Accident?

[Emefef]

You are right, usually the guy behind is 100% at fault... unless the driver in front causes the accident (by slamming on the brakes maliciously, for example... just like in this case).

What the officer should have done, given the motorcycle driver's allegations, is to ask the lady "What happened?" to get her side of the story, and then "Why did you stop at this particular spot?"

Then, the officer should have impounded her vehicle and suspended her license based on this:

Definition, “stunt”
3.For the purposes of section 172 of the Act, “stunt” includes any activity where one or more persons engage in any of the following driving behaviours:
8. Driving a motor vehicle without due care and attention, without reasonable consideration for other persons using the highway or in a manner that may endanger any person by,
.......
ii. stopping or slowing down a motor vehicle in a manner that indicates the driver’s sole intention in stopping or slowing down is to interfere with the movement of another vehicle by cutting off its passage on the highway or to cause another vehicle to stop or slow down in circumstances where the other vehicle would not ordinarily do so,

Agree completely with Marcos, and added the bit I think he missed.

I'm not sure if you have a real opportunity now without the witness. You could file a complaint with TPS, because even if you don't have the badge number (because the officer intimidated you AND told you to leave), he may have made notes.
The worst case scenario would be that officer gets ticked and decides he should have charged you - I doubt that would be successful, and in my opinion the fear of it happening should not deter you from pursuing it.

That's assuming of course, that the driver antagonized you, brake checked you, and all you did was follow behind at what would normally have been a reasonable distance.

Maybe you'll get really lucky and spot that witness again.

 

[architect]

Yes I should have gave myself way more room after the fact she kept pointing at me and giving me the finger. Especially since this is downtown where everyone is already bumpee to bumper.

My mistake is not taking down witness information. Again, I'm most ****** that the cop did not bother listen or asking questions and just sided against the motorcyclist. He even try to discourage the witness for stepping up.

 

[油井緋色]

Sorry to hear about your situation is all I can say. It really sounds ****** but doesn't surprise me.

 

[architect]

What a day. Left work and found my rear sets broke off and placed on my seat. Came with a note and a number. Guy said he backed into my bike and felt really bad and will pay for the repairs. This man has class. Makes up for that bitchy lady in the morning.

 

[murf]

You are right, usually the guy behind is 100% at fault... unless the driver in front causes the accident (by slamming on the brakes maliciously</SPAN>, for example... just like in this case).

What the officer should have done, given the motorcycle driver's allegations, is to ask the lady "What happened?" to get her side of the story, and then "Why did you stop at this particular spot?"

Then, the officer should have impounded her vehicle and suspended her license based on this:

Definition, “stunt”
3.For the purposes of section 172 of the Act, “stunt” includes any activity where one or more persons engage in any of the following driving behaviours:
8. Driving a motor vehicle without due care and attention, without reasonable consideration for other persons using the highway or in a manner that may endanger any person by,

All she would have to say is she thought she saw a pedestrian, of a squirrel etc and hit the brakes. Then what?

 

[Rob MacLennan]

All she would have to say is she thought she saw a pedestrian, of a squirrel etc and hit the brakes. Then what?

Then a JP or judge would decide if she was credible, or if she was trying to fluff off her dangerous activities with a transparent lie.

 

[unL33T]

Bike should be able to out brake a car. If you had to grab that much brake you probably grabbed too much or you were following too closely.

Hasn't this been proven untrue several times?

She probably thought you were tailgating. That said, I've always been told that brake checking is illegal, too. You could always file a complaint with the police station for the officer not taking your complaint seriously.

 

[MarcosSantiago]

Agree completely with Marcos, and added the bit I think he missed.
...

Thank you. I butchered my post, tried to edit it, then they called me to go and do some actual work so I could not finish.

All she would have to say is she thought she saw a pedestrian, of a squirrel etc and hit the brakes. Then what?

That is true, it may be difficult, even more if she decides to lie and lie and lie, but the bottom line is that she caused an accident, on purpose.

Anyway, the first step was to get the cop to write a ticket (any ticket!) and give it to her.

 

[architect]

My first time getting into an accident in my 15 years of drive and few years of riding so now I know what I should do next time. Witness witness witness. Was just thrown off by the lack of fairness from cop in handling the dispute. Still ****** off at the actions of these two people more than anything. Bike damage is just bike damage in the end meh. Thanks again for everyone's thoughts.

 

[meme]

Hasn't this been proven untrue several times?.

Exceptions to everything.

Power to weight ratio and skill taken into account, I've never been able to stop in a shorter distance on 4w than on 2.

I also practice emergency braking on a fairly consistent basis.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

My first time getting into an accident in my 15 years of drive and few years of riding so now I know what I should do next time. Witness witness witness. Was just thrown off by the lack of fairness from cop in handling the dispute. Still ****** off at the actions of these two people more than anything. Bike damage is just bike damage in the end meh. Thanks again for everyone's thoughts.

That's why cameras are a good idea. Sure, it could potentially burn you by recording your own mistakes, but a camera provides an unbiased account of what happened from a particular angle of view. This can be invaluable evidence. There are just too many cases in which a motorcyclist can be screwed over by a driver because we're so often assumed to be the problem, or because the wrong scenario is more likely than the real one.

For example you're at a light and someone backs up into you, knocking you over and causing thousands of dollars worth of damage to your bike. It's more likely that you hit the back of the car, but that wasn't the case. Barring an admission, a witness, or photo evidence you're screwed. Or a driver side swipes you while he's passing you in your own lane. The officer assumes that you were lane splitting and you're charged for 'driving not in marked lane', 'improper passing', or < GASP! > HTA172. Video evidence would be indisputable.

 

[hedo2002]

A few observations. from the posts in the thread.

Firstly, the cop likely saw nothing of the actual interaction between the OPs bike and the car, but rather heard the commotion and the bike go down so he wasn't a witness. Did he handle the situation properly? Not at all, (I was a patrol supervisor and if he worked for me I would have told him so at the time). But he was likely more focused on getting the street cleared and traffic moving. The OP could have asked to move his bike to a safe location so they could discuss it further.

I too recently had a minivan try to brake check me twice on an open road with an 80 K limit, (so much so he actually came to a FULL stop, on the highway). My incident ended VERY differently, in that obviously I wasn't going to bite his bait I maintained my distance and just let him sit there for about 30 seconds until he realized I wasn't biting and he drove off.

Now why did my experience turn out so differently? 1. Was following at a safe distance and was able to brake safely and maintain control of my bike. 2 at the first opportunity, (next road) I turned off the road and took another route. Did it inconvenience me? Yes BUT, I no longer had to deal with the person who for whatever reason didn't want a bike behind him, (I also realized that given his previous actions had I tried to pass he may have swerved in front of me). We used to have a saying for accidents like that.... "that driver was dead right, (in this case me), but now he is just as dead as he was right"

Now the OP said his bike is "best when revving at 8K" in the close confinement of downtown buildings with all the echos etc, this, (especially seeing he also mentioned his LOUD PIPES), could have been just the thing that pushed this woman's buttons.

Does that mean I agree with what she did? Not in the least. Could have she handled it better? You bet she could have. Can the OP learn from this?

1. I would say, if you see someone who is obviously upset at your loud pipes and the 8K revs, then the easiest solution is to remove yourself from the area, (weather that means stopping for 30 seconds), or turning onto another route.
2. Once a person displays one act of "aggression" or dangerous behaviour, give them MUCH more space.
3. Leave yourself a safe following distance, as well as an "escape route", Had the OP done this he could have maneuvered his bike there and prevented dropping the bike.

In this case you came out unscathed, and those are the best type of lessons to come away from. Just sorry to hear of it, but I suspect all; of us at some points have learned lessons we would have rather not learned...

 

[Emefef]

A few observations. from the posts in the thread.

Firstly, the cop likely saw nothing of the actual interaction between the OPs bike and the car, but rather heard the commotion and the bike go down so he wasn't a witness. Did he handle the situation properly? Not at all, (I was a patrol supervisor and if he worked for me I would have told him so at the time). But he was likely more focused on getting the street cleared and traffic moving. The OP could have asked to move his bike to a safe location so they could discuss it further.

I too recently had a minivan try to brake check me twice on an open road with an 80 K limit, (so much so he actually came to a FULL stop, on the highway). My incident ended VERY differently, in that obviously I wasn't going to bite his bait I maintained my distance and just let him sit there for about 30 seconds until he realized I wasn't biting and he drove off.

Now why did my experience turn out so differently? 1. Was following at a safe distance and was able to brake safely and maintain control of my bike. 2 at the first opportunity, (next road) I turned off the road and took another route. Did it inconvenience me? Yes BUT, I no longer had to deal with the person who for whatever reason didn't want a bike behind him, (I also realized that given his previous actions had I tried to pass he may have swerved in front of me). We used to have a saying for accidents like that.... "that driver was dead right, (in this case me), but now he is just as dead as he was right"

Now the OP said his bike is "best when revving at 8K" in the close confinement of downtown buildings with all the echos etc, this, (especially seeing he also mentioned his LOUD PIPES), could have been just the thing that pushed this woman's buttons.

Does that mean I agree with what she did? Not in the least. Could have she handled it better? You bet she could have. Can the OP learn from this?

1. I would say, if you see someone who is obviously upset at your loud pipes and the 8K revs, then the easiest solution is to remove yourself from the area, (weather that means stopping for 30 seconds), or turning onto another route.
2. Once a person displays one act of "aggression" or dangerous behaviour, give them MUCH more space.
3. Leave yourself a safe following distance, as well as an "escape route", Had the OP done this he could have maneuvered his bike there and prevented dropping the bike.

In this case you came out unscathed, and those are the best type of lessons to come away from. Just sorry to hear of it, but I suspect all; of us at some points have learned lessons we would have rather not learned...

Excellent post.

 

[architect]

A few observations. from the posts in the thread.

Firstly, the cop likely saw nothing of the actual interaction between the OPs bike and the car, but rather heard the commotion and the bike go down so he wasn't a witness. Did he handle the situation properly? Not at all, (I was a patrol supervisor and if he worked for me I would have told him so at the time). But he was likely more focused on getting the street cleared and traffic moving. The OP could have asked to move his bike to a safe location so they could discuss it further.

I too recently had a minivan try to brake check me twice on an open road with an 80 K limit, (so much so he actually came to a FULL stop, on the highway). My incident ended VERY differently, in that obviously I wasn't going to bite his bait I maintained my distance and just let him sit there for about 30 seconds until he realized I wasn't biting and he drove off.

Now why did my experience turn out so differently? 1. Was following at a safe distance and was able to brake safely and maintain control of my bike. 2 at the first opportunity, (next road) I turned off the road and took another route. Did it inconvenience me? Yes BUT, I no longer had to deal with the person who for whatever reason didn't want a bike behind him, (I also realized that given his previous actions had I tried to pass he may have swerved in front of me). We used to have a saying for accidents like that.... "that driver was dead right, (in this case me), but now he is just as dead as he was right"

Now the OP said his bike is "best when revving at 8K" in the close confinement of downtown buildings with all the echos etc, this, (especially seeing he also mentioned his LOUD PIPES), could have been just the thing that pushed this woman's buttons.

Does that mean I agree with what she did? Not in the least. Could have she handled it better? You bet she could have. Can the OP learn from this?

1. I would say, if you see someone who is obviously upset at your loud pipes and the 8K revs, then the easiest solution is to remove yourself from the area, (weather that means stopping for 30 seconds), or turning onto another route.
2. Once a person displays one act of "aggression" or dangerous behaviour, give them MUCH more space.
3. Leave yourself a safe following distance, as well as an "escape route", Had the OP done this he could have maneuvered his bike there and prevented dropping the bike.

In this case you came out unscathed, and those are the best type of lessons to come away from. Just sorry to hear of it, but I suspect all; of us at some points have learned lessons we would have rather not learned...

Well said I'll keep those in mind. The thing that really is not an option is "safe exit route"; morning commutes downtown everyone is packed and stuck in together like a sardine can waiting for the next light. Realistically I don't think anyone is safe distance from one another. Only way out is lane filtering and I'm sure the lady would try something more serious.

I probably need practice but I'm not at all braking quicker than I would on 4 wheels unless I'm going to fall off my bike or quickly lean to one side and drop.

It'll take me some time to be not ****** of at ******** like the cop and lady. Trust me the cop wasn't trying to clear the road. He approached and talked to me like I'm some hooligan joyriding forgetting to realize that under the helmet and loud bike I'm a professional trying to get work.

And lastly it'll be hard to find new plastics for a 25 year old bike

 

[Tam905]

My first time getting into an accident in my 15 years of drive and few years of riding so now I know what I should do next time. Witness witness witness. Was just thrown off by the lack of fairness from cop in handling the dispute. Still ****** off at the actions of these two people more than anything. Bike damage is just bike damage in the end meh. Thanks again for everyone's thoughts.

Just from reading what I've read so far sounds like a ****** deal. The cop was already biased and that's not right but you might consider these options:

1. getting a camera for the bike (this is high on my to do list specifically for incidents like this) I already have one in my car that's hard wired. It's hard for the cop to be an as$hat when you have it all on video.
2. the moment you notice someone doing something abnormal (ie: giving you the finger and pointing, eating cereal, reading a newspaper) get away from them, put some distance between you and them and / or take another route.

my 2cents

- T -

 

[hedo2002]

Well said I'll keep those in mind. The thing that really is not an option is "safe exit route"; morning commutes downtown everyone is packed and stuck in together like a sardine can waiting for the next light. Realistically I don't think anyone is safe distance from one another. Only way out is lane filtering and I'm sure the lady would try something more serious.

I probably need practice but I'm not at all braking quicker than I would on 4 wheels unless I'm going to fall off my bike or quickly lean to one side and drop.

It'll take me some time to be not ****** of at ******** like the cop and lady. Trust me the cop wasn't trying to clear the road. He approached and talked to me like I'm some hooligan joyriding forgetting to realize that under the helmet and loud bike I'm a professional trying to get work.

And lastly it'll be hard to find new plastics for a 25 year old bike

Well as I said did the officer handle the situation as you described it correctly, (nope), but he may have seen the incident differently than you did, (although a good police officer realizes no matter how silly they may perceive the complaint to be, it is important enough that the person making the report has taken their time to report it to you). I was told that by a Sgt of mine in the 70's..lol Now having said that Police officers are humans and as such just like you and I they come to the job with their own prejudices. I am sure if you seen me on my lady's 600 Sport bike you would perceive me in a VERY different way then you would were I sitting on my 1700 Yamaha Cruiser.

Just to clarify my use of the term "escape route" wasn't meant as a route for you to flee or escape from the situation, but rather I was pointing out a good experienced rider is always looking for a space in which if something goes horribly wrong in front of them that they can "get to" to prevent being injured or hit. IE in a congested low speed area like downtown a space to the right where perhaps there are no parked cars, or no one is in the lane next to you.

I wasn't suggesting you lane split and pass this woman to get out of there as she likely would have doored you or hit you. Now had you pulled a bit past her rear bumper on either side of her car, it may have given you just enough extra space to stop without having to dump the bike.

As for your plastics look at scrap yards like Peterboro bike salvage, or even on flea bay or Kijiji. you may be surprised what is still floating around. Even dealership in more rural areas. I found a gas tank in 2011 for a 1990 bike that was sitting in a storage container at a dealership near Lindsay as the owner never throws anything out as he has the space..lol There is also a place in Oshawa south of the 401 they have a crap load of older bike stuff, last year found parts for a 92 sport bike.

 

[architect]

Well as I said did the officer handle the situation as you described it correctly, (nope), but he may have seen the incident differently than you did, (although a good police officer realizes no matter how silly they may perceive the complaint to be, it is important enough that the person making the report has taken their time to report it to you). I was told that by a Sgt of mine in the 70's..lol Now having said that Police officers are humans and as such just like you and I they come to the job with their own prejudices. I am sure if you seen me on my lady's 600 Sport bike you would perceive me in a VERY different way then you would were I sitting on my 1700 Yamaha Cruiser.

Just to clarify my use of the term "escape route" wasn't meant as a route for you to flee or escape from the situation, but rather I was pointing out a good experienced rider is always looking for a space in which if something goes horribly wrong in front of them that they can "get to" to prevent being injured or hit. IE in a congested low speed area like downtown a space to the right where perhaps there are no parked cars, or no one is in the lane next to you.

I wasn't suggesting you lane split and pass this woman to get out of there as she likely would have doored you or hit you. Now had you pulled a bit past her rear bumper on either side of her car, it may have given you just enough extra space to stop without having to dump the bike.

As for your plastics look at scrap yards like Peterboro bike salvage, or even on flea bay or Kijiji. you may be surprised what is still floating around. Even dealership in more rural areas. I found a gas tank in 2011 for a 1990 bike that was sitting in a storage container at a dealership near Lindsay as the owner never throws anything out as he has the space..lol There is also a place in Oshawa south of the 401 they have a crap load of older bike stuff, last year found parts for a 92 sport bike.

Just to make sure that this is clear. The officer SAW NOTHING. He is no way a witness. He came after the fact and immediately imposed his own prejudiced against bikers.

I'm not a big fan of "you could have swirled this way, that way, up top, grabbed the brakes 5% less" after the fact advice either. Sure I'm not the most experience rider at all but it wasn't like I had much to work with at all, especially she was purposely timing her actions to inflict harm. Sure in hindsight I COULD have just gave her a car space length or something in order to allow room for my to swerve away but I'm sure someone would have cut in with their car as soon as they saw an opening. Downtown driving/riding is tough/serious business. I'm pretty aware and mindful when I'm on a bike. My mistake was possibly not practicing emergency braking more and not knowing how to stay on the bike.

When I use to live/bicycle downtown I got clipped by a guy aggressively pulling out of parking without looking. I was on a dedicated bicycle lane too. If motorcycling to work didn't cut my commute down in half I would rather be TTC'ing.

 

[RockerGuy]

You are right, usually the guy behind is 100% at fault... unless the driver in front causes the accident (by slamming on the brakes maliciously</SPAN>, for example... just like in this case).

What the officer should have done, given the motorcycle driver's allegations, is to ask the lady "What happened?" to get her side of the story, and then "Why did you stop at this particular spot?"

Then, the officer should have impounded her vehicle and suspended her license based on this:

Definition, “stunt”
3.For the purposes of section 172 of the Act, “stunt” includes any activity where one or more persons engage in any of the following driving behaviours:
8. Driving a motor vehicle without due care and attention, without reasonable consideration for other persons using the highway or in a manner that may endanger any person by,

Agreed!

Hey at least you have a clue what route she takes every day

 

[H4x0rz]

If u want to pursue this she is indirectly involved and if u could proove this has actually committed stunt driving (stunt driving doesn't only have I be speeding, can be doing wheelie, gunning on fresh green to make left turn with no advance to beat traffic, loosing traction with road, ghost riding, having passenger in trunk, hanger ons, burnouts)... Just FYI next time. Can't do brake checks. If you can proove she did it with no reason to brake her car gone for 7 days license gone for 7 days and shed be responsible for your damages .

Camera is an excellent idea. I have one hardwired in my car too. Records in full HD. And can get plates extremely easy