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2020 MotoGP Discussion (NO LINKS)
- Thread starter BigEvilDoer
- Start date
Winales_2017
Well-known member
Congrats to Mir, and Suzuki. They played to their strengths and made the most of a very turbulent year.
I wonder what Marc's recovery will be like after this 3rd surgery. Its sad to say but I kind of felt that despite giving the benefit of the doubt to Dr. Mir's on his work on his humorous from that picture (I'm not a surgeon after all) I posted from his social media in the begining of the season and how it made me worried as it looked poorly done to me. I related it to a bad furniture repair job done in a crappy hotel I stayed at once in and sadly my intution turned out to be correct. Obviously Marc returning to ride the following week at Jerez 2 was mistake, but after reading a detailed response from an orthepdic surgery this week about the work done, in short it was overkill with the plates and screws, its quite clear that it was very bad and could have long lasting effects.
Marc may never be the same ever again and the atrophy to his bone, muscle and possibility of the nerve damage being permanent is real. As a fan of Marc we all knew the injuries would be what caught up to him before the competition would and we wanted him to never change, but somehow we all assumed he'd still be a top rider even after this injury as he continued to decimate the field making them seem like they were in completely different categories entirely. I think this is another sobering part of 2020 that makes us all realize that we're all vulnerable to these occurrence, regardless of who you are and however unlikely they may seem at the time. The near brush with death by the Yamaha team at Austria 1/2 being another wake-up call, that I think led to Crutchlow finally deciding to hang up his leathers as a racer.
I wonder what Marc's recovery will be like after this 3rd surgery. Its sad to say but I kind of felt that despite giving the benefit of the doubt to Dr. Mir's on his work on his humorous from that picture (I'm not a surgeon after all) I posted from his social media in the begining of the season and how it made me worried as it looked poorly done to me. I related it to a bad furniture repair job done in a crappy hotel I stayed at once in and sadly my intution turned out to be correct. Obviously Marc returning to ride the following week at Jerez 2 was mistake, but after reading a detailed response from an orthepdic surgery this week about the work done, in short it was overkill with the plates and screws, its quite clear that it was very bad and could have long lasting effects.
Marc may never be the same ever again and the atrophy to his bone, muscle and possibility of the nerve damage being permanent is real. As a fan of Marc we all knew the injuries would be what caught up to him before the competition would and we wanted him to never change, but somehow we all assumed he'd still be a top rider even after this injury as he continued to decimate the field making them seem like they were in completely different categories entirely. I think this is another sobering part of 2020 that makes us all realize that we're all vulnerable to these occurrence, regardless of who you are and however unlikely they may seem at the time. The near brush with death by the Yamaha team at Austria 1/2 being another wake-up call, that I think led to Crutchlow finally deciding to hang up his leathers as a racer.
J_F
Guest
don't think there are any doctors here?
the plate and a dozen drywall screws
maybe that was okay?? I don't know
given time to heal and take all that hardware out
trying to race in that condition a few days later was nuts
should never have been allowed
I do hope he's able to return to form
would have made this season a lot more competitive
would he have been able to make this year's bike work with that new rear tire?
the plate and a dozen drywall screws
maybe that was okay?? I don't know
given time to heal and take all that hardware out
trying to race in that condition a few days later was nuts
should never have been allowed
I do hope he's able to return to form
would have made this season a lot more competitive
would he have been able to make this year's bike work with that new rear tire?
Winales_2017
Well-known member
This was on another site, I read it with slight skepticism, then I went back to the image I posted and remembered how many screws were drilled into the bone and how that slanted one stood out to me at the time. Again, not being a surgeon I defer entirely to people who actually operate on Humans to substantiate those earlier concerns.
And you're right, Marc was foolish to come back so early, and while its easy to say in hindsight it was a mistake the reality is that DORNA and the Medical Team should have had more stringent tests before they let him get on a bike, especially once we all saw those images he posted. I don't care how many pushups you're able to do it should be mandatory to sit out at least a few races if you have that much metal supporting your bone that you need to hang on and throttle/control a 300+hp bike.
Its really scary to think this really may have already ruined the career of what was on steady course to be it's most illustrious rider in all of GP History because of a rush to allow him to get back on the bike. I'm not writing Marc off, he is honestly the toughest SOB I have even seen ride on 2 wheels; when he crashes at 150mph runs to the pit and then sets pole and lap records... I seriously think all the hype behind him is not only warranted but that I want to see how far it will take him. In short: if anyone can recover it's him. But I seriously now have this sense of dread that this may have been more than his body can handle anymore and that he will never be the same.
I'm originally a 'cager' with a background in Time attack and GT motorsports, and I only got into motorcycles in my 30s and it was clear that bikers are a different breed entirely and are willing to endure way more pain and injuries just to get back on a bike and get some track time, even as privateers in nothing more than club racing series.
I got my endorsement from a school run by an ex AMA rider (and total Rossi fanboy that hated JLO) and a professional MX guy as my instructors, the AMA guy had his spine fused; he rode like that for a season before he had to call it quits as he was no longer competitive after that. The MX guy who was the most extreme in my opinion had actually gotten Lyme disease 5 years into his career after helping design the layout of a new track somewhere in the middle of nowehere in the E. Coast for his sponsor and had been riding for something like 12 years that way.
Suffice it to say you guys are a different breed to me, and I admire bikers a great deal for their level of commitment to jump back on what are essentially high speed death machines with no real hesitation, often haphazardly, especially after the damage I still deal with from a relatively low speed low-side from street riding that messed up 3 of my vertebrae.
But the thought that injury was possible at the highest level, with Dorna's Medical Team and HRC's golden goose makes me wonder if their will have to be a body to keep racers from self-sabotaging their careers moving forward--I'm convinced getting back on the bike was Marc's decision and no one else's. Like one that is mandated in their contract to ensure the proper period of time off for extensive surgery is successful. Cal's arm after his botched pump surgery looked horrible, the 2nd one was somehow worse, and the swelling on his forearm after he raced was cartoonish and yet he kept getting back on the bike to try and secure a ride only to finally admit that he had to retire and be a test rider position.
The younger generation that looks up to Marc is probably willing to bet it all just to have had the ability to ride against him in his prime, Jorge Martin's Moto 3 championship was another one that really made question if these guys are capable of seeing past the next checkered flag let alone think about the long term damage they are inflicting on themselves. Martin rode with a fractured arm and continued to do so even until he finished the season and won his Moto 3 title, only to spend 1 year in Moto2 and get moved up to GP. He could have easily had another crash that season and caused permanent damage to his arm, I think it was his Right side.
Was never a fan of Marcs personality and still can't forget how he screwed Rossi over. But as a fan of the sport I really do hope Marc recovers fully and comes back at 100%. He definitely is one of the greatest out there. This year has been a real interesting year in the race for the MotoGP winner. But I really wonder , now matter how good the current riders are . When MM is out there , he make them look like second rate riders. As much as I hate to admit it. MM is beyond anyone else out there. Wish him well and hopes he comes back healthy.
J_F
Guest
edit: there's a spoiler below
stop reading if you are for some reason reading this thread and haven't seen the race
fun race
I like that track, the HP advantage of some of the bikes seems to make little difference
hills and tight turns, no long straights, should keep it on the circuit
new track to most of the racers and new, black pavement was interesting
seasoned racers blowing the race line and 2 other bikes playing follow the leader
great performance from Oliveira
pole, great start, hammer down the whole way
didn't put a tire wrong
great outing for the home town boy
Yamaha, ugh, lots of work to do
the champ? hello?
where are you?
asterisk championship
one thing (racer) would have made that more fun
MM would have destroyed that track
stop reading if you are for some reason reading this thread and haven't seen the race
fun race
I like that track, the HP advantage of some of the bikes seems to make little difference
hills and tight turns, no long straights, should keep it on the circuit
new track to most of the racers and new, black pavement was interesting
seasoned racers blowing the race line and 2 other bikes playing follow the leader
great performance from Oliveira
pole, great start, hammer down the whole way
didn't put a tire wrong
great outing for the home town boy
Yamaha, ugh, lots of work to do
the champ? hello?
where are you?
asterisk championship
one thing (racer) would have made that more fun
MM would have destroyed that track
Winales_2017
Well-known member
Is he really wrong, though is the question.
Name one other rider who has contributed more to the DNA of that Yamaha than JLO in the past 10 years and made it competitive on Sundays. Mav wins the off-season championship and Fabio can make heads turn on Saturday, but JLO remains the last champion Yamaha have had during the Marquez domination era for a reason. COVID and Yamaha placing preference on Japanese test riders/tracks is a (poor) management decision, granted JLO could have kept fitter ahead of his test at Portugal but this was during a pandemic and limited riding opportunities for a European during several lockdowns. People forget even Zarco had a hard time getting to the tests ahead of the opening races because of the lockdown and border restrictions coming into Spain from France and he was only allowed to come in last minute on a DORNA exclusive deal Carmello made with the local government in Jerez.
I personally think its a mistake and a lost opportunity for Yamaha to improve upon from what was as a factory a strong season (Yamaha bikes won 1/2 of all the races and with amazing reliability), and as much as I think Crutchlow is a mentally strong rider he cannot compare to how well JLO and Yamaha go together, which is why he wasn't doing much on a tech3 (he only got his 2-3 race wins on the LCR after a decade on the GP grid) while alongside JLO who was winning championships on the works Yamaha fighting in the alien era.
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I don't really think JLO really had any interest in developing a bike for the guy that took his spot in Yamaha. I bet there's more to the story than what we hear.
As far as where the Yamaha riders are. I see only Franco Morbidelli producing., Vinales has been a huge disappointment. Fabio seems like a flash in pants. Similar to Vinalles all hype no real outcomes in the end. Win a few races here and there but no consistency. Rossi well he just remains competitive. Not expecting much. More hopefully than anything. Who knows maybe going down to the Yamaha SRT team and being partnered with Franco might boast his performance.
As far as where the Yamaha riders are. I see only Franco Morbidelli producing., Vinales has been a huge disappointment. Fabio seems like a flash in pants. Similar to Vinalles all hype no real outcomes in the end. Win a few races here and there but no consistency. Rossi well he just remains competitive. Not expecting much. More hopefully than anything. Who knows maybe going down to the Yamaha SRT team and being partnered with Franco might boast his performance.
Priller
Well-known member
Lorenzo was the perfect guy for that Yamaha on those Bridgestones. Those tires rewarded a very specific temperature range with incredible grip, and Lorenzo's greatest strength was maintaining high corner speed laps with clockwork consistency through an entire race. I don't think it's a coincidence that his performance dropped off when Michelin came back in. Marquez thrives (thrived?) on tires that move around a bit more, but Lorenzo never made the transition.
Assuming the above to be true, why would you keep him on at Yamaha? I'm sure he wasn't cheap, he's obviously not a very good team player, and he can't work with the tires. According to the guys on Front End Chatter, Yamaha was showing up to rounds without even their gearing right, which suggests the testing wasn't even close to race pace...
Winales_2017
Well-known member
Perhaps, but Fabio and JLO were actually getting along really well during the testing in 2019. There were several clips of him and Fabio discussing the riding style to take on the Yamaha to get the most out of it. JLO was an incredily difficult person to work with, and its well documented, but he was nearly maniacal about how precise the settings had to be to extrac tthe most out of the bike. Hence how rather boring his race victories were, he proabably spent the most on setup than any rider of that era until Marc showed up. I'm not dismissing his reluctance to build a bike for the opposition, I'm sure he wanted to continue riding and when his wildcards were pulled he may have lost interest in the project if it wasn't going to end with a ride.
I cannot help but think of that tired trope about 'you're only as good as your last race,' but it really has more to do with how short-lived people's memories are. Mav and Fabio both had the 2020 bike, whereas Franco had the 2019 bike, which for whatever reason wasn't as competitive on the tracks they went to, or were... and then the competeion got a better set up. But let me remind you that Franco, even by his own admission, got destroyed by Fabio last year. Those two are amazing riders, I've been saying for at least 2 seasons that Mav needs to move on to a Ducati if he has any chance of getting a championship before retirement. But Fabio is defintely going to do it on a Yamaha. it's just a matter of time, he is super young (21?), younger than Mir, so the pressure to succeed iwith back to back wins n Marc's absence coupled with poor evolution and development from Yamaha meant he fell to the back. I have every confidence he will be back stronger next year. Hopefully Franco will be there, too as I think we haven't seen everything from him either.
I think Yamaha knew what they were getting into, which is why they offered him not only a test role but wildcards to continue the development on the track. Also, wasn't he only a few tenths of the record at one of the Sepang tests 2019?
Team player... that's debatable, sure him and Rossi and Dovi never got on while teammates, but I think internally at Yamaha he was still highly prized and made accommodations where needed. Which is why Yamaha picked him up as soon as he announced he left HRC. I don't what might have come from the 2020 bike had the season played out as it was supposed to, but clearly the 2019 is the platform to build off of so with any luck they'll take the 2020's bikes strengths and incorporate into that and we see it fare better next season.
As for the gearing, I seem to recall Mav losing patiene with his crew after getting pole position and the mechanics were taking apart his fairings to get into something... then they made the wrong call on the rear tires. I'm just not sure that (internally) Yamaha was doing to well with so many b2b races and it took a toll on them, I think most of Mav's mechanical crew were missing by Valencia due to covid.
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He's hoping Marquez makes a full (but long) recovery. He's the class of the field but it would be nice not to have him crushing everyone's dreams right out of the gate. Maybe he can come back after the summer break and make a dramatic comeback. Let some of the youngins have more glory.
I may be wrong here. But I thought Franco was on a 2019 bike this season? Yet he still managed to finish second overall. This tells me one of two things . The newer Yamaha bikes could be worse off and JLOS development of the bike was no where to be seen. That could be due to Yamaha or JLO. If JLO was to come back he should of went back to Ducati. At the end of his contract with them he was winning races. He had that bike dialed in. I think the best thing for Franco is stay where he is,. Get some more experience while not under the same expectations or pressure of being on a factory team.. Rossi will be there to offer his guidance if asked. I see Franco as the future of Yamaha. If he wasn't taken out this year by other riders in their crashes... recall the one with Zarco. He would of won the title this year.
Priller
Well-known member
Lorenzo is legendary for being one of the biggest egomaniacal douchenozzles in a sport full of outsized egos and competition obsessives. This is almost a universal opinion from those in the paddock who aren't on his payroll. Respected voices like Mat Oxley, David Emmett, Si Hargreaves, etc. have all given their opinion based on first-hand experience. You can get away with that behaviour when you're winning, but patience gets thin fast if you're not performing anymore.
Yamaha picked him up because he's a five time world champion, and dropped him because he is a long way from being that rider now. Taking public digs at the guy who took your job (but said absolutely nothing about Lorenzo!) only reinforces the opinions above. If you're a big factory, why would you hire such a PR disaster?
Contrast him with Pedrosa, who has helped make that KTM competitive and kept his mouth shut. Maybe Honda should hire him back to find a bike that works for anyone not named Marc Marquez, as he may not ever be the same...
Winales_2017
Well-known member
He was, and I mentioned that in my response.
I think it was a combination of both, rather than solely one or the other. I think the direction for development was going really well prior to COVID with everything going well in pres-season teating, unfortunately things took a turn for the worst when Europe went into lockdown and testing was halted, the Season was postponed and his Wildcars were shelved.
I would have agreed, but as seen with Dovi, Ducati are a cluster **** when it comes to management; having lived and work with Italian superiors in Italy I can attest that is more often the case. It's not a sustainable working relationship in the best of times and outright toxic in the rest.
I worked at a place that was frequented by the Ferrari (strada) guys from the Factory in Maranello and all but the most fanatical Enzo worshiping guy(s) would jump ship to go work at Lamborghini in a heartbeat--only one actually did.
JLO is a petulant brat with many needs and possibly some mental health issues; but as discussed before, when he is winning its all forgotten and forgiven because he is simply untouchable. He needed to be on that Blue bike, competing for top 5 or a podium to get the most out of him--Yamaha knowing he'd never be a real championship threat.. To me it simply looks like an unfinished and abondoned project due to COIVD, but perhaps also some other internal things we will never be made aware of.
Agreed. Franco is perhaps in the best position to say, 'THIS IS WHAT THE NEW BIKE IS MISSING' the question is, will they listen to him? Mav is supposedly who Yamaha have decided to back now that Rossi is out of the works Team with Fabio being higher on the hierarchy given his results these 2 seasons.
As for winning the championship based on that, then you could rationalize why 1/2 the rid didn't win it 'if it only X had happened' since it was that kind of season.
Suffice to say, this season was immensely entertaining and gripping in an otherwise very unfortunate and perilous year in just about every other measure.
I'm glad Mir won as he was my pick after Mav to be able to actually challenge Marc since he was in Moto3, and I'm glad we saw many guys display what they're capable of with Marc gone... but a part of me feels that we were also going to have a reversion to the mean if/when Marc comes back healthy. How long that takes is anyone's guess, he still has 3 years on his contract, so he's not short on money and Redbull are still paying him for PR as I saw this last night and thought it was intresting how they only focused the camera above his shoulder covered by a hoodie and was not as animated (hand gestures) as he normally is whereas in today's DAZN interview he looks like his normal self, albiet still with a hoodie on:
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