Agreed 100% .... Arizona, Southern Cali maybe. Up here no way. Unless you have disposable money or very cheap money to borrow to build a large array and not be concerned so much about the end cost per kWh.
another ontario power generation scandal round 15
- Thread starter LiNK666
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Agreed 100% .... Arizona, Southern Cali maybe. Up here no way. Unless you have disposable money or very cheap money to borrow to build a large array and not be concerned so much about the end cost per kWh.
I always advise people if they want to go this way to put in enough solar to cover your daytime baseload (including A/C) and use the grid for peaking and nightime power. This minimizes your exposure to rising power prices without requiring an investment that will never pay off. Assuming you are using the power your panels make, they are getting close to cost effective now. Batteries are still a tragedy of money. Another plus is you are partially redundant if there is ever an issue with the grid. Having power during the day is good enough for most people to avoid a generator.
Panels continue producing in the evening (in the summer). Basically I advocate for grid-connection with peak shaving. Energy storage systems cost many times whatever Wynnebag can drive the cost of hydro to with current technology. You do things like having A/C run cooler during the day and warmer at night so you are using little grid power for HVAC. In the winter, you run the dishwasher/dryer during the day so it runs off solar etc.
With the new hydro plans they are coming out with where you can drive up peak rates in exchange for lower off-peak it could make even more sense as you use very very little peak power (if you ran the oven or dryer and A/C at the same time would draw from the grid, otherwise during daylight hours, you are self sufficient).
True off-grid systems that can support modern lifestyles of anything at anytime make Hydro One rates look great (last time I checked, in the ballpark of $50,000++ for a system plus maintenance). Your yearly costs for maintenance (including battery replacement every x years) probably approach your current hydro bills and you haven't even started to recover the initial expense.
What you propose, would only work in modernish house build with energy conserving elements in mind, no? Plus the roof would have to be favorably oriented or very nice size with efficient panels. With so many cloudy days this year we have had and winter ahead of us, I cannot see how this panels only system can really generate enough to not having to tap into peak grid often, in a normally functioning family (not one wearing battery operated heated vests in the winter ... LOL).
I use about 7 KWh/day during peak and mid-peak rate periods. A typical residential installation is 5 KW (20 panels, ~32 sq metres). Even on a cloudy day, that array should cover my usage if you are smart about it and don't use multiple high-draw devices concurrently (oriented south, approximately 15 kwh/day would be expected from this array in the summer and something like 5 kwh/day on a cloudy winter day). Obviously some roofs are not amenible to a solar array of that size oriented south. It's the same as the EV discussion, it seems like a dumb idea (or at least one where a few more generations of improvement are required for feasibility), but when you run the numbers, it works out for many people.
Aside from using the grid for peaking, the other benefit is it gives you somewhere to shove the solar power if you aren't using it. I still think battery banks cost more than they save with current technology. Alternatively, you could use a variable heat sink (maybe a pool heater in the summer and a house heater in the winter?) to dump excess power into something useful.
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A lot of Solar's purported abilities are slanted heavily toward rose coloured glasses and perfect world scenarios that don't pan out on the real world.
Storage is the biggest issue - people forget that even not only do you still need power at night for things like refrigeration, heating, and lighting, but that super high demand things like appliances (people have no idea that an oven for example can draw 5kw) require either an absolutely massive array to power "live" as the sun generates the power, or a large bank of batteries to provide that surge load.
Also, panels only generate their stated outputs for a few hours a day unless they are in self tracking gimbal mounts that keep them pointed at the absolutely most optimal angle to the sun....which roof mounted panels are not. A few degrees out of "perfect" and the panels may only be generating 60% of their capacity even in direct sun - winter (when the sun is lower on the horizon) is a great example of this, and it lasts many months.
A few clouds in the sky passing between the array and the sun on and off can cut output by 50% or more for periods.
A fullly cloudy day and that array may only put out 20% of its rated capacity. All day. Again, without that big bank of backup battery capacity that can jack up the initial and long-term operating costs vary significantly, many houses would find themselves dead in the water inside a day.
Add to that the fact that most north American households are extremely wasteful with electricity to begin with, things become even less realistic for the "average" consumer – it's only until you have a whole home wattage meter on your house (I have one) do you realize that even when one thinks everything is "turned off" most houses are still drawing between 300-1000W constantly in phantom loads - our house for example never gets below 320w. Ever.
To get rid of these phantom loads one needs to first identify and understand them, and then be willing to make the sacrifices and effort required to eliminate them – again, this is beyond what the average consumer is willing to do, and without such you are wasting several kilowatts per day for what most consumers wouldn't even comprehend as being actual consumption.
Solar is great, don't get me wrong, I would love nothing more than to be able to rely solely on I t, however I have delivered to plenty of solar & generator companies over the years and heard many stories about customers who stroll in with high hopes of powering their whole home or cottage with a few hundred dollars in solar panels and a few car batteries only to walk away discouraged when the reality is $50,000-$100,000 to accomplish it.
There are still people out there for example that think running their house on a gasoline generator is less expensive than grid power – for anybody who's ever tried it the reality is shockingly different.
Again, it comes full circle to grid power being comparatively dirt cheap to any other option out there right now.
Storage is the biggest issue - people forget that even not only do you still need power at night for things like refrigeration, heating, and lighting, but that super high demand things like appliances (people have no idea that an oven for example can draw 5kw) require either an absolutely massive array to power "live" as the sun generates the power, or a large bank of batteries to provide that surge load.
Also, panels only generate their stated outputs for a few hours a day unless they are in self tracking gimbal mounts that keep them pointed at the absolutely most optimal angle to the sun....which roof mounted panels are not. A few degrees out of "perfect" and the panels may only be generating 60% of their capacity even in direct sun - winter (when the sun is lower on the horizon) is a great example of this, and it lasts many months.
A few clouds in the sky passing between the array and the sun on and off can cut output by 50% or more for periods.
A fullly cloudy day and that array may only put out 20% of its rated capacity. All day. Again, without that big bank of backup battery capacity that can jack up the initial and long-term operating costs vary significantly, many houses would find themselves dead in the water inside a day.
Add to that the fact that most north American households are extremely wasteful with electricity to begin with, things become even less realistic for the "average" consumer – it's only until you have a whole home wattage meter on your house (I have one) do you realize that even when one thinks everything is "turned off" most houses are still drawing between 300-1000W constantly in phantom loads - our house for example never gets below 320w. Ever.
To get rid of these phantom loads one needs to first identify and understand them, and then be willing to make the sacrifices and effort required to eliminate them – again, this is beyond what the average consumer is willing to do, and without such you are wasting several kilowatts per day for what most consumers wouldn't even comprehend as being actual consumption.
Solar is great, don't get me wrong, I would love nothing more than to be able to rely solely on I t, however I have delivered to plenty of solar & generator companies over the years and heard many stories about customers who stroll in with high hopes of powering their whole home or cottage with a few hundred dollars in solar panels and a few car batteries only to walk away discouraged when the reality is $50,000-$100,000 to accomplish it.
There are still people out there for example that think running their house on a gasoline generator is less expensive than grid power – for anybody who's ever tried it the reality is shockingly different.
Again, it comes full circle to grid power being comparatively dirt cheap to any other option out there right now.
Yeah, I cannot make it work, not even remotely ... small and badly oriented roof with ton of tree around. Without batteries, I would be living a life where I'd be giving slots for oven goes now, right after microwave, turn the furnace/AC on ... hey who turned the toaster on without planning?? .... LOL
I'd love to throw panels on top of the roof, hookup a small power wall to it and be done with it. But I don't have cheap money sitting and waiting to be spent, opposed to just sit on 0.5% interest saving account.
I'd love to throw panels on top of the roof, hookup a small power wall to it and be done with it. But I don't have cheap money sitting and waiting to be spent, opposed to just sit on 0.5% interest saving account.
When we built the cottage the cost to get an underwater electric cable in was CRAZY. We went solar with a large battery array. The batteies over the years have been mostly Bell Canada take outs. Bell has massive battery walls that are all over the place powering phone exchanges, the batteries are cycled through and sold off, we get 5-7yrs out of the "bad" units. With LED bulbs and a lot of gas appliances, dryer, stove, heat, its been very manageable and the initial outlay wasn't bad.
It does require a life style change and works very well as a cottage. There is zero phantom power at the cottage, same with our old house in AZ, when we were not there power consumption was near zero. It takes planning and thought.
My house here is gas ovens, cookers, dryer, heat, bbqs and our only energy pig is the hot tub which may go in a gas heat exchange experiment this winter.
It does require a life style change and works very well as a cottage. There is zero phantom power at the cottage, same with our old house in AZ, when we were not there power consumption was near zero. It takes planning and thought.
My house here is gas ovens, cookers, dryer, heat, bbqs and our only energy pig is the hot tub which may go in a gas heat exchange experiment this winter.
Yes, gas appliances can take a huge amount of load off of your electricity requirements, no question, but gas isn't everywhere - a lot of people who want to go off grid are often those without access to gas at all. Think houses in the deep woods, very rural areas, cottages, cottages on islands, etc.
And even gas appliances still need electricity to run them usually. Gas dryers still have a 120V motor to turn the drum and run the blowers - ours draws a few hundred watts. High efficiency gas water heaters have a 120V blower. For heat, even something like a pellet fireplace/furnace has a blower still that needs to run constantly whenever it's lit. A good old fashioned fireplace doesn't need electricity of course, but again, average consumer is no longer interested in living like a pioneer and having to keep it stoked 24/7.
For a brand new house it would be easier if solar was considered right out of the gate. Low voltage LED lighting reduces inverter losses converting the DC from the panels to AC to power them. Ditto running a 12V fridge (Common on boats) vs an AC one that needs conversion, and the included losses. If you can keep virtually everything on DC for that matter, and have a decent sized battery bank, something like a weekend cottage or whatnot would be totally doable for a reasonable amount of money.
But the average consumer household, well...I stand to my earlier post above on the fact it becomes very unrealistic very quickly. People are wasteful and inefficient with their power usage (and most don't even realize it), and unwilling to sacrifice to increase viability.
And even gas appliances still need electricity to run them usually. Gas dryers still have a 120V motor to turn the drum and run the blowers - ours draws a few hundred watts. High efficiency gas water heaters have a 120V blower. For heat, even something like a pellet fireplace/furnace has a blower still that needs to run constantly whenever it's lit. A good old fashioned fireplace doesn't need electricity of course, but again, average consumer is no longer interested in living like a pioneer and having to keep it stoked 24/7.
For a brand new house it would be easier if solar was considered right out of the gate. Low voltage LED lighting reduces inverter losses converting the DC from the panels to AC to power them. Ditto running a 12V fridge (Common on boats) vs an AC one that needs conversion, and the included losses. If you can keep virtually everything on DC for that matter, and have a decent sized battery bank, something like a weekend cottage or whatnot would be totally doable for a reasonable amount of money.
But the average consumer household, well...I stand to my earlier post above on the fact it becomes very unrealistic very quickly. People are wasteful and inefficient with their power usage (and most don't even realize it), and unwilling to sacrifice to increase viability.
Indeed, but a propane furnace *stilll* needs electricity 24/7 to operate.
Back to the scandal.
What's to stop one or more of these Renewable Energy companies from being paid to take Hydro's excess, and then selling it back to them, under the high priced contract?
p.s. Don't Governments in Ontario ever hire lawyers to read through contracts to make sure they won't get burned?
In fact, aren't many of the people running for office, lawyers?
This is one example, and another is Toronto's purchase of LRT.
What's to stop one or more of these Renewable Energy companies from being paid to take Hydro's excess, and then selling it back to them, under the high priced contract?
p.s. Don't Governments in Ontario ever hire lawyers to read through contracts to make sure they won't get burned?
In fact, aren't many of the people running for office, lawyers?
This is one example, and another is Toronto's purchase of LRT.
My guess is the politicians are happy to accept a dollar of penalty for a dime of savings. It makes them look good when they announce a project and the next guy look even worse when they cancel the stupid project.
How would they do that technically?? I believe all Ontario projects are storage-less ... they just generate, wind or power and send it ALL (and who would not at those rates ... LOL) to the grid.
Some people had separate incoming and outgoing meters (in Oz for sure, I think it was also done this way for a while in Ontario). You were selling solar at 0.74 IIRC so you would send it all to the grid and run your house off the power you were buying at 0.10. It wouldn't be that hard (but not trivially easy) to use your grid power to push more power back out through your outgoing solar connection and literally generate money.
I don't know of anyone building sufficient storage that they could time shift the excess power and make money that way. Coincidentally, once 12 hour storage becomes cost-effective, wind turbines become much less of a bad idea.
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