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Dr. Luxurious
Guest
25% increase from TD for me...no tickets in 10 yrs; no claims ever...
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23% better ...where's the rate break....???
- Thread starter MacDoc
- Start date
Yeah we have family members who are going through this. They got a lot further when a lawyer was involved. He said it's a game to them. They would prefer if my family would have died it would have been a smaller payout for them. It's all a scam.
I would definitely put my energy into it.
Just to be clear, when I speak of organization/association, I am thinking of a body presenting all motorists in Ontario (the sheep). Having motorcycle insurance numbers thrown into the debate will further illustrate how absurd the system is we are being forced into.
Civilized, well prepared campaign, not cabbies screaming into cameras and blocking traffic kind of circus... This is so long over-due, and the longer we tolerate it, the worse it will get, our rates are proof of that.
daught
Well-known member
25% increase from TD for me...no tickets in 10 yrs; no claims ever...
Same time last year I got my renewal and it went up by about 40% with TD. 10 years, no tickets, 92 CBR. I decided I don't want to pay in to the scam or whatever the game is. Pretty ****** I missed the best bike year, but I am focusing on some better ways to kill myself.
I would love to do it as well. It would be nice to get a bunch highly motivated volunteers together and set up a non-profit. Maybe when/if I move back.
I also agree that it has to be completely professional.
The other idea that has worked well in parts Scandinavia, Europe and Singapore is the concept of co-operative insurance, where a special interest group - in this case motorcyclists - would set up their own insurance for their members and only for motorcycles.
They can get very good bulk rates from an underwriter and eliminate the middle man or usually middle men and the group is usually non profit. In some cases they even self fund which is very popular with Farmers Unions.
I would love to see a balance sheet for TD with a breakdown of claim payouts and overhead. I would suspect that overhead and commissions are a huge part of their OPEX.
Clearly this would require a bit more effort and a small staff.
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For 2014, TD had the following:
Premiums written, $2,915,195,000
Premiums actually earned $2,861,836,000
Against:
Claims $2,399,324,000 (for Earned/loss ratio of 83.84% )
Against:
Expenses: Taxes $ 93,557,000 plus Commissions $343,098,000 plus Other expenses $315,133,000 (for Total Expenses ratio of 26.29%, fairly typical across Canada)
Total claims/expenses of $3,151,112,000 (for combined total claims/expense ratio of 110.13%)
Underwriting loss of $289,912,000
Investment income $180,439,000
The above numbers are based on all of their lines of insurance al across Canada, not just auto insurance in Ontario. Ontario accounts for 60% of TD Insurance's overall business across all insurance lines and 65% of their overall auto insurance line business.
Auto insurance prices are regulated in all provinces where auto insurance is provided by private carriers.
Nationwide, TD Insurance's financial results for auto insurance in 2014 are:
Liability - $1,069,337,000 premiums earned vs $825,645,000 claims for a claims ratio of 79.94%
Acc Benefits - $457,315,000 premiums earned vs $494,568,000 claims for a claims ratio of 130.60%
Theft/Comp - $522,024,000 premiums earned vs $461,504,000 claims for a claims ratio of 94.79%
Overall - $2,048,676,000 premiums earned vs c$2,039,405,000 claims for a claims ratio of 94.55%
Admin expenses and commissions are extra and not included in the claims payouts above. They're not making much margin on auto insurance, are they? If anything, the auto insurance line is a loss leader to try and attract business to their other unregulated insurance lines.
Among the provinces with government-run insurance the numbers also show losses but those losses can be recovered, unlike private carriers, from general tax revenues:
In 2014 BC's government insurance had an overall earned premium vs claims ratio of 94.30%.
Throw in 17.01% in general expenses, and the overall claims/admin expense ratio goes up to 111.31%. That 11.31% loss comes out of the pockets of the general taxpayer in BC whether or not they even drive.
Saskatchewan was worse. Overall earned premium vs claims ratio of 96.55%, plus 19.56% in general expenses, and the overall claims/expense ratio rises to 116.11%. That 16.11% loss comes out of the pockets of all taxpayers. Even non-drivers subsidize the insurance of drivers.
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D
Dr. Luxurious
Guest
i hear you...im seriously thinking of downsizing to something like a crf250l or getting out entirely...
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Then we'd face the same dilemma as the established insurance companies though: squids and reckless riders on SSs, gear-less old farts on Harleys, noobs on 600s and the like. The government would still mandate the big-four requirements for insurance (liability, accident benefits, uninsured automobiles and direct-comp) and this new insurance outfit would need to pay it all out.
Such a group would need to really push responsible riding, training and the like amongst its members to reduce risk. For example, you cannot get insurance from this group without proof of passing motorcycle training courses. Perhaps you need to take a yearly refresher safety and skills course to maintain coverage. Maybe a claim is denied if you're involved in a wreck and are not wearing appropriate gear. And so on...
I would simply like to see lobbying to promote laws to cap rate increases to prevent arbitrary, punitive and unfair rate increases of 10s or even 100s of percentage points even for riders with impeccable records. I'd also like to see the insurance market here opened up to foreign competition. We could also lobby for things like filtering and, perhaps, responsible lane splitting as accepted by and proven in other jurisdictions. But I digress...
daught
Well-known member
I tried going towards motards but even the 625 smc just doesn't work for for the distances we have to to good roads. By that I mean hundreds of kilometers of twisties not the forks. I might try something really small and exciting and trailering it to PA,NY,VT, but how many weekends will I do that for? Pretty big hassle to trailer a bike to PA every weekend.
I see that as probably best near-term approach.
Also, insurance companies have perfected the game of creative book cooking... Their numbers cannot be taken at face value.
Lobbying, public pressure, mobilizing masses... There is already enough evidence, thoroughly researched and published - and we all know it barely scratched the surface of the scam.
Elected officials have to stop participating in this scam - and forcing every motorist in the province into it. It is hurting entire industries, hurts our image and definitely hurts our family budgets. That is the message.
(In case of motorcycles, there's an added absurdness of stifling efforts to ease congestion and reduce pollution).
Also, insurance companies have perfected the game of creative book cooking... Their numbers cannot be taken at face value.
Lobbying, public pressure, mobilizing masses... There is already enough evidence, thoroughly researched and published - and we all know it barely scratched the surface of the scam.
Elected officials have to stop participating in this scam - and forcing every motorist in the province into it. It is hurting entire industries, hurts our image and definitely hurts our family budgets. That is the message.
(In case of motorcycles, there's an added absurdness of stifling efforts to ease congestion and reduce pollution).
On what grounds do you say that? The underwriting losses for government-run insurance programs are just as bad and even worse.
On inside knowledge. Losses are not the whole picture, profit and expenses are where so much of our money is going and they are masters of spinning the numbers... If you don't believe me, watch what is going to happen to "weather/flood/global warming" excuse in a short term and how it's going to increase your rates, propped up by quasi science they bank-rolled recently (and not based on actual science or stats).
All of this wouldn't even be so bad, if it was about some optional insurance product, in free market scenario. When our government is forcing us into this scheme, things take on the whole different dimension, and government isn't doing its due diligence - what we have now is complete lack of transparency and oversight and nothing being done to preventing these enormous financial abuses.
All of this wouldn't even be so bad, if it was about some optional insurance product, in free market scenario. When our government is forcing us into this scheme, things take on the whole different dimension, and government isn't doing its due diligence - what we have now is complete lack of transparency and oversight and nothing being done to preventing these enormous financial abuses.
....wut
Ah yes, that inscrutable "inside knowledge" which you expect people to readily accept just because, well, you say you have inside knowledge.
Insurance companies have to abide by published Canadian accounting standards and are subject to annual financial audits conducted and published by independent auditors who are accountable to shareholders. Their claims payout and expense disbursements are publically available for comparison to other insurance companies and even to government-run insurance programs. That kind of objective and standardized financial reporting usually tends to trump "inside knowledge" coming from someone with a gripe.
FSCO does provide fairly rigid oversight, and government steps in as well to try and control costs by redefining mandatory coverage levels from time to time. In the end though, it does come down to the cost of providing the coverage required by law. If the costs go up, so do premiums, and claims payouts in Ontario are several times higher than anywhere else in Canada or the US.
This is not unique to private insurance carriers. Published financial results show that government-run insurance programs consistently operate at a financial loss every year and at loss rates higher than experienced by most privately-run insurance carriers, but government programs can use general tax revenue to cover operating losses.
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And I stand by what I've said.
You don't have to take it from me:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...rios-broken-insurance-system/article18024824/
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/ont...or-auto-insurance-a-year-study-says-1.3028074
Do you honestly believe our rates are justified? (not to mention never-ending cycle of increases + benefit cuts)
You don't have to take it from me:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...rios-broken-insurance-system/article18024824/
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/ont...or-auto-insurance-a-year-study-says-1.3028074
Do you honestly believe our rates are justified? (not to mention never-ending cycle of increases + benefit cuts)
KPMG working for the government says one thing, OTLA (who try to get as much for their clients and as much as they can in contingency fees for themselves in claims against insurance companies) say another. No surprise there .
See http://www.canadianunderwriter.ca/digital-edition/download/?pdf=CU-DE-06022015.pdf for 2014. The picture is not as rosy as the OTLA claim.
Are our rates justified?
Among Ontario’s 9.6 million motorists, there were 85,000 accident and bodily injury insurance claimants in 2014.
According to the industry’s official statistics agency, the average bodily injury claim came to $143,630. By comparison, the average in Alberta is $12,785.
The average accident benefit payout was $31,785 in Ontario, compared with $7,895 in Nova Scotia and $3,766 in Alberta.
http://business.financialpost.com/fp-comment/terence-corcoran-why-ontarios-auto-insurance-system-is-a-car-wreck
According to the industry’s official statistics agency, the average bodily injury claim came to $143,630. By comparison, the average in Alberta is $12,785.
The average accident benefit payout was $31,785 in Ontario, compared with $7,895 in Nova Scotia and $3,766 in Alberta.
http://business.financialpost.com/fp-comment/terence-corcoran-why-ontarios-auto-insurance-system-is-a-car-wreck
Are our rates justified? Considering the size of high dollar insurance claims in Ontario compared to other provinces in Canada, they probably are even if we don't much like it.
Are these all legitimate claims? do the population volumes account for this?
I've always wondered what insurance companies do to catch fraud? or do they roll out the rates across the board to account for that and wait to see if/when the police catch the next Ragu?
Insurance Hotline says that fraud accounts for 15% of premiums. The police don't have sufficient specialized resources to investigate it so insurance companies do so themselves and bring any evidence they discover to police for prosecution. The cost of those private investigators adds to your insurance rates.
In addition, industry over-charging on items related to legitimate insurance claims also adds to claim amounts.
http://business.financialpost.com/p...anies-are-trying-to-crack-down-on-fake-claims
The above article also touches on the OTLA claim of overcharging.
While no nationwide data exists, a 2012 report submitted to the Ontario government by the province’s Auto Insurance Anti-Fraud Task Force included an estimate from KPMG saying fraud costs insurers in Ontario, reportedly the staged-collision capital of Canada, between $770 million and $1.6 billion in 2010. This would have amounted to between $116 and $236 per average premium in that year.
It’s interesting to note – in the “which came first” chicken-and-egg scenario of fraud costs vs premiums – that Ontario drivers may have overpaid insurance by $3 to $4 billion between 2001 and 2013 — $840 million in 2013 alone, says a recent study from Schulich School of Business commissioned by the Ontario Trial Lawyers Association.
“The more often fraud happens, the less money insurers have to pay for it,” said Christopher Lang, Aviva’s senior manager of fraud operations. “If we have a shortfall then we have to raise premiums to make up for the money we’ve lost and to cover for next year’s losses. It’s a vicious circle,” he said.
It’s interesting to note – in the “which came first” chicken-and-egg scenario of fraud costs vs premiums – that Ontario drivers may have overpaid insurance by $3 to $4 billion between 2001 and 2013 — $840 million in 2013 alone, says a recent study from Schulich School of Business commissioned by the Ontario Trial Lawyers Association.
“The more often fraud happens, the less money insurers have to pay for it,” said Christopher Lang, Aviva’s senior manager of fraud operations. “If we have a shortfall then we have to raise premiums to make up for the money we’ve lost and to cover for next year’s losses. It’s a vicious circle,” he said.
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Insurance companies and even IBC has fraud investigators. But in reality they are overwhelmed. Given the number of claims made daily in Ontario, (think of not just auto, but life, home, business, etc etc etc. The insurers would need thousands if not 10's of thousands of investigators. Plus if your an insurer are you going to use the valuable investigator to look into an auto claim of say $200,000 or a life policy of $5,000,000 plus say a business burns down and claims $8,550,000 in losses where are you going to focus your attention on any potential fraud?
The entire system is rift with waste and silliness. I have three health care specialists saying I need treatment for an accident the insurer sends me for 15 minutes to see their "specialist" who is paid by them. They deny coverage, my lawyer files arbitration with the FSCO, (who also has to be paid for). The arbitrator listens to bith sides and orders treatment be paid for. three months later we go through it all again.
Our health care system is no better. My mother is in hospital in London, they transfer her to St Thomas hospital for better physio. each time she has to use the patient transfer system. She was transferred on Monday next week she has appointments in the same London hospital 2 different days each time requiring a transfer by vehicle to and from each appointment. Now why didn't they just do these appointments while she was in London for the last 3 weeks??? Or at the very minimium do both appointments in ONE day? Each transfer requires an ambulance equipped vehicle and two paramedics, who work part time for the transfer company. I can only imagine the cost of each transfer. Such a waste..
The paragraph that contrasts bodily injury and accident benefits payouts in Ontario to other jurisdictions within Canada strongly suggests that something is broken here. While "claims" may be legit the "accident benefits claims economy" that has sprung up in Ontario has grossly inflated payouts and thus costs. As noted in the FP article linked above:
"There are currently 9,615 profit-driven clinics and 31,470 individual health care providers in Ontario registered with the Health Claims for Auto Insurance (HCAI) system, a centralized system that transmits information contained in the Statutory Accident Benefits Schedule (SABS) forms between insurers and health care providers. Given that there are approximately 85,000 accident benefits and bodily injury claims annually in Ontario - the vast majority of which are minor sprains, strains and whiplash - this translates into 8.8 injured claimants per clinic per year, or only 2.7 claimants per individual health care provider throughout the province."
The vast majority of these 85,000 claims are "minor sprains, strains and whiplash" and yet the average payout in Ontario is more than $143,000. Where is this money actually going? To these clinics? Are there fraudulent "clinics" in Toronto where a whiplash injury somehow translates into a hundred thousand dollars of billings?
The insurance industry and government need to crack down on this nonsense before any advocacy group or lobbying can be considered. In the face of numbers like these with hard data to back them up we'd be laughed out of the room.
