more on R&D they already spent.

 

[SunnY S]

Lithium batteries were not available in the marketplace in large enough quantities in 2011 to have built the Bolt at that time. Also, at that time, public recharging stations were nonexistent for practical purposes. Fast-charging was still in the future ... because mass production of lithium batteries that would accept it was still in the future.

Tesla showed how to do this ... build BOTH the fast-charging stations AND the cars. And the beginnings of that were still a year away in 2011. That lesson still has not been learned by the other auto manufacturers. ANY of them.

The manufacturers that promote hydrogen fuel cells have the same situation ... and the way to resolve it is the same except that it is exponentially more difficult and will remain several times more costly ... all of which translates to Ain't Gonna Happen (not, at least, for the mass market).

exactly as you have stated, Sort of like how we dont see any Hydrogen stations, yet manufacturers are increasing the production of these despite their crazy expensive cost? The Bolt would have been no different back in 2011. GM just couldnt see that far ahead (well they tried with the EV-1 but we know how that all ended), like all the Hydrogen guys are today.

I beg to differ, hydrogen cars are coming sooner than you think.


https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/8/16861914/hyundai-nexo-hydrogen-fuel-cell-ev-car-ces-2018

 

[SunnY S]

Good read for you GM electric car fan boys.

and this proves that GM could have produced something like the Bolt in 2011


GM had a good opportunity capatalize on the EV market a LONG time ago, but in typical GM fashion, they blew it.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

 

[Brian P]

The EV1 was in no way ready for the mass market in its day. It was essentially legislated prematurely into existence by a California decree that a certain percentage of light-duty vehicle had to be zero emissions by the early 2000s (I forget exactly which year, 2002-ish give or take); this was subsequently revoked when it became apparent that there was no way this was ever going to happen. The EV1 used lead-acid batteries at first, NiMH later on, but neither one is any match for lithium batteries which had not been commercialized in large enough quantities in the 1990s.

Make no mistake; lessons learned with EV1 were incorporated in the Chevrolet Volt, and lessons learned in the Volt 1 have been applied to Volt 2 and Bolt.

Just because you "can" produce something at a certain date doesn't mean you "should". EVs without charging infrastructure everywhere are dead in the water which is why it would have been premature to build one in 2011 even if they could have (the only way this would have worked is to do what Tesla actually did starting a year later). Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles without refueling infrastructure everywhere are equally dead in the water. The fortunate thing is that an EV can be charged (if slowly) at any ordinary receptacle and the distribution network for electricity generally already exists.

I think I've already mentioned it somewhere in this vast thread but I've been involved in a prototype hydrogen fuel cell refueling system for a private installation (all vehicles operate on the site, so the lack of ability to publicly refuel them is not an issue). The countermeasures against leaks and fire are exceptionally challenging and expensive. Hydrogen leaks through anything. It leaks THROUGH many materials. You can't see it, you can't smell it. The odorants used in natural gas (so that people can smell a leak) will poison the materials used in fuel cells so you can't use those (perhaps something else can be used, but not that particular one - it contains sulfur - no bueno). It has a very wide range between the LEL (lower explosive limit) and HEL. It has a very low ignition energy (static electricity will do it). Hydrogen flames are invisible. The only good thing about it is that IF there is a leak, it quickly dissipates up and out, but you had better not have a spark anywhere near the leak. And all of this is on top of the expenses and inefficiencies of producing, transporting, and storing it.

I have a rough idea what that installation cost. I also have a NDA to respect. I don't think it would violate the NDA to state that it was a big number.

Ain't. Gonna. Happen.

 

[SunnY S]

I think I've already mentioned it somewhere in this vast thread but I've been involved in a prototype hydrogen fuel cell refueling system for a private installation (all vehicles operate on the site, so the lack of ability to publicly refuel them is not an issue). The countermeasures against leaks and fire are exceptionally challenging and expensive. Hydrogen leaks through anything. It leaks THROUGH many materials. You can't see it, you can't smell it. The odorants used in natural gas (so that people can smell a leak) will poison the materials used in fuel cells so you can't use those (perhaps something else can be used, but not that particular one - it contains sulfur - no bueno). It has a very wide range between the LEL (lower explosive limit) and HEL. It has a very low ignition energy (static electricity will do it). Hydrogen flames are invisible. The only good thing about it is that IF there is a leak, it quickly dissipates up and out, but you had better not have a spark anywhere near the leak. And all of this is on top of the expenses and inefficiencies of producing, transporting, and storing it.

I have a rough idea what that installation cost. I also have a NDA to respect. I don't think it would violate the NDA to state that it was a big number.

Ain't. Gonna. Happen.

I'm not sure if I am reading your response correctly, I was aware of the ones in california, but after reading wiki, there are hydrogen re fueling stations all over the world. even in Canada.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_station




Its'. Gonna. Happen.....