2011 Moto GP?

^ this.

But to be fair, what Stoner hasn't demonstrated a lot of is racecraft. He may have it, as evidenced by the epic duel @ Laguna Seca in 08, but most of his wins have been runaways, leading from pole to flag.

With that I totally agree. I think it's not so much where he starts from (I think he could start last and perhaps still end up on the box by passing most of the field), it's rather the difference whether he's on the move forward through the field being the fastest bike or dealing with someone who is fast or close enough as him when he runs into him at the track. JL summed it up well recently when he said that ha has yet to beat Rossi face to face in the last lap. He's done that to Stoner and Pedrosa and Rossi has done that to, probably, most of the guys incl. JL. I don't think Stoner has it in him ... yet. If he does, the opportunity has not presented itself yet to my knowledge.

Now, I would not say that Stoner is boring to watch .... not with his style. But would I prefer to watch him battle it out for a couple of laps with JL or Rossi face to face? Sure I would. But it it happens so seldom nowadays in racing. Usually the guy who makes a pass is so much faster, that the other guy has nothing left for him, so the passer is gonzo alonso. Moto2 has been pretty good that way though, not so MotoGP, especially when you consider the alliens only battling it out between themselves. I don't remember last time when I saw the order changing several times for a couple of laps at the head of the pack ... it just doesn't happen anymore in the premier class like it used to in 500s era.
 
While Stoner is blindly quick on a bike, he just doesn't put on a good show. He does deserve his championship crown this year though - and being on a Honda has nothing to do with it. Anyone who says differently hasn't really been watching the season with an objective eye.

100% agree.

Actually feel the same way about Vettel in F1. Quick, most winning driver, but not really all that exciting to watch.
 
Isn't it logical though that somebody really fast (faster than rest of the field), possibly in the fastest vehicles (Stoner, Vettel ...) will not be as fun to watch as some other guy who has to wrestle for every single position.

Give Stoner and Vettel a bit slower bike or a car and I am sure they will instantly become more exciting .... By that argument you could say that Rossi should have been exciting to watch this year ... well not so, at least not for me.

Do you like watching Simoncelli? You should (because he's reportedly very seeked commodity and exciting to watch), he's not as fast as Stoner though ....

I am not surprised that Stoner approaches the races as business. For him it's not about how many people like him or his style of winning, it's about how many times do I win ... the most wins should get me the title. Everything else is just a talk.
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but the '07 Ducati didn't use the carbon frame...... I think maybe they started with the carbon swingarm then?

Maybe a fair comparison would be having Rossi on the '07 bike.

When the carbon frame came into play, Stoner was complaining about the front end, and didn't win any championships after that with Ducati.

Obviously it's an issue with the bike if 3 WC riders haven't won on it since '07.
 
He joined Ducati in 2007 and I don't have to tell you what has happened in that year. Yeah people constantly argue that the Duc was the best bike 07, like the Honda is the best bike this year. While probably true (there were riders with identical machinery), Stoner was capable of adjusting to a new bike ... something Rossi is clearly not able to do (Stoner has won on the same bike 3 races at the end of the season). Nor is his crew, incl. JB able to understand and set the bike up, which is probably huge part of the problem and hence them testing 1million of different parts.

Rossi fans have a hard time swallowing this fact that there's perhaps someone new who has shown more skill (not more titles over all!) in recent 800cc era than their own GOAT.

in 2007 I believe the tires were just as important as everything else. After that dominant season the Ducati was surpassed by the others.....did it develop in the wrong direction because of the engineers, Stoner, test riders, or a combination of all? We will never know, but the lack of front end feel has plagued Ducati since 2008, and It never won a championship since.

From a purely statistical standpoint, Stoner was newish in 2007, he is now 25 and if he wins all the races left This season he will have 30 something victories (34?)......rossi at the same age had 42. I'm not even sure who has more victories since 2007?

All things come to an end, not sure if Rossi will win anymore races, hopefuully next year we see some good scraps.
 
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in 2007 I believe the tires were just as important as everything else. After that dominant season the Ducati was surpassed by the others.....did it develop in the wrong direction because of the engineers, Stoner, test riders, or a combination of all? We will never know, but the lack of front end feel has plagued Ducati since 2008, and It never won a championship since.

From a purely statistical standpoint, Stoner was newish in 2007, he is now 25 and if he wins all the races left This season he will have 30 something victories (34?)......rossi at the same age had 42. I'm not even sure who has more victories since 2007?

All things come to an end, not sure if Rossi will win anymore races, hopefuully next year we see some good scraps.

I wouldnt call Ducati or Casey a fail , after 07.
08 was very close for Casey with 6 wins and 11 podiums.
09 was 4 wins and 8 podiums even though he didnt start and or finish 5 rounds.
10 was 3 wins and 9 podiums.

Ducati has had the second biggest # of bikes and riders out there each yr and only Casey can win and poduim so much.
After being on a difficult bike to ride for so long , and getting on a Honda thats more sorted, (and physically more his size (thanks Dani) ) I cant see anyone hanging with him for the next couple yrs,.
 
I wouldnt call Ducati or Casey a fail , after 07.
08 was very close for Casey with 6 wins and 11 podiums.
09 was 4 wins and 8 podiums even though he didnt start and or finish 5 rounds.
10 was 3 wins and 9 podiums.

,.

fail is a strong word, but your numbers show a distinct pattern of decreasing victories with each year as the others improved.
 
Was a few pages behind on this thread.... Just caught up now... But seriously, Max Biaggi a nobody?!? Wake up man.
 
fail is a strong word, but your numbers show a distinct pattern of decreasing victories with each year as the others improved.

Admitedly, but can you just imagine what the team owners were saying to their crews after the slaughter of 07.
The Ducati/Stoner combo was definately not in the cards for everyone else.
"Caught with pants down" is an understatement.
Of coarse everyone scrambled to prevent that from happening again and the their elevated efforts (and $) showed in the next seasons.

Im a little unimpressed with Pedrosa though. Hes been fed the very best of everything from Honda ( the bike and complete effort was totally designed for HIM) for a few yrs now and hasnt strung together a championship winning season.
Stoner walks in and "OOMP, tharre it is" ..

As far as Biaggi, hes an incredible competitor and racer.
Even considering his roots, ( he never even LOOKED at a motorcycle till almost 20yrs old, while Rossi and almost all others were on 2 wheels just after weened off the boob ) he hung "it" out in impressive fashion against Rossi when Rossi was at his very best, not many ppl on earth can say this.
(Nice #1 on that Aprilia WSB)
Biaggis story and success is one the most impressive of all in the modern era even if he hasnt won a MotoGP championship.
I will give one very impressive thing to Rossi tho, staying power.
Ppl have come , challenged in pretty darn good fashion, and left, but Rossi has stayed.
 
Skeletor.

Jorge-Lorenzo-finger-Phillip-Island.jpg


Pedrosa is a mouse.

Wish Simoncelli could lose some weight/height. =)
 
in 2007 I believe the tires were just as important as everything else. After that dominant season the Ducati was surpassed by the others.....did it develop in the wrong direction because of the engineers, Stoner, test riders, or a combination of all? We will never know, but the lack of front end feel has plagued Ducati since 2008, and It never won a championship since.

And what about the wrist problem and lactose intolerance, either one kept him out for very long (and him being the guy who could ride the bike and win, kinds of put a stopper to your chances to win ...). Livio Suppo has said himself many times ... Ducati hugely underestimated how good of a rider Stoner was when he was with Ducati and how bad the bike was (except for the engine ... LOL). Ducati thought all along it is the bike doing 80% of the great job, while it probably was the other way around. Hence they declined his every request to do something about the front end. Now, the whole Italy is trying to fix the front end, yet that is showing not to be enough, for now ...

From a purely statistical standpoint, Stoner was newish in 2007, he is now 25 and if he wins all the races left This season he will have 30 something victories (34?)......rossi at the same age had 42. I'm not even sure who has more victories since 2007?

All that proves is that Rossi started winning in MotoGP earlier than Stoner. Not sure how that is relevant. Rossi success is not disputed here, it's rather the credit people are not willing to give to Stoner, even though he cleaned up in 800cc. If it wasn't the two medical issues who knows how many more titles would he have from 800cc class ... Since 2007 it's Stoner's 32 vs Rossi's 21 victories I believe.

All things come to an end, not sure if Rossi will win anymore races, hopefuully next year we see some good scraps.

I hope he does win again, I want to see what he can do on the Ducati and I also want to see how much better can Stoner get when pushed, especially by Rossi. The two guys hate each other, because they are such different personalities.
 
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To all this conversation about Stoner being better than Rossi because he won on a Duc, I am just going to ask that you figure out when they changed tire manufactures in Motogp and read what the new tire characteristics do to the Short Frame/engine Positioning combination in relation to front end feel on the Ducatti then ask yourself why the Duc on WSB does so much better than in Motogp.

Once you have figure all that out, then you will be more informed and not just talking out of your *** :)
 
Skeletor.

Jorge-Lorenzo-finger-Phillip-Island.jpg


Pedrosa is a mouse.

Wish Simoncelli could lose some weight/height. =)
Lorenzo is such a pussy, he should have been riding that afternoon, that was just a little scratch.......face palm
 
To all this conversation about Stoner being better than Rossi because he won on a Duc, I am just going to ask that you figure out when they changed tire manufactures in Motogp and read what the new tire characteristics do to the Short Frame/engine Positioning combination in relation to front end feel on the Ducatti then ask yourself why the Duc on WSB does so much better than in Motogp.

Once you have figure all that out, then you will be more informed and not just talking out of your *** :)

Sounds like youve got it all figured out. You should be in Italy right now. ;)
A wsb Duc is not a MotoGP Duc, both have 2 wheels are about as far as it goes for similarities.
 
Sounds like youve got it all figured out. You should be in Italy right now. ;)
A wsb Duc is not a MotoGP Duc, both have 2 wheels are about as far as it goes for similarities.

THat might be the case and the WSB machine might have a 400cc displacement advantage. However just for giggles if you look at the numbers... the top end of the WSB field is about 2 seconds slower than the top end of the GP field at various tracks.
 
Sounds like youve got it all figured out. You should be in Italy right now. ;)
A wsb Duc is not a MotoGP Duc, both have 2 wheels are about as far as it goes for similarities.

Yea and the most significant difference is the tire brand which is not part of the actual bike.

Sorry, there was no movie version, you are going to have to read ;-)

http://www.motomatters.com/analysis/2011/08/08/the_trouble_with_the_ducati_desmosedici_.html

Read the article but if not then here is a piece of it.

It The Rider?
The biggest variable which has changed between 2010 and 2011 is the departure of Casey Stoner and the arrival of Valentino Rossi. Though Rossi is now riding a heavily modified machine (the GP11.1, as it has been dubbed, is a destroked version of the 2012 Desmosedici, its capacity reduced to 800cc to make it legal for 2011), the bike he rode until Assen was not much changed from the bike Stoner left behind at Valencia in 2010. The bike had a modified triple clamp, a slightly different swingarm, and a slightly revised front chassis. The biggest changes have been in the field of electronics, Rossi and his crew helping to provide a much more user-friendly engine response package, introduced after Estoril.
So if Stoner made the Ducati work, then surely the problem must be with Rossi, right? Though that might appear to be the logical conclusion, that grossly oversimplifies a complicated situation. Just 9 months ago, with a weakened shoulder that left him struggling, Rossi was still capable of winning races and scoring regular podiums. He was poetry to watch, flowing over the Yamaha M1 and able to put it just about where he wanted. In the 11 races after returning from the leg he broke at Mugello, and still struggling with the shoulder injury he picked up in a training crash in April, Rossi was on the podium 7 times, including 1 win. Riders simply do not lose that kind of speed over the winter break, not unless they suffer a career-threatening injury.
From the moment he swung his leg over the Ducati, Rossi was immediately miles off the pace. He ended the two-day test 1.7 seconds off the pace of the fastest man, Jorge Lorenzo. Three days earlier, in the race, Rossi's fastest lap had been just a few hundredths slower than Lorenzo's. Worse still, Rossi looked nothing like himself on the bike. Several observers commented that it was as if someone had sneaked into Rossi's motorhome, stolen his leathers and helmet, walked in through the back of the pits and onto the Ducati without anyone noticing he was not Rossi. At that first test in Valencia, Rossi looked like a journalist riding the bike, someone far less comfortable or able easing his way around the track.
Rossi was not the only rider to undergo an overnight transformation. Loris Capirossi jumped off the Rizla Suzuki and onto the Pramac Ducati and went nowhere, while Randy de Puniet has been transformed from the man who regularly scored top 6 results on the LCR Honda to a rider who can barely make it into the top 10 on the Pramac Desmosedici. With the Ducati's history of destroying riders' reputations - along with their self-confidence - Rossi is just another casualty in the long list that started with Marco Melandri.
The startling difference between Rossi's times from this year and those from last year is one clue that the problem is not with the rider. At Laguna Seca, where comparable temperatures prevailed between the 2010 and 2011 events, Rossi was 14 seconds slower this year than on the Yamaha. At the 2010 event, Rossi was still using crutches, the US round being only his second race since returning after breaking his leg at Mugello, some 8 weeks' beforehand. But the key piece of evidence that the problem is the bike and not the rider is the times of Nicky Hayden: the American was also 14 seconds slower at Laguna in 2011 than he was in 2010.
 
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I agree with your, Troy Bayliss cut off his pinky and raced and won the championship.

When the championship is basically locked and decided for Stoner, why should Lorenzo bother putting off surgery and treatment?

I'd be checked out too...
 
And what about the wrist problem and lactose intolerance, either one kept him out for very long (and him being the guy who could ride the bike and win, kinds of put a stopper to your chances to win ...).

All that proves is that Rossi started winning in MotoGP earlier than Stoner. Not sure how that is relevant. Rossi success is not disputed here, it's rather the credit people are not willing to give to Stoner, even though he cleaned up in 800cc. If it wasn't the two medical issues who knows how many more titles would he have from 800cc class ... Since 2007 it's Stoner's 32 vs Rossi's 21 victories I believe.



.

cleaned up? Don't they both have 2 championships on the 800's?
you mention lactose intolerance and not a bone coming out of leg?
 
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