Inching towards killing the moto industry in the GTA

LePhillou

LePhillou

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In the few years i've been following forums and reading up on motorcycling, I've been seeing less and less incentive for riders to take on riding.

Between the crazy ontario drivers, the shorter riding season (things that are more difficult to change)
And the changes happening (possible parking fees coming back in effect downtown, insurance rates skyrocketing for A LOT of riders even though they're already expensive)

On top of that, nothing is done to encourage motorcycling from the government standpoint other than the 'on street parking' pilot (they could look at legislations for filtering...i know, a hot subject divided even within the moto community, HOV usage outside of the city)

So then we have 2.5 groups of people suffering.
1- moto industry that isn't getting as much sales/post-sales activity
2- motorcyclists that are already in the 'sport' and those who want to get into the 'sport'
3- 0.5 - commuters who get stuck with more cars in traffic

Now I simply wonder what straw will break the camel's back as we keep taking on and on more restrictions for something that is already expensive and dangerous, when other countries around the world have it as the cheaper and standard means of transportation.

I think the moto industry and motorcyclists should try to come together in Ontario to represent and protect our rights while pushing for more incentives to keep the momentum going. Because with the measures being put in place and pushed forward, i can see that momentum of sales increase of the past decade coming to a halt and even regressing.

TL:DR
We're getting fakked over in Ontario, we gotta do something, motorcyclists along with the industry
 
Good luck with the apathetic population. MCs are considered recreational in this country. Other than those interested in it, the general population doesn't care. wonder what the sleeders are like? I haven't owned one in years and haven't followed that community.
 
Would need significant, active numbers as a whole. On top of that, money and expertise (lawyers, lobbyists, etc). I've seen an example in the recent (well, more like that last 6-7 years) of people trying to do something similar when it comes to internet in Canada and it's just not quite enough. There is not-for-profit OpenMedia and I am sure they have done some things up to date but nothing that has significantly changed the landscape. I am thinking this is due to the lack of active participation. Most people are willing to sign an online petition but beyond that, most don't care for getting off their seat and actually doing something or donating a few dollars here and there.

That being said, the idea is nice but it would need to be a serious effort by a large amount of people and we are already the minority of the population.
 
likebutta said:
That being said, the idea is nice but it would need to be a serious effort by a large amount of people and we are already the minority of the population.
Click to expand...
There's a big difference though in this situation, where the industry would be backing us as if we're not there as motorcyclists, they're not there as vendors.
(Industry & users) vs (insurance & govt) is a fairer fight than

(OpenMedia & users) vs (govt &industry)
 
LePhillou said:
In the few years i've been following forums and reading up on motorcycling, I've been seeing less and less incentive for riders to take on riding.

Between the crazy ontario drivers, the shorter riding season (things that are more difficult to change)
And the changes happening (possible parking fees coming back in effect downtown, insurance rates skyrocketing for A LOT of riders even though they're already expensive)

On top of that, nothing is done to encourage motorcycling from the government standpoint other than the 'on street parking' pilot (they could look at legislations for filtering...i know, a hot subject divided even within the moto community, HOV usage outside of the city)

So then we have 2.5 groups of people suffering.
1- moto industry that isn't getting as much sales/post-sales activity
2- motorcyclists that are already in the 'sport' and those who want to get into the 'sport'
3- 0.5 - commuters who get stuck with more cars in traffic

Now I simply wonder what straw will break the camel's back as we keep taking on and on more restrictions for something that is already expensive and dangerous, when other countries around the world have it as the cheaper and standard means of transportation.

I think the moto industry and motorcyclists should try to come together in Ontario to represent and protect our rights while pushing for more incentives to keep the momentum going. Because with the measures being put in place and pushed forward, i can see that momentum of sales increase of the past decade coming to a halt and even regressing.

TL:DR
We're getting fakked over in Ontario, we gotta do something, motorcyclists along with the industry
Click to expand...

Not to sound like I'm dismissing concerns, but there is nothing in this post that wasn't true 30 years ago. The only tangible change I can see is the perpetual decline of good sense from young riders, in the capacity of what type of bike to start with. A healthy industry is dependent on people being able to enter into it at a sustainable pace, develop a love and experience of the process, and eventually grow into a lifelong customer. In the horribly pathetic "I need it now" mentality that is our social cancer these days, bikes are far more representative of debt, and being overwhelmed with options of crap they don't need, gear that matches said crap, etc. Riders don't need to pitch their little inconveniences to the general public; they don't care and generally and rightfully hate your pathetic ****ing whining. Buy a bike you can actually afford, and go ride. Financing, and tricked out brand new bikes will definitely shorten the list of riders within their first year or two of riding. And buy the way, I don't have a particular hate for sportbikes or anything, but collectively you guys have made it real easy for the public to cheer on anything that will hurt the enjoyment of those rides. Stupid pipes, stupid riding, crashing and dying into the side of a cop car, hours of youtube documentaries on how to be the biggest retard on earth, hate to say it, but as a group it is pretty easy to see why nobody else will EVER give a flying **** about your insurance rates or where you can park. Don't shoot the messenger, that's just how it is
 
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Serious question: is the market in Canada significant enough to the manufacturers to really care?

Eventually it will dwindle down into powersports dealerships where you can buy your lawnmower, atv, seadoo and motorcycle in one spot. You'll have a lesser choice than now and only from what's available. The ones that always wanted to get a motorcycle or already have one, will continue to find a way to ride. The garage queens and part time riders might become less and less as it doesn't make sense to spend $$$ on things that are sitting in a garage. Also, the way the overall economy is going, the focus isn't on 'recreational' items/toys. Call it what you want, riding isn't a top 10 priority in this country. The spike of new riders over the years might have been due to a better economy and better CDN peso. Now? it'll dip. Will it come back up when times are good again? possibly. Bikes are cool, people always want to ride. The cost of entry stops lots.
 
The "industry" simply won't step up as your hoping they will. Much the same with the sledding industry. There are two major reasons for this.

Most manufacturers are no longer "single sport" manufacturers, (they used to build their different units, Sleds/atv's/pwc/motorcycles under seperate operations), now these businesses have all been integrated.

Many of the "recreational" vehicle builders have seen increasingly reduced sales on more than one front, as such they no longer have the funds to satisfy shareholders as well as spend the millions they used to as an industry on lobbyists etc. Whereas the insurers have seen increased premiums with reduced payouts due to gov't interference as such they have more funds than ever to lobby and buy gov't favor.

You combine these issues with the general publics attitiude that most riders are reckless jerks, (contributed to by the way some choose to ride), as well as our small representation of the general public, combined with our societal lethargy, and it is unlikely your going to see the earth shattering type of ground swell we would need to draw the attention of gov't as a whole.

Our climate as helps reinforce us as a "recreational segment" rather than a commuting segment such as you have in places like the southern most US.
 
hedo2002 said:
Our climate as helps reinforce us as a "recreational segment" rather than a commuting segment such as you have in places like the southern most US.
Click to expand...
I agree with everything you said but this part. I start commuting to my work daily as of the beginning of April and go solid until end of November (give or take a weird snow fall) so that is 8 months in where I save on gas, parking and etc. Most people can do this so it would be easy to be a commuting segment if our insurance wasn't so ridiculously expensive. IS it the chicken or the egg?
 
I run/commute from March to Dec in 2015 and do so most years. Still would rather do it for 12 months....but the winter does restrict us to recreational use for most.
 
Most people in the country don't see motorcycles as a practical means of transportation, an therefore not a necessity that a person would absolutely need in order to live here.

That fact alone limits the traction your cause can/will gain.

It's a damn shame, but t's not the end of the world.

Also, the "traffic reduction" argument is only valid if at LEAST 25% of the vehicles on the road are bikes - which can never happen here.
 
I was talking to some riders in Kentucky last year when I was down there.
It seems the average for insurance was $250 PER YEAR.
Up here, we shout in triumph if you can get it for 250 per month.
 
In the UK there's a huge motorcycle courier business, 365 day riding year, expensive gas, congested roads and limited parking spaces that all helped with promoting bikes as a viable means of transport. You may have some of those in the GTA but not all of them and outside the GTA you can't tick many of those boxes except for limited parking.

It's really the climate that kills it....it was a longer riding season this year but even after winter finishes there's grit all over any decent roads in the boonies for quite a few months.
 
statsman said:
I was talking to some riders in Kentucky last year when I was down there.
It seems the average for insurance was $250 PER YEAR.
Up here, we shout in triumph if you can get it for 250 per month.
Click to expand...

$250/yr in KY will likely get you the minimum the government there requires which is, I believe:

- $25,000 - bodily injury (per person)
- $50,000 - total bodily injury (if more than one person is hurt in the accident)
- $10,000 - property damage

Not much coverage there. An accident of any significance will likely bankrupt you. I don't mind paying more for the added peace of mind and coverage we get here. I just can't stomach the take-it-or-leave-it tens to multi-hundred percent increases we've seen of late ostensibly because of fraud even as the industry and government do little to nothing to combat that.
 
happycrappy said:
Not to sound like I'm dismissing concerns, but there is nothing in this post that wasn't true 30 years ago. The only tangible change I can see is the perpetual decline of good sense from young riders, in the capacity of what type of bike to start with. A healthy industry is dependent on people being able to enter into it at a sustainable pace, develop a love and experience of the process, and eventually grow into a lifelong customer. In the horribly pathetic "I need it now" mentality that is our social cancer these days, bikes are far more representative of debt, and being overwhelmed with options of crap they don't need, gear that matches said crap, etc. Riders don't need to pitch their little inconveniences to the general public; they don't care and generally and rightfully hate your pathetic ****ing whining. Buy a bike you can actually afford, and go ride. Financing, and tricked out brand new bikes will definitely shorten the list of riders within their first year or two of riding. And buy the way, I don't have a particular hate for sportbikes or anything, but collectively you guys have made it real easy for the public to cheer on anything that will hurt the enjoyment of those rides. Stupid pipes, stupid riding, crashing and dying into the side of a cop car, hours of youtube documentaries on how to be the biggest retard on earth, hate to say it, but as a group it is pretty easy to see why nobody else will EVER give a flying **** about your insurance rates or where you can park. Don't shoot the messenger, that's just how it is
Click to expand...
No intent on shooting you, youve got some very valid points.
The scene has changed, but the only people "adapting" to it is insurance companies.

Gov't could've evolved the graduated licensing system so that say, an m1 holder whose practical skills we haven't tested can't go get a litre bike. A profit based model as a regulator of who gets to ride what? Not the best way to regulate the moto population, because then even the rich douchekid will be able to afford one where as the careful commuter won't. We need a prevention model, not a bandaid model. A model where we try to mitigate risk so rates can stay lower for the general population

And that's the thing, even if you save up your pennies to buy a bike you can afford, you get cockblocked by an insurance price that is sometimes half of that amount you just dished out. Hell i've seen someone telling us how their klx250 went up by what was double if im not mistaken.
And that increase is accepted as something legal that can be done and nothing can be done about it other than place musical chair with insurers, until there are no chairs left that you can afford.

Now i can definitely see how the industry might not have as much motivation or pull as they used to... but there has to be something that can be done cause at some point we'll be pushed against the wall where insurance payment will be equal to bike purchase amount (*cue insurers laughing at us*)
We all know the gas guzzling vehicles will come to a dead end but in this climate, it seems alternatives to slow the process down are not an alternative.
Maybe our so-green government should look at limited gas consumption vehicles *wink wink*
 
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LePhillou said:
No intent on shooting you, youve got some very valid points.
The scene has changed, but the only people "adapting" to it is insurance companies.

Gov't could've evolved the graduated licensing system so that say, an m1 holder whose practical skills we haven't tested can't go get a litre bike. A profit based model as a regulator of who gets to ride what? Not the best way to regulate the moto population, because then even the rich douchekid will be able to afford one where as the careful commuter won't. We need a prevention model, not a bandaid model. A model where we try to mitigate risk so rates can stay lower for the general population

And that's the thing, even if you save up your pennies to buy a bike you can afford, you get cockblocked by an insurance price that is sometimes half of that amount you just dished out. Hell i've seen someone telling us how their klx250 went up by what was double if im not mistaken.
And that increase is accepted as something legal that can be done and nothing can be done about it other than place musical chair with insurers, until there are no chairs left that you can afford.

Now i can definitely see how the industry might not have as much motivation or pull as they used to... but there has to be something that can be done cause at some point we'll be pushed against the wall where insurance payment will be equal to bike purchase amount (*cue insurers laughing at us*)
We all know the gas guzzling vehicles will come to a dead end but in this climate, it seems alternatives to slow the process down are not an alternative.
Maybe our so-green government should look at limited gas consumption vehicles *wink wink*
Click to expand...

They had an opportunity with the HOV lanes and they simply concluded the bike ridership is sooooo small we don't count at all on their radar. The ONLY way they would change that attitude is if it leads to a NEW "REVENUE TOOL" for them..lol They did permit a MUCH smaller demographic into the HOV lanes, (electric cars), but quite simply CHOSE to ignore bikes as we are not considered "their voting demographic" as we, (at times demostrate common sense)..lol
 
Blackfin said:
$250/yr in KY will likely get you the minimum the government there requires which is, I believe:

- $25,000 - bodily injury (per person)
- $50,000 - total bodily injury (if more than one person is hurt in the accident)
- $10,000 - property damage

Not much coverage there. An accident of any significance will likely bankrupt you. I don't mind paying more for the added peace of mind and coverage we get here. I just can't stomach the take-it-or-leave-it tens to multi-hundred percent increases we've seen of late ostensibly because of fraud even as the industry and government do little to nothing to combat that.
Click to expand...

I think that's a bit of an old wife's tale spread by the Industry. I moved to California and am paying $380 for $4 million liability (compared with $1 million in Ontario) $4 million in accidents benefits (compared with $3500 in Ontario). In Ontario I was paying over $1200. And the coverage is in US $ so its probably 1.5 time more if converted to CDN $.

I could get basic coverage as described above for around $70 a year, but why would you?

Coupled with the fact that you're twice as likely to have an accident in California, can ride 12 months, healthcare costs are out of control and you can't fart without being sued, I should be paying a lot more here.
 
It's rather self-regulating, as I see it. It is a luxury here to have a bike. In a place like Peru, where I visited in early 2015, its a necessity. If every rider banded together here in Ontario and made enough noise, then we could make a difference. But we are few and far between. The funny thing is that your average rider seems to be slightly more affluent in general, being able to afford what is effectively a toy over your regular transportation. Usually these groups are more organized and vocal than most. But in our case I feel that our demographic has more of a lone wolf mentality.
 
I think part of the motorbiking lifestyle is your state of mind and your attitude! I have always been Positive about my love for bikes and have had a great going on 13 years riding experience with very few negatives.

Insurance IS expensive! I agree, the prices in Ontario are pure rip off compared to other parts of the world…. BUT…. I can insure a ninja 250 or similar for under $400 a year (that's not bad). Can't afford a supersport? get a smaller bike (if you truly do love driving them and not worried about your image)

Paid parking / Free Parking - Who cares!? it is all about being creative ;) I don't think I have ever paid for parking ever for the motorbike, but I generally hop the curb and park discretely by buildings with little to no problem over the years.

Short riding season? I don't mind taking a 3 month break which makes me even more passionate about the springtime!!

Counting the days until the thaw :D (but i won't hold my breathe for cheaper insurance…. :/
 
You CAN ride all year long. It just takes a different mindset. My car died in October and rather than getting another one, I spent $3000 on a used Suzuki Burgman. I commute daily from Hamilton to Mississauga (Winston Churchill and the 401 area). My VTX 1800 is in storage. It is all about risk management. I have only missed three days riding since then. I put 130 orange led's on it to make myself visible. I get ALL the comments... Aren't you cold?!, not with heated gear. Are you nuts?!, Nope, just like riding. Doesn't your bike get salty?! yep, but who cares.. it's a scooter. What if you drop it?! again, who cares as it is not my "pride and joy" Other drivers aren't looking for you in the winter!...All riders know that cagers NEVER look for us, so I am that much more defensive. Insurance for both bikes is $1100 per year. I carry a shaving kit because if I get really stuck with an unexpected snowfall, there is a Motel 6 just down the road.
Not out to prove anything to anyone, I just love riding... John
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