H-D Livewire pricing...

[AllistonGT]

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For example #1 automaker VW Group produced about 11.3 million vehicles worldwide in 2018, while employing ~650,000, whereas #2 automaker Toyota made about 10.7 million vehicles with only ~350,000 employees. About half the labour force! One pays dividends to shareholders while the other builds reserves to fund things like electric grid expansion. And as odd as it sounds, perhaps that may be a good thing to do for evolution in transportation?

I would guess VW does a lot more assembly in house vs Toyota that probably has a lot outsourced to sub assembly factories. Honda as well. By the way Porsche contribute a huge amount of the profit VW makes. Porsche has been for many years now the most profitable per unit auto producer in the world.

 

[Flywheel]

The current-production models would be EA888-based. But VW engine codes are a murky mess of gobbledygook, and even the newest designs still share the 88mm bore spacing that has been cast in stone for VW water-cooled in-line engines since the 1970s. Even the 5 cylinder used that bore spacing. Somewhere in some huge engine block machining plant, there must be some enormous un-changeable machining center that is set up to machine cylinder bores 88mm apart and nothing else. "Thou shalt not change this dimension"

A crypto-fascist reference to the infamous German 88mm AA/AT artillery used during WW2? Everyone knows what happens when you spin the VW logo at 1889 rpm, so it wouldn't surprise me.

 

[V-Tom]

A crypto-fascist reference to the infamous German 88mm AA/AT artillery used during WW2? Everyone knows what happens when you spin the VW logo at 1889 rpm, so it wouldn't surprise me.

Not everyone. What happens at 1889 RPM?

..Tom

 

[Mad Mike]

Not everyone. What happens at 1889 RPM?

..Tom

nazi wackos see a swastika strobe effect. Check it out, it’s on the internet!

 

[Blackfin]

Wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it. Then again, it's YT so it just as likely to be phony.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EikEITgw2yE

 

[PrivatePilot]

It’s phony. There’s countless videos out there testing the theory that don’t show the effect actually happening, except on the doctored ones.

 

[sburns]

Oh this is one of those "it is on the internet" so it must be true deals.


Sent from the moon!

 

[Flywheel]

It’s phony. There’s countless videos out there testing the theory that don’t show the effect actually happening, except on the doctored ones.

I clearly saw the face of Adenoid Hynkel (Charlie Chaplin) from *The Great Dictator*. Volkswagen executives at the time were huge Chaplin fans. They even inquired into purchasing the globe balloon prop used in the film as a gift for the German dictator. The YT ones are definitely fake because most use the modern (post WW2) Volkswagen logo. It only works if the pre-WW2 logo is used. Not linking because it's bad karma.

 

[crankcall]

I clearly saw the face of Adenoid Hynkel (Charlie Chaplin) from *The Great Dictator*. Volkswagen executives at the time were huge Chaplin fans. They even inquired into purchasing the globe balloon prop used in the film as a gift for the German dictator. The YT ones are definitely fake because most use the modern (post WW2) Volkswagen logo. It only works if the pre-WW2 logo is used. Not linking because it's bad karma.

Not sure if this is science or speculation, but its a great story LOL

 

[HarleyHare]

The current-production models would be EA888-based. But VW engine codes are a murky mess of gobbledygook, and even the newest designs still share the 88mm bore spacing that has been cast in stone for VW water-cooled in-line engines since the 1970s. Even the 5 cylinder used that bore spacing. Somewhere in some huge engine block machining plant, there must be some enormous un-changeable machining center that is set up to machine cylinder bores 88mm apart and nothing else. "Thou shalt not change this dimension"

Another mystery to the universe now answered! Ever wonder how VW engines generally develop peak torque at a ridiculously low 1,600 RPM and hold it to 4,500 RPM? Japanese and most other engines gradually build torque which peaks at 5,000 RPM. I had always thought it was some magic ratio of bore to stroke, and your answer confirms that.

As for "2.slow" I first heard that phrase a month ago and was surprized as my son's manual 2002 Golf has that engine but was always a riot to drive aggressively, and to me it never lacked for power. In fact it convinced me to buy a new Golf and now that it has a turbo, I call it my mini-Porsche.

 

[V-Tom]

...
In fact it convinced me to buy a new Golf and now that it has a turbo, I call it my mini-Porsche.

I work at a Porsche Dealership (for almost 24 years now.) About 7 or 8 years ago when we only had about 9 or 10 sales people all the sales reps were either driving a Porsche, a GTI or a Golf R. There were a lot of VW's owned by the rest of the staff.

..Tom

 

[smergy]

For better or for worse there is a huge push to have electric vehicles (EV's), especially in Europe. I suspect it won't be that long before the majority of large cities in Europe mandate EV's only in downtown areas and over there a bike is a great urban vehicle so an electric bike is a no brainer.
..Tom

You are correct. This is already happening in cities like Amsterdam, Oslo, etc. It's already happened with Taxi's in Amsterdam which will be expanded to regular cars in the next year or so:

https://issuu.com/gemeenteamsterdam/docs/plan_amsterdam_4-2018_the_electric_

The same thing for taxi's is happening in Shenzen, China:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.39f8235f4853

Soon all non-EV cars will be banned from the city center in Amsterdam. When I was there in the spring many were talking about it. Trucks will be added to the list by 2020. Of course the driving distances are much shorter, the winter is milder and the transit infrastructure is decent. Keep in mind, the road tax structure there is quite high and largely based on emissions output. Fun fact, they use no-spray asphalt on the highways new Amsterdam. When it rains (which it does a lot), there is no spray from tires. They also use gradually increasing speed limits (e.g. starting at 50 kph) during traffic jams to prevent the accordion effect. It's neat to see.

 

[smergy]

Back to the original point,

HD is a branding company that happens to sells motorcycles. They've spent years pounding in the same message. At first it was a counter culture rebellion image that was aspirational, which shifted as the demographic aged into an image of tradition and true to it's roots. That demographic was large and went through a period of significant wealth expansion, which worked out well and HD capitalized. Humans want to have things others don't. Why? it was different. It was carving your own path, different from their parents. That same desire remains today. A younger generation wants to distance themselves from their parents, who are 'old and dated'. The same cycle repeats, but this time the expression of uniqueness is done through technical advancement (iphones, smart watches, social conscious, global awareness). HD made the strategic error of continuing to appeal to the same demographic longer than they should have. Why? There is significantly less wealth expansion for the younger generation today. Go where the money is, but this was short-sighted . In doing, they've accumulated both technical debt and a brand image debt trying to minimize input (research) and maximize revenue for today. They now need to claw out of the hole. Just look at the stock in the past few years and ask how many younger kids aspire to own a top of the line $40k harley. Crickets.

This product is the right step, even if few will buy one. A sacrificial SKU to generate a marketing image shift. Price it crazy to get the buzz and still appear premium for your traditional base. Don't sell to many or risk being seen as a sell-out to the loyalists. If you drop the price, you water down the "premium" aspect of the brand, even if that's the move they need to make to cater to a less-brand loyal more value-oriented audience.

Mistake?

Maybe not, wait for bike 2 or 3. Price those competitive as volume scales and your traditional buyer ages out of the market. You don't have to maintain the old image baggage. The first version won't be successful in terms of sales, but it is a polarizing point that helps shift the image of 'ye 'ol hog'. Give it 10 years, once the hipsters are middle aged, they will want to buy the original Live-Wire, since no one else did.

 

[Lakota]

The Livewire also does something the other electric motorcycle manufacturers can't. The ability to ride it across country. The dealer network is huge and most are at the side of major highways. The dealers apparently will be hosting level 3 chargers so you can hop dealer to dealer charge in under an hour while having your free coffee and off to the next dealer to "gas up" and go after a coffee. Of course it is priced out of my reach but there are many who can afford it.

The 2020 HD Streetfighter model coming does have my attention though. 2022 I expect I will be putting it up against the Triumph Street Triple for one of them to be my next ride.

 

[Brian P]

^ That's an interesting point, BUT, I bring you this.

What's faster on a long distance cross country road trip ... a Tesla Model X, or a 1983 Fiat Panda? (P.S. the "45" in the name of this car refers to the number of horsepower ...)

The story (in Norwegian): https://autovia.no/the-ultimate-challenge-oslo-dubrovnik-fiat-panda-vs-tesla-x/

Video explanation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQLrUFB_qIY

The Panda won ...

 

[AllistonGT]

^ That's an interesting point, BUT, I bring you this.

What's faster on a long distance cross country road trip ... a Tesla Model X, or a 1983 Fiat Panda? (P.S. the "45" in the name of this car refers to the number of horsepower ...)

The story (in Norwegian): https://autovia.no/the-ultimate-challenge-oslo-dubrovnik-fiat-panda-vs-tesla-x/

Video explanation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQLrUFB_qIY

The Panda won ...

Drove a Panda in Italy for a week. Haha. Horrible vehicle. A Panda can't win at anything!

 

[caboose56]

^ That's an interesting point, BUT, I bring you this.

What's faster on a long distance cross country road trip ... a Tesla Model X, or a 1983 Fiat Panda? (P.S. the "45" in the name of this car refers to the number of horsepower ...)

The story (in Norwegian): https://autovia.no/the-ultimate-challenge-oslo-dubrovnik-fiat-panda-vs-tesla-x/

Video explanation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQLrUFB_qIY

The Panda won ...

Norway is pushing EVs heavily. The tax incentives are significant.

However, norther Norway is sparsely populated with limited infrastructure. Some Tesla supercharges are being powered by diesel generators.

 

[Brian P]

^ Greenwashing at its finest.

 

[nobbie48]

^ That's an interesting point, BUT, I bring you this.

What's faster on a long distance cross country road trip ... a Tesla Model X, or a 1983 Fiat Panda? (P.S. the "45" in the name of this car refers to the number of horsepower ...)

The story (in Norwegian): https://autovia.no/the-ultimate-challenge-oslo-dubrovnik-fiat-panda-vs-tesla-x/

Video explanation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQLrUFB_qIY

The Panda won ...

On a long road trip I can refuel an Ice in 3-4 minutes and be rolling again. Competing against a BEV I'll gain about 100 Km every couple of hours. Consider that the refuel time means an electric refuel station would have to have 10 times the number of electron pumps to prevent line ups.

Re racing how would the Panda do vs a sport BEV at a Daytona 500 event? Some interesting mileage trace offs for the BEV considering efficiency at lower speeds. We're already pretty close to a one recharge 500 mile race for the BEV. Would an hour in the pits kill the BEV's chances?

I don't know the performance of the Panda but assume 80 MPH and 15 minutes in the pits = 6.25 hours on the track and .25 hours in the pits, 76.92 MPH average. One would need a Range / Speed chart to calculate the BEV's potential but allowing for an hour in the pits It would have to do the track part in 5.5 hours, about 90 MPH to win.

If the battery couldn't last 250 miles at 90 MPH a second pit stop (1 hour) would mean the track part would be reduced to 4.5 hours @ 111 MPH. What's battery life at 111 MPH? Add another recharge?

Back to HD, the North American market for HD has always been V-twin noise and HD macho image. Will the HD crowd embrace quiet? Overseas markets may react differently so where is HD focusing its sales?

EV's are doing well at the drags but people complain about the lack of noise. Bubble gum cards in the spokes???

 

[GreyGhost]

On a long road trip I can refuel an Ice in 3-4 minutes and be rolling again. Competing against a BEV I'll gain about 100 Km every couple of hours. Consider that the refuel time means an electric refuel station would have to have 10 times the number of electron pumps to prevent line ups.

Re racing how would the Panda do vs a sport BEV at a Daytona 500 event? Some interesting mileage trace offs for the BEV considering efficiency at lower speeds. We're already pretty close to a one recharge 500 mile race for the BEV. Would an hour in the pits kill the BEV's chances?

I don't know the performance of the Panda but assume 80 MPH and 15 minutes in the pits = 6.25 hours on the track and .25 hours in the pits, 76.92 MPH average. One would need a Range / Speed chart to calculate the BEV's potential but allowing for an hour in the pits It would have to do the track part in 5.5 hours, about 90 MPH to win.

If the battery couldn't last 250 miles at 90 MPH a second pit stop (1 hour) would mean the track part would be reduced to 4.5 hours @ 111 MPH. What's battery life at 111 MPH? Add another recharge?

Back to HD, the North American market for HD has always been V-twin noise and HD macho image. Will the HD crowd embrace quiet? Overseas markets may react differently so where is HD focusing its sales?

EV's are doing well at the drags but people complain about the lack of noise. Bubble gum cards in the spokes???

Sustained high speed is the worst-case scenario for EV. I don't think there are any currently available BEV that could do 250 miles at 90 mph (it looks like Model 3 LR Aero might do 220 miles at 90mph). Obviously, in a race situation, you could modify the vehicle (eg. replace rear seat with more battery).

Range is reduced by ~50 miles for every 10 mph increase in speed. If you ran the numbers, I expect the fastest overall race time would be at the highest maintainable speed without having to stop (probably ~80 mph for the M3 LR Aero but I'm not sure how much extra energy is used up by all the cornering so it may be much slower).

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