Another fatal flaw removed - incorrect fine amount

[CruisnGrrl]

While in court fighting my 15 over ticket (I won, thanks gps) I heard that having no fine or the wrong fine is no longer considered a fatal flaw (the judge said she disagreed with the ruling but had to abide by it).

So a heads up for those wishing to use this as a defense. Not sure of the exact case when this happened but I'm sure some one with better law looking up skills than mine will be able to find it.

 

[zeniceguy]

details please

 

[iFly55]

you were super lucky that you were dealing with an inexperienced prosecutor; normally the prosecutor would request a motion to amend the face of the ticket with the correct fine; the stars somehow aligned and the gods have saved you

this is the case law supporting incorrect set fines: http://canlii.ca/t/1x2n3

basically you're not supposed to show up to trial, in your absence the Justice of Peace will examine the ticket for fatal errors and will quash the ticket if they're found; if the JP misses the fatal error, you appeal and cite London v. Young (win win)

 

[toysareforboys]

While in court fighting my 15 over ticket (I won, thanks gps)

Can you go into details about how your GPS helped your case? I had to create some fake GoPro footage for my friend after they refused to accept his GPS trip recorder into evidence (not a certified speed measuring device)?

-Jamie M.

 

[CruisnGrrl]

you were super lucky that you were dealing with an inexperienced prosecutor; normally the prosecutor would request a motion to amend the face of the ticket with the correct fine; the stars somehow aligned and the gods have saved you

this is the case law supporting incorrect set fines: http://canlii.ca/t/1x2n3

basically you're not supposed to show up to trial, in your absence the Justice of Peace will examine the ticket for fatal errors and will quash the ticket if they're found; if the JP misses the fatal error, you appeal and cite London v. Young (win win)

wasn't my case, it was mentioned while i was waiting for mine to be heard. one of the paralegals was complaining that it was no longer valid as a defence to have a ticket thrown out and the judge/jp mentioned she was uncomfortable with the results of the ruling, so that case supporting the incorrect set fines may be no longer valid.

 

[iFly55]

Can you go into details about how your GPS helped your case? I had to create some fake GoPro footage for my friend after they refused to accept his GPS trip recorder into evidence (not a certified speed measuring device)?

-Jamie M.

this decision isn't binding but it's at the very least persuasive http://canlii.ca/t/2fg2d (R. v. Anghel, 2010 ONCJ 652 (CanLII))

THE DEFENDANT’S EVIDENCE:

Mr. Anghel said that he tried to object to the officer because at the time he was using both his speedometer and his GPS to keep his speed under 50 kilometres an hour over the speed limit. He said his GPS showed 124 or 125 kilometres an hour. He said he knew he was speeding but that he was watching to make sure he didn’t go over 50 kilometres an hour over the speed limit because he knew the penalties were much higher for that.

He was asked what the function of a GPS is and replied it is to navigate from place to place.
Mr. Anghel agreed that the GPS unit was not designed to measure speed, that its primary purpose was as a navigational tool. The Prosecutor asked if the manufacturer of the GPS unit guarantees the accuracy of the speed reading and the defendant replied “no”. When asked if the manufacturer advises you to rely on the speed reading. The defendant did not know.

Reliability of evidence to the contrary:

The defendant, Mr. Anghel, gave evidence that he believed he was travelling at 124 or 127 kilometres an hour. He said he was relying on his speedometer and his GPS unit to keep his vehicle at a rate of speed just under 50 kilometres an hour over the speed limit.

In addition the speedometer and the GPS unit he was relying on to track his speed have not been established as accurate by any testing.

DECISION:

Mr. Anghel gave evidence that he believed he was travelling at a speed of perhaps 127 kilometres an hour. He based that belief on his speedometer reading and also his GPS unit. He acknowledged that he did not know if the GPS unit was capable of giving an accurate speed measurement, he did not give any evidence of having his speedometer checked for accuracy.

It would be ludicrous to suggest that he was exercising due diligence in that situation. I am not satisfied that any defence to this charge has been made out and there will be a conviction for the offence of stunt driving, contrary to section 172(1) of the Highway Traffic Act.

 

[toysareforboys]

this decision isn't binding but it's at the very least persuasive http://canlii.ca/t/2fg2d (R. v. Anghel, 2010 ONCJ 652 (CanLII))

Wow, thank you very much for the link!

Basically the judge said, because he was trying to just squeak under the 50 over law, it was irrelevant if he was actually 50 over, he's guilty of stunt driving anyway! Yikes!

Do you think it would be reasonable or economical, either through a statement by the GPS manufacturer, or through external testing by a third party, to get a GPS device certified as an accurate speed measuring device?

-Jamie M.

 

[iFly55]

wasn't my case, it was mentioned while i was waiting for mine to be heard. one of the paralegals was complaining that it was no longer valid as a defence to have a ticket thrown out and the judge/jp mentioned she was uncomfortable with the results of the ruling, so that case supporting the incorrect set fines may be no longer valid.

the Justice of Peace at the Ontario Court of Justice is bound to London v. Young because the decision was made at the Ontario Court of Appeals

 

[daught]

I used my phone gps in defense against pacing. My gps had a 2 second log for my whole trip. I showed the judge the 2 second log for the highway section the officer paced me on. To prove my phone was accurate I grabbed a laptop with a USB gps receiver, and did a test run in parallel with my phone receiver. The result were nearly identical. I showed the spec sheets of my phone gps receiver and laptop gps receiver. I overlaid all the points on a map and I made a speed chart. I was charged with 40 over. I pwned the prosecutor in cross examination, but the judge still charged me with fastest speed on MY chart... 117KM/h. Maybe because I never addressed him as "your worship" or "your honor". I hate that.

 

[toysareforboys]

I used my phone gps in defense against pacing. My gps had a 2 second log for my whole trip. I showed the judge the 2 second log for the highway section the officer paced me on. To prove my phone was accurate I grabbed a laptop with a USB gps receiver, and did a test run in parallel with my phone receiver. The result were nearly identical. I showed the spec sheets of my phone gps receiver and laptop gps receiver. I overlaid all the points on a map and I made a speed chart. I was charged with 40 over. I pwned the prosecutor in cross examination, but the judge still charged me with fastest speed on MY chart... 117KM/h. Maybe because I never addressed him as "your worship" or "your honor". I hate that.

The "charge" is speeding, the "fine" is how far over you were. Unless you could prove you were doing 99km/h, then he had to charge you, as you admitted your own guilt.

-Jamie M.

 

[iFly55]

I used my phone gps in defense against pacing. My gps had a 2 second log for my whole trip. I showed the judge the 2 second log for the highway section the officer paced me on. To prove my phone was accurate I grabbed a laptop with a USB gps receiver, and did a test run in parallel with my phone receiver. The result were nearly identical. I showed the spec sheets of my phone gps receiver and laptop gps receiver. I overlaid all the points on a map and I made a speed chart. I was charged with 40 over. I pwned the prosecutor in cross examination, but the judge still charged me with fastest speed on MY chart... 117KM/h. Maybe because I never addressed him as "your worship" or "your honor". I hate that.

imo this is not a win, the prosecution still secured a guilty conviction for speeding

+17kph and +40kph are both minor tickets in the eyes of the insurance companies; State Farm will bump your rates +20% for the first ticket and +10% for the next two consecutive tickets; finally on your third minor ticket within three years, they'll cancel your policy

http://www.wecdsb.on.ca/scr/CLU3M/CLU3MC/CLU3MCU3/clu3mcu3a02/mme/judge_script.rtf

17. How do I address you?

Justice Eleanor Schnall: Very often, people don't know what to call a judge. By profession, I'm a judge; by appellation, I'm a justice. In other words, if I'm addressed, if you write me a letter, it's addressed to the Honourable Madame Justice and then my name. When you're in a courtroom and you're addressing the judge, you say, your honour, and that's true of every level of court where there's a judge. You don't say, my lady, anymore, which is what they used to have in the higher levels of court. A justice of the peace is not a judge, and is addressed as your worship, but if I'm introduced, you know, you and I meet at a party or something and you want to introduce me to somebody else, you might say, I want to introduce my friend, this is Judge Schnall, but more properly, this is Madame Justice Schnall, which is very formal. When I get introduced, I really hope people don't necessarily introduce me as a judge, because you never know how people will react to being introduced to a judge - hopefully not intimidated.

 

[daught]

The "charge" is speeding, the "fine" is how far over you were. Unless you could prove you were doing 99km/h, then he had to charge you, as you admitted your own guilt.

-Jamie M.

Yea I knew that before I went in. I quoted that case where the dude got charged for going 100KM/h. Told the judge I would have obstructed traffic at 100KM/h and it would have been dangerous for me, especially on a bike. Even if I brought evidence that showed 101KM/h I would have been charged. Still it's pretty cool that I actually got my GPS evidence accepted in court.

As for "your worship", I find it repulsive that I have to call some dude "your worship". Not gonna happen. He's no deity, and I wont ever bow to someone in the "justice" system.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

You would be advised to use proper form of address, when dealing with the justice system. Showing disdain for it doesn't assist in your defence. Showing respect for someone who has been placed in a position of power above you isn't showing weakness, it's showing sense.

While in court fighting my 15 over ticket (I won, thanks gps) I heard that having no fine or the wrong fine is no longer considered a fatal flaw (the judge said she disagreed with the ruling but had to abide by it).

So a heads up for those wishing to use this as a defense. Not sure of the exact case when this happened but I'm sure some one with better law looking up skills than mine will be able to find it.

Having an incorrect fine on the ticket isn't a fatal flaw. It can be used to FORCE a fatal flaw.

 

[MarcosSantiago]

Do you think it would be reasonable or economical, either through a statement by the GPS manufacturer, or through external testing by a third party, to get a GPS device certified as an accurate speed measuring device?

-Jamie M.

Not sure if it is economical.
I do not have a GPS but for sure would like to know if they are certified as speed measuring devices.
Maybe I will send a couple of emails and see what they say.

 

[daught]

GPS receivers display speed and calculate the speed using algorithms in the Kalman filter. Most receivers compute speed by a combination of movement per unit time and computing the doppler shift in the pseudo range signals from the satellites. The speed is smoothed and not instantaneous speed.

HOW ACCURATE IS THE SPEED READING?


From the NAVSTAR GPS User Equipment Introduction document Section 3.7:

GPS receivers typically calculate velocity by measuring the frequency shift (Doppler shift) of the GPS D-band carrier(s). Velocity accuracy can be scenario dependent, (multipath, obstructed sky view from the dash of a car, mountains, city canyons, bad DOP) but 0.2 m/sec per axis (95%) is achievable for PPS and SPS velocity accuracy is the same as PPS when SA is off.

Velocity measured by a GPS is inherently 3 dimension, but consumer GPS receivers only report 2D (horizontal) speed on their readout. Garmin's specifications quote 0.1mph accuracy but due to signal degredation problems noted above, perhaps 0.5mph accuracy in typical automobile applications would be what you can count on.

Even if a GPS has a 5M lock, because you cover a lot of ground small inaccuracy does not affect your readout by much. It does not lose it's calibration like the cop's speed measuring devices. The fact that they don't accept gps data shows how ignorant they are.

Rob MacLennan I respect people strictly on merit, not position.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Even if a GPS has a 5M lock, because you cover a lot of ground small inaccuracy does not affect your readout by much. It does not lose it's calibration like the cop's speed measuring devices. The fact that they don't accept gps data shows how ignorant they are.

Rob MacLennan I respect people strictly on merit, not position.

As you are unlikely to deal with the same JP more than once in your life, if you are like most people, you will be unable to judge said person on merit. Not showing the respect due to the office only works to your detriment.

 

[daught]

Formal courtesy title for every one else is "Mr" or "Sir". A JP is not above that in my books.

 

[Sabex]

I don't use titles for anyone. Not police officers, government, etc.

I don't directly refer to them, I just make it implied. Unless I'm using a name, then it'll be direct (but calling a police officer by their name isn't exactly going to work out too good. especially when I don't know their name, lol!)

Haven't seemed to have a problem yet... Except in school, one 70+year old teacher thought I was giving him attitude; but he hated me for no reason anyways.

 

[OpenGambit]

You would be advised to use proper form of address, when dealing with the justice system. Showing disdain for it doesn't assist in your defence. Showing respect for someone who has been placed in a position of power above you isn't showing weakness, it's showing sense.

I actually think your worship is weird. I don't say it either. =D

But judges are definitely "your honour"

 

[Rob MacLennan]

I actually think your worship is weird. I don't say it either. =D

But judges are definitely "your honour"

I learned by watching police in traffic court. If you use the same form of address as those who are arrayed against you, you won't suffer from potential prejudice because of it