A No Brainer. Biking without a helmet. | Page 2 | GTAMotorcycle.com

A No Brainer. Biking without a helmet.

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While in PA this October, I decided to go for a short ride without a helmet on to try and understand the argument against helmets. I totally understand, now, how some people really enjoy it.

That said, given the choice, I'd still wear helmet full time because I just feel safer and more comfortable with it on. Having hit a bear at speed last year, and my helmet having saved me from certain death, I can say any advantage to going without a helmet is dwarfed by any advantage of riding with one.

However, in the US, people have the "Don't tread on me" attitude and want the freedom of choice. It's important to note that most people who campaign for the freedom to choose to go helmetless still choose to wear a helmet. The discussion in the US isn't whether going helmetless is better, it's simple freedom of choice. My American friends point to Canada when noting that giving up your freedom of choice is a slippery slope.
 
homme de fer said:
My American friends point to Canada when noting that giving up your freedom of choice is a slippery slope.
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No it isn't. The slippery slope idea is a uniquely American perspective, from a country that it incredibly paranoid about their government. PA does not have helmet laws, they also have a huge number of people accumulating assault weapons and members of militia. These people are scared of everything.
How many of your American friends who point to Canadian laws have ever been outside the US? Only 15% of Americans have passports. The rest think the US has the highest standard of living in the world (reality, 58th).
We have enough stupid ideas in Canada without looking for more in the US.
 
homme de fer said:
While in PA this October, I decided to go for a short ride without a helmet on to try and understand the argument against helmets. I totally understand, now, how some people really enjoy it.

That said, given the choice, I'd still wear helmet full time because I just feel safer and more comfortable with it on. Having hit a bear at speed last year, and my helmet having saved me from certain death, I can say any advantage to going without a helmet is dwarfed by any advantage of riding with one.

However, in the US, people have the "Don't tread on me" attitude and want the freedom of choice. It's important to note that most people who campaign for the freedom to choose to go helmetless still choose to wear a helmet. The discussion in the US isn't whether going helmetless is better, it's simple freedom of choice. My American friends point to Canada when noting that giving up your freedom of choice is a slippery slope.
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I was also in PA this summer. I was standing on the side of the road talking to a friendly State Trooper who told me that he only rides (his Harley) without a helmet, and he won't ride into New York because of their helmet laws. This from a guy who's job involves showing up at accident scenes, go figure. He was a decent otherwise reasonably intelligent guy who sent me on my way with a warning and directions to some fun twisties near by. I don't think he saw the irony!
 
CafeRay said:
No it isn't. The slippery slope idea is a uniquely American perspective, from a country that it incredibly paranoid about their government. PA does not have helmet laws, they also have a huge number of people accumulating assault weapons and members of militia. These people are scared of everything.
How many of your American friends who point to Canadian laws have ever been outside the US? Only 15% of Americans have passports. The rest think the US has the highest standard of living in the world (reality, 58th).
We have enough stupid ideas in Canada without looking for more in the US.
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So much fail, I don't know where to start.

- "from a country that it incredibly paranoid about their government" - When watching lamestream media, that would help form that opinion. However, having travelled there often and having many friends there, the "average" American is no different from us. As a matter of fact, your opinion is driven more from a need to feel "better than them" then anything else.

- "PA does not have helmet laws, they also have a huge number of people accumulating assault weapons and members of militia." - Massive generalization based on nothing. Let's see some numbers on the percentage of PA residents amassing large stockpiles of munitions or belonging to militias? Owning a gun is just owning a gun.

- "These people are scared of everything" - Massive generalization. They aren't scarred of riding without a helmet, are they? Besides, I'm pretty sure Canada has at least the same percentage of nervous Nelly's (I would bet on us having more).

- "How many of your American friends who point to Canadian laws have ever been outside the US?" - Actually, quite a few if you consider tours of duty in the military.

The Helmet argument can be broken down in two ways:

1 - Wearing a helmet is safer than going without. Absolutely, no argument. As a matter of fact, an American died in New York this summer protesting the helmet law when, if he had worn the helmet, he probably would have walked away.

2 - Freedom of choice. As Canadians, we've kind of given that up IMO, so we don't know what it feels like to have it.

For most Canadians, the argument is safety (someone has to think of the children). For Americans, it's the notion of freedom of choice. Both are valid.
 
homme de fer said:
2 - Freedom of choice. As Canadians, we've kind of given that up IMO, so we don't know what it feels like to have it.
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I have a question that would directly impact how I respond to this. If you are in a collision, who pays for your medical coverage? your insurance or OHIP? I've heard different stories.
 
Wear full leathers and Level 2 CE armor all the time or STFU. Rebuilding knees costs more than burying someone. I highly encourage people that ride with me at my pace to wear pants, but I could not care less what everyone else wears. What we have for lunch on a ride probably affects OHIP costs more in the long run. Should we only allow bikers to eat salads on a ride?
 
mimico_polak said:
If we charged the helmetless people for the hospital bills that they rack up if they're in an accident....I say let em go without a helmet (same for people who don't wear seatbelts). Let em have their freedom, but also let them understand that we as a whole pay for their error/accident/idiocy.

Maybe they'll think twice about the financial ruin they can put their families in in order to get their 'wind in the hair' feel. Personally I've never done it. Sometimes I'll ride with my visor up in the city and taking a rock/bug to the face hurts like a ***** anyway. My buddies with their beanie helmets have sometimes come in with small cuts / gashes on their face because the debris on the highway.
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I am not an expert on helmet laws, but I think sometimes people look particularly in the US as it being black and white, i.e soem states mandate helmets and some support freedom of choice.

In Florida, a helmetless state, there are some provisions. If I recaqll correctly, i m not going to do the look up, under 21 you cannot ride without a helmet. if you do ride without a helmet, you must also carry a minimum level of personal health insurance. So the "right" to ride without a helmet and excercise the right to choose does come iwth some caveats. I imagine this also exists in some other states as well
 
homme de fer said:
So much fail, I don't know where to start.

- "from a country that it incredibly paranoid about their government" - When watching lamestream media, that would help form that opinion. However, having travelled there often and having many friends there, the "average" American is no different from us. As a matter of fact, your opinion is driven more from a need to feel "better than them" then anything else.

- "PA does not have helmet laws, they also have a huge number of people accumulating assault weapons and members of militia." - Massive generalization based on nothing. Let's see some numbers on the percentage of PA residents amassing large stockpiles of munitions or belonging to militias? Owning a gun is just owning a gun.

- "These people are scared of everything" - Massive generalization. They aren't scarred of riding without a helmet, are they? Besides, I'm pretty sure Canada has at least the same percentage of nervous Nelly's (I would bet on us having more).

- "How many of your American friends who point to Canadian laws have ever been outside the US?" - Actually, quite a few if you consider tours of duty in the military.

The Helmet argument can be broken down in two ways:

1 - Wearing a helmet is safer than going without. Absolutely, no argument. As a matter of fact, an American died in New York this summer protesting the helmet law when, if he had worn the helmet, he probably would have walked away.

2 - Freedom of choice. As Canadians, we've kind of given that up IMO, so we don't know what it feels like to have it.

For most Canadians, the argument is safety (someone has to think of the children). For Americans, it's the notion of freedom of choice. Both are valid.
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Great post!
 
When travelling thru states with no helmet laws, I have taken count before. Last time I drove I75 all the way thru Ohio, I counted almost exactly 80% of the bikes I saw with helmetless riders.

80%!!!, even though they can choose to wear one, don't. Crazy.
 
I admit I don't wear a helmet when I bicycle.

In my own case, my problem is that I commute on my bicycle and am also a really sweaty guy (and no, I'm not morbidly obese). Any sort of helmet or head covering makes the situation much worse. Even those cycling helmets with all the holes in 'em.

Were I to helmet up, I would be obligated to carry a full change of clothes, towel, etc. and shower two, three or four times a day - and that's if the place I work has anywhere to shower at all (I've worked at plenty of places that haven't). At that point I'm pretty sure I would just give up cycling, losing the single largest amount of exercise I do. For me it's not so simple as a wind-in-my-hair thing.

So it's a tradeoff. I get my exercise, but risk my head. I suppose an armchair critic might advise me to totally change my lifestyle, buy a car, pay for a gym membership and all that wasteful crap. To that I say: Well when was the last time you told someone to totally change their entire lifestyle and that person actually did so?

On my motorbike though? Damn right I wear a full helmet.
 
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Mongrel, when was the last time you looked at helmets? I don't mean the stuff at Walmart but the fancy $ helmets with lots and lots of air openings for Tour de France types.

The kind that people with bicycles that cost more than motorcycles wear.
 
That's exactly the type I'm talking about. Tried those. Bike helmets are just generally very uncomfortable for me when riding.

If I was somehow exercising heavily, a motorbike helmet would be even more unbearable. But I'm not. Not that riding all day isn't tiring, but comparing riding a motorbike to strenuous exercise is absurd.

Having crashed many times on bicycles and a couple times on Motorbikes/mopeds, it's still a risk I'm comfortable with. I don't go particularly fast anymore and I certainly don't scream down hills at 90 kmh. Hell, my top cycling speed is maybe 35 kmh - 40 kmh. On a good day. Now, that doesn't let me off the hook - biking in Toronto traffic is a risk in and of itself - but there comes a time when at least a little risk is beneficial, within reason. Sensible risk mitigation is one thing, but I don't want to be padding my life in cotton-wool. If I RACED bicycles, I would certainly wear a helmet no matter how uncomfortable, because the risk would be much higher (higher speeds, aggressive competition). But for just durdling back and forth to the shop or work? I think the risk is fine.

It's like the attempts to balance things for kids: People want kids to play safe so you see cartoon mascots with full safety gear and nerf playgrounds and the like because if you can make something dangerous safe, why not do so? But at the same time other people want kids to learn about risk and personal limits with some rough, unsupervised play and that means those kids will get hurt sometimes.

As has been mentioned you could get a traumatic brain injury just by tripping and falling down the stairs or being hit by a car as a pedestrian [joke about Toronto drivers goes here]. Does that mean I should wear a helmet while just walking around? Most people would agree that would be pretty silly. Most people will also agree (I hope!) that any sort of high-speed crash on a motorbike is extremely risky, so NOT wearing a helmet is silly there.

Where the risk line between motorbiking and walking falls is where things get debatable. I decided long ago that that's an area where I'm willing to agree-to-disagree.
 
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Wow, I've had more close calls riding my bicycle to work in Toronto than I've had on my motorcycle. I understand about the heat though. It's a ***** when it gets warm. I'd never go out on either without a lid though, too much to lose.

The Sikh guy hasn't ridden since 2005? He should just let his hair down and get a helmet shaped like a turban! Could be a big seller!
 
I wear a helmet, But i believe in the right of choice.. if I choose not to wear one, that should be my choice, as well as a seatbelt.
For those that have been arguing the point that Because Someone makes that choice, they should also give up their right to the healthcare provided, should something go wrong.
But has anyone brought up this point with smoking ? I see Patients all the time at the hospital standing outside with IV's in their arms , smoking away.
even at the Juravinski hospital in Hamilton, which is mostly for cancer patients, you see them standing out there puffing away. LOL How many of you that think the motorcyclist with no helmet should get no medical help, also smoke ? What would happen if you needed a luing transplant ? Nope, Not for you. you made the choice to smoke. you know its dangerous. Should you receive any medical aid because of your smoking Or even drinking if you want to take it further.

who draws the line on who should get help, and who doesnt ?

besides, lets get real here, Survivors from helmetless motorcycle accidents are far and few between, and the draw on Hospital care and other medical needs are miniscule compared the rest of the injuries the hospital has to deal with.. I would assume the cost of Smokers in for cancer treatments surpasses the cost of helmetless riders 50-100 x

but thats just a guess.
 
omnivore said:
My youngest brother suffered an AVM and a massive stroke and brain injury at the age of 26. It was almost 8 yrs ago now. Luckily, he was found in time, and in a mere few hrs, underwent over a million dollars worth of brain surgery at Vancouver's finest hospital. He had a long hospital stay, then rehab every day for yrs, now he is down to rehab a couple times a week.
He isn't the same person as he used to be. Different personality, temperment, likes, dislikes, even his taste in food is different now. It took him yrs to be able to form a short term memory, even though his childhood memories never left him.
He still needs to sleep almost 2/3 of the day.......15 hrs a day. He cannot be in a crowded or noisy place, or walk along sidewalks on busy streets. Buses, traffoc, people talking, horns honking, trains, etc..... It overloads his senses. His brain lacks the filter we all have, to focus on one person talking, and fade out all the other background noise. It's like putting a tape recorder in a crowded mall, and then hitting playback, and trying to listen to just one person's speech in a sea of noises.

And his is a GOOD case. Many of the people he goes to rehab with are much worse off-some are human paperwights. Many from something as simple as a fall from a skateboard without a helmet, or a slip and fall in the shower.
My folks are retired and live half the yr in a trailer park in Florida, where everyone rides those old-people trikes around with a basket on it for groceries. My dad posted facebook pics of them pedalling around on theirs. My brother lost it, asking them where there helmets were. MY dad's reply was that he didn't need to wear one since the trailer park has a 25 mph speed limit for cars. And my brother retorted " Ahh I see...because you can't fall and get a brain injury at 25 mph can you?"
The people he sees every week drooling and ******** themselves in G.H.Strong Hospital's rehab unit have drastically changed the way he sees safety and prevention....and I am sure to promote it to anyone who will listen. My kids all take it very seriously too. A $25 device can save your life, and it doesn't diminish your enjoyment of the activities you are participating in, so why not wear the helmet?
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I used to teach my friends kids to ski and I'd always say "don't bother with a helmet, its only the bunny hills." I think your brother had it right.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/arts/natasha-richardson-dies-after-quebec-skiing-accident-1.814244

Worth bearing in mind seeing as the seasons just beginning.
 
I used to think I didn't need safety gear when snowboarding. Then I moved to Alberta and went to the real hills. Now you wouldn't catch me without it. Only takes a split second for something to happen

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Buncha retarded bastards. Laws are for everyone not just a select few. Maybe the laws are not the problem, maybe your religion

Sent from my tablet using my paws
 
Boots said:
"Badesha's religion forbids him from putting on anything over his turban while outside his house."

That's cool, I'm going to invent a "religion" that says I can smoke pot whenever I want, and that I get to pay no taxes and that I can skip work whenever I want because a higher order tells me to -- because apparently in this Country you can do whatever you please so long as you fall back on the scapegoat of "OH BUT MY RELIGION TELLS ME TO DO IT, SECTION 2(a), HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVISTS COME TO MY AID, HUMAN RIGHTS CODE ETC.". What a ****ing joke.

I enjoy the multi-cultural mosaic society we have here in Canada, and I appreciate the Charter, in fact I appreciate both things so much that I took two courses on them in university. However, this **** is getting 100 percent absurd. People throwing around terms like "human rights violation" and "discrimination" like it's a god damn baseball on a Sunday morning at a park.

If that guy were to throw a better argument out there aside from "my religion tells me not to", then maybe I'd take him seriously and be a little more open-minded to his side. Guy just seems like he wants attention, and these lawyers jump on human rights "issues" like there's no tomorrow.

To some extent I actually want this guy to wear no helmet so that natural selection can take its course -- however, THANKFULLY I feel like this, oh so malicious, "human rights violation", was not even taken seriously because of s. 1 of the Charter. (I don't know the follow up on the case, and frankly I'm too lazy to read 250 pages of nonsense and whining).
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It is ridiculous. He lost. BC, however, passed such a law.
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