2022 MotoGP Discussion (No Links - Contains Spoilers!)
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Priller
Well-known member
Pretty sure the CFMoto bikes are actually rebadged KTMs. CFMoto is paying for the publicity and access to the data, presumably.
Moto2 is even less interesting than normal this year with nobody interesting looking to make the jump except possibly Ai Ogura to Nakagami's seat. Two fewer bikes on the grid, along with some surprise returns like Alex Marquez have created a logjam...
ah, one of those deals. KTM how has Gas Gas, KTM, Husqvarna and now CFMoto badges.
Priller
Well-known member
I think in the other cases, KTM owns GasGas and Husqvarna. CFMoto has basically licensed a bike, as far as I can tell, but KTM doesn't own them. They have joint ventures, and CFMoto makes some bits for KTM bikes, but they're separate entities.
Priller
Well-known member
Stuff like this always gets me in the feels. Maybe it's because kids and people with developmental challenges often see the world through a more innocent and pure lens, so it's a reminder to the rest of us why we became fans of the sport in the first place. Strip away the handbags at dawn and contract negotiations and PR spin, and it's just about the visceral thrill of watching supremely talented people do something truly amazing. Can't wait for Austria...
Robbo
Well-known member
Meanwhile, in today’s news…
the-race.com
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Sprint races set to be introduced for 2023 MotoGP season - The Race
MotoGP is set for its first considerable format shake-up in decades, with a proposal in place to introduce Saturday sprint races in 2023.
the-race.com
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Priller
Well-known member
Meanwhile, in today’s news…
Sprint races set to be introduced for 2023 MotoGP season - The Race
MotoGP is set for its first considerable format shake-up in decades, with a proposal in place to introduce Saturday sprint races in 2023.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Even being aware of my instinctive resistance to change, this seems like a supremely stupid idea. I just don't get the rationale. People don't have time to watch a 45 minute race, so also give them a 20 minute race to watch? It makes more sense in F1, as those races are way too long, and taking out the pitstop stuff changes the dynamic. MotoGP races are already sprint races, so this makes little sense.
I knew Dorna was thinking about crap like this based on the questions in that fan survey, but I'm surprised at how fast they're moving. No amount of gimmicks are going to replace the loss of their two biggest star riders, and I hope they don't ruin things in a desperate attempt to create fake drama...
Agree to disagree.
I *LOVE* the sprint race in WSBK.
A lot of motorcycle races have become like velodrome track cycling, where riders are just jostling for position at 70% effort, all in the name of tire preservation until the last couple of laps where they go balls out for the win.
Same goes for qualifying as well, with 90% of the time allotted putting in "banker laps", and it's basically an extended practice session till they put on the Q tires the last 2 minutes and go balls out once again. Do you remember when MotoGP qualifying was an hour long? You could walk away and come back for the last 10 minutes and not miss a single thing.
Cue the sprint race where there's no fear of tires losing grip at three-quarters race distance. It's just 10 laps of balls-out, elbows-out, fairing-bashing racing at 100% max effort, multiple passes each and every lap, from the time the lights go out till the checkered flag.
I love it!
Hmm, that is interesting. I could imagine one of the consequences might be that younger/midpack riders being more willing to throw caution to the wind in the sprint race to snag a victory, while championship contenders might be more conservative because the big championship points would be on Sunday.
It presumably would also mean that FP4 practice would be lost, which is where teams usually work on their race pace setup.
It presumably would also mean that FP4 practice would be lost, which is where teams usually work on their race pace setup.
Winales_2017
Well-known member
Dorna is going to Dorna: the simple truth is they are not addressing the underlying issues behind not having much engagement outside of it's high barrier of entry and instead just doubled the amount in order to justify the costs and expenses. Their web platform and UX sucks but they'd rather add another race than address that?
This really goes to show just how out of touch they are:
Same tire and engine allocation, and supposedly no cost increase likely means we will see lots of dead sessions since they can't justify wasting tires or putting excess mileage on race engines not to mention the greater risk exposure . I'm not into WSBK, I just don't find it engageing and I have tried to watch the Super Poles and that still didn't keep my interest even during the month break. With that said, I think the riders are going to have make DORNA pay for this. The arrogance is quite palpable, and I'm kind of surprised by Hureve, but I'm guessing his GasGas money will take care of him in the end.
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caje
Well-known member
100% agreed. Seems like the idea was pretty universally hated when announced and I just don't get it. WSBK sprint races are crazy entertaining and it's just what MotoGP needs.
I must be missing something. A lot of pundits point the issue of race quality to the aero of the bikes, which are creating dirty air which makes passing more difficult and is putting more pressure on the front tires.
I will withhold judgement on the sprint race, but it seems that they are trying to fix the wrong problem.
I will withhold judgement on the sprint race, but it seems that they are trying to fix the wrong problem.
Priller
Well-known member
Here’s my objections to the sprint race:
- The current qualifying format is already exciting on the Saturday, with riders dialing up the pace as the session go along. This takes away from that.
- MotoGP is already extremely limited on soft tire allocation, and nobody seems to have a plan for adding a set to compensate for this race.
- Because of the existing QP system, teams are already limited on sessions to set up for the race. FP4 was the one session where they could focus on a 20-odd lap setup without it impacting other items. Replacing that with a race means we’ll often see gimped bikes on the Sunday race that aren’t as fast as they could be.
- Due to the above, factories with easy to set up bikes are rewarded for the above reason, teams with difficult to set up bikes are punished. This will benefit Yamaha and hurt Ducati as things stand (though this may be reversed by whatever they decide for fuel as noted below).
- MotoGP is not WSBK. 2-3 seconds faster per lap may not sound like much, but that’s an eternity in racing. Asking more of riders and crews who are already at the limit only serves to dilute the true race on Sunday. Any racer who has raced both will tell you how much more physical GP racing is.
- Compare the NFL to the NHL. More isn’t necessarily better. Fewer events makes the events themselves more important. Flooding a season with races makes each one that much less important. There’s a blinkered view that because of this year, WSBK somehow has an inherent superiority for excitement. WSBK is going through a couple of great seasons due to a variety of factors, but there were a number of really boring ones before that. Also, the volume of races there has little to do with the excitement.
- Tire management is a crucial racer skill. Going all-out for 10 laps makes that skill less important. Personally, I like the tension that comes from knowing that a rider with good tire management and a silky style (Bastianini) is creeping up on someone who tends to burn their wick early (Martin, Zarco).
- Nobody is clear on what the fuel allowance will be. If there is no limit, Ducati may dominate with the sheer power of their engine. Also, if there is no limit, things could get dangerous, as the bikes are already pushing safety at a lot of classic tracks. If there is a limit, who decides what it is and when will the teams be able to test for it?
- It’s the biggest change to the format of GP’s since they started in 1949 or whenever it was, all out of a knee-jerk desperation to match explosive F1 growth (partly born out of ‘reality’ TV and celebrity/wealth obsession) and a fear about declining attendance in places where Rossi was king (i.e. Italy and the UK). Attendance is not down in the Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Spain, Indonesia, France, etc. The whole thing feels entirely unnecessary.
- It’s a sideshow. Unless you’re attending the race, there’s already plenty of stuff to watch on a typical race weekend. I’ll often watch Q1, Q2, and the race. Including prep time and post-race celebrations, that’s already well over two hours. I’m not looking for more time spent watching GPs in a week.
- Nothing has been planned, and huge chunks of stakeholders haven’t been consulted (riders, crew chiefs, support staff), yet instead of doing a test run at some tracks, they’ve gone all-in on doing it every race weekend. If it doesn’t work well, it’ll have ruined a season. It all feels like a product of overreaction.
More than anything, I don’t like the idea that already over-limited testing and setup time is even more limited. It’s not what the best racing is about. Giving teams time to dial in a setup is what makes it a team sport. Making setup time so hard to come bay makes everything even more random and a product of luck. If that’s what you want, watch NASCAR. I prefer to watch carefully dialed in bikes performing at their absolute pinnacle with the best riders in the world absolutely focused on that one event. This only takes away from that, all in the name of spectacle.
But I’m also aware that I’m in the minority here. MCN recently did a Twitter poll, and 63% were in favour. I'll watch, for sure. But if it negatively affects the Sunday racing, I'll be ******.
- The current qualifying format is already exciting on the Saturday, with riders dialing up the pace as the session go along. This takes away from that.
- MotoGP is already extremely limited on soft tire allocation, and nobody seems to have a plan for adding a set to compensate for this race.
- Because of the existing QP system, teams are already limited on sessions to set up for the race. FP4 was the one session where they could focus on a 20-odd lap setup without it impacting other items. Replacing that with a race means we’ll often see gimped bikes on the Sunday race that aren’t as fast as they could be.
- Due to the above, factories with easy to set up bikes are rewarded for the above reason, teams with difficult to set up bikes are punished. This will benefit Yamaha and hurt Ducati as things stand (though this may be reversed by whatever they decide for fuel as noted below).
- MotoGP is not WSBK. 2-3 seconds faster per lap may not sound like much, but that’s an eternity in racing. Asking more of riders and crews who are already at the limit only serves to dilute the true race on Sunday. Any racer who has raced both will tell you how much more physical GP racing is.
- Compare the NFL to the NHL. More isn’t necessarily better. Fewer events makes the events themselves more important. Flooding a season with races makes each one that much less important. There’s a blinkered view that because of this year, WSBK somehow has an inherent superiority for excitement. WSBK is going through a couple of great seasons due to a variety of factors, but there were a number of really boring ones before that. Also, the volume of races there has little to do with the excitement.
- Tire management is a crucial racer skill. Going all-out for 10 laps makes that skill less important. Personally, I like the tension that comes from knowing that a rider with good tire management and a silky style (Bastianini) is creeping up on someone who tends to burn their wick early (Martin, Zarco).
- Nobody is clear on what the fuel allowance will be. If there is no limit, Ducati may dominate with the sheer power of their engine. Also, if there is no limit, things could get dangerous, as the bikes are already pushing safety at a lot of classic tracks. If there is a limit, who decides what it is and when will the teams be able to test for it?
- It’s the biggest change to the format of GP’s since they started in 1949 or whenever it was, all out of a knee-jerk desperation to match explosive F1 growth (partly born out of ‘reality’ TV and celebrity/wealth obsession) and a fear about declining attendance in places where Rossi was king (i.e. Italy and the UK). Attendance is not down in the Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Spain, Indonesia, France, etc. The whole thing feels entirely unnecessary.
- It’s a sideshow. Unless you’re attending the race, there’s already plenty of stuff to watch on a typical race weekend. I’ll often watch Q1, Q2, and the race. Including prep time and post-race celebrations, that’s already well over two hours. I’m not looking for more time spent watching GPs in a week.
- Nothing has been planned, and huge chunks of stakeholders haven’t been consulted (riders, crew chiefs, support staff), yet instead of doing a test run at some tracks, they’ve gone all-in on doing it every race weekend. If it doesn’t work well, it’ll have ruined a season. It all feels like a product of overreaction.
More than anything, I don’t like the idea that already over-limited testing and setup time is even more limited. It’s not what the best racing is about. Giving teams time to dial in a setup is what makes it a team sport. Making setup time so hard to come bay makes everything even more random and a product of luck. If that’s what you want, watch NASCAR. I prefer to watch carefully dialed in bikes performing at their absolute pinnacle with the best riders in the world absolutely focused on that one event. This only takes away from that, all in the name of spectacle.
But I’m also aware that I’m in the minority here. MCN recently did a Twitter poll, and 63% were in favour. I'll watch, for sure. But if it negatively affects the Sunday racing, I'll be ******.
Priller
Well-known member
From what I can see, a big part of the problem is the current tires weren't developed with the current level of aero. Michelin is trying to develop new tires, but because Dorna has so severely limited testing (to keep costs down, not a bad intention), the teams won't spend time helping them get sorted out. Instead of gimmicks, Dorna needs to set up significant test time where all the teams are forced to use the new tires so that Michelin can develop something that is less affected by dirty air, and the teams can all develop bikes that work with the new tires. I still don't think there's a crisis (racing last year was great, and this year has still been pretty good), but I do think there's a chance that the Japanese factories are getting left behind, which freaks people out.
Priller
Well-known member
Bastianini gets to ride in red next year:
https://motomatters.com/news/2022/08/26/enea_bastianini_confirmed_in_factory.html\
A mild surprise, considering how much they seem to value Martin, but Martin is on the newer bike and despite fast QP and early race pace, is struggling to finish strong. Bagnaia may not be too happy, considering how Enea was talking (gentle) smack earlier in the year about how Pecco wanted a more docile teammate.
We wait for confirmation on Mir at Repsol and whatever KTM is going to do with Oliviera and Fernandez. Apparently they have some hooks in both riders contractually, so it's not a simple switch to RNF. Gardner and DBinder have both said they're not coming back in 2023, so something must be settled. Maybe KTM wants Acosta early on the 'GasGas'...
https://motomatters.com/news/2022/08/26/enea_bastianini_confirmed_in_factory.html\
A mild surprise, considering how much they seem to value Martin, but Martin is on the newer bike and despite fast QP and early race pace, is struggling to finish strong. Bagnaia may not be too happy, considering how Enea was talking (gentle) smack earlier in the year about how Pecco wanted a more docile teammate.
We wait for confirmation on Mir at Repsol and whatever KTM is going to do with Oliviera and Fernandez. Apparently they have some hooks in both riders contractually, so it's not a simple switch to RNF. Gardner and DBinder have both said they're not coming back in 2023, so something must be settled. Maybe KTM wants Acosta early on the 'GasGas'...
BigEvilDoer
Well-known member
Oliveria and Fernandez want out of KTM. KTM is obliging from everything I had read so far.
Binder stays, Espargaro to Tech3, Miller to Factory KTM. Leaves 1 spot Oliveria (who has publicly stated he will refuse a reassignment to Tech3) or Acosta gets promoted to Tech3.
I really wish KTM would figure things out the way Aprilia did. Aprilia ended up with a full on ground up rebuild. Maybe it’s time for KTM to do the same?
Binder stays, Espargaro to Tech3, Miller to Factory KTM. Leaves 1 spot Oliveria (who has publicly stated he will refuse a reassignment to Tech3) or Acosta gets promoted to Tech3.
I really wish KTM would figure things out the way Aprilia did. Aprilia ended up with a full on ground up rebuild. Maybe it’s time for KTM to do the same?
