Unsaftied vs Safetied: Use buying

[Deimos]

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So let's not say it's no big deal. If it were no big deal, the seller would do it.

It sort of is when you got no insurance on the bike or valid sticker and can't otherwise get it to a mechanic to safety prior to selling it. Let's say you go through the hassle of getting the safety and the bike doesn't sell within the 30 days the certificate is good for. Suddenly you're out time and money. For some folks, it can be a big deal.

My last two bikes I bought outside the GTA, so I inspected myself and took them to Rosey Toes for a safety because I knew the sellers had no time or wanted to risk spending whatever their local mechanic charges only to find their bike didn't sell within the 30 days. I did the proper maintenance at home (liquids) for peace of mind.

 

[short stop]

It sort of is when you got no insurance on the bike or valid sticker and can't otherwise get it to a mechanic to safety prior to selling it. Let's say you go through the hassle of getting the safety and the bike doesn't sell within the 30 days the certificate is good for. Suddenly you're out time and money. For some folks, it can be a big deal.

And in that same vein, it can be a hassle for the buyer who also has to somehow get it to a mechanic. Really, it can be an inconvenience for both parties, and can definitely be used as a bargaining chip on either side. Plus, I'd only go get the safety if I had a firm buyer.

Likewise, if the only thing stopping a seller from selling a bike is because a potential buyer wants it safetied, why not just do it? Heck, tack on an extra $100 to the selling price. I'd think the seller was hiding something if they flat-out refused to do it.

 

[Alvito]

just sold a ninja 250 and was pulling my hair out with newbs asking my is it safetied, wont buy unless safetied.
im like take a $60 price drop and safety yourself...not good enough

If you said "selling as is" in your ad, then I agree with you. However, i see a lot of sales where the seller doesn't specify if it is certified or not. And when I ask about the UVIP, something which they are required by law to provide me... they ask me what that is, or some tell me that it is my responsibility to go buy it!

 

[AF4iK]

when it's safetied, isn't the seller on the hook if there are any 'surprises'? i know the mechanic is putting his license on the line, but isn't there some sort of 30 day liability if anything pops up?

I don't believe so. Don't quote me but, I read somewhere a while back that the safety only means the vehicle was roadworthy at the time the mechanic performed the inspection. Whatever happens the minute it leaves the shop is no concern of the mechanic's (ie, no liability and this whole thing is a big cash-grab scam under the guise of consumer protection).

its a cash grab, negotiate best price you can find.

all you need to worry about is minimum tire tread, brakes work, lights work done...

a "safety" doenst mean bike is safe...

a safety doesnt cost more than $50 if you go to the right shop.

many dealers and auto shops will charge more, thats a cash grab.

so dont fret it.

you can get your plate and Temp sticker and ride over and get it safetied.

I dont know why people think its such a big deal these days.

just sold a ninja 250 and was pulling my hair out with newbs asking my is it safetied, wont buy unless safetied.
im like take a $60 price drop and safety yourself...not good enough

Agreed. Though I know some places are sticklers for minor things and refuse to certify unless you have THEM "repair" it (cycleworld in scarborough for instance). If you're iffy about a bike passing safety but confident in it's road worthiness (this is kind of a grey area) you can pay double the cost of what a safety should be and take it to Canadian Tire. They literally do not check anything except for the lights, horn and maybe tread (at least at Allen & Lawrence location).

That's my point..it DOES require effort..in this case, the effort of the buyer. So let's not say it's no big deal. If it were no big deal, the seller would do it.

I think it's a minor inconvenience for the buyer who is already excited and running around to the MTO and insurance company. It's a slightly bigger inconvenience for the seller because he/she wouldn't have to move from the couch otherwise.

If you said "selling as is" in your ad, then I agree with you. However, i see a lot of sales where the seller doesn't specify if it is certified or not. And when I ask about the UVIP, something which they are required by law to provide me... they ask me what that is, or some tell me that it is my responsibility to go buy it!

I posted mine as price FIRM and as-is. Still got lowball offers and asking for safety as well as delivery. Some people expect the moon. I did get the UVIP though as it's required to transfer ownership but technically anyone can purchase the UVIP from the MTO. The prev owner of my old bike made me get it which I thought was a dick move since it's his responsibility but I was too excited and conceded.

 

[kellen]

when it's safetied, isn't the seller on the hook if there are any 'surprises'? i know the mechanic is putting his license on the line, but isn't there some sort of 30 day liability if anything pops up?

lol, NO

Sent from my SGH-I896 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Lean_Way_Low]

For the purposes of people looking to buy, I've linked to MTO's checklist. Enjoy saving the couple hundred or w/e by being able to confidently buy unsafetied .

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_900611_e.htm#BK13



Sent from the darkest corners of my evil mind.

 

[Malks]

Every vehicle I have sold has been inspected and comes with a safety certificate. I also have the UVIP so when the purchaser comes to look at the vehicle it is ready to go. These steps make it far more easy to sell a vehicle as the only thing the purchaser needs to do is go to the Ministry and have the ownership transferred into their name. I believe this added convenience is another feature that will make the vehicle sell faster, just like a reasonable price. When I am searching for a used vehicle I don't even look at those that are sold "as is".

 

[cantello]

My son, when he bought his first bike, he bought it from someone whom we knew and we took his word that everything was good and it will pass, as he had just had the bike safey inspection 6 months prior, he paid $1400 cash for the bike and just had enough money left over to get the bike on the road, took it down for the safety, was told it would need almost $1500 worth of work to pass, ended up unloading the bike for a loss, and told me son lesson learned

If they insist on selling the bike as is, I insist the bike be looked at before the transaction is make, I even offer to pay to have the bike looked at, this will tell me exactly what is needed to pass, and then the negotiations start based on that, if they say no to this, then I do just one thing, and thats walk and I go onto the next one, never buy a vehicle unless it comes with a safety or you know exactly what is needed for it to pass

Because you can not put the bike on the road till it passes a safety, when you do the ownership transfer, you can get a trip permit and take the bike to get looked at, or if you have your own bike plates, you can put them on the new bike, and you have upto 7 days to get the safety done and ownership transfered, if you do this make sure you have your insurance and bill of sale that is dated otherwise you are risking a ticket

 

[Alvito]

I posted mine as price FIRM and as-is. Still got lowball offers and asking for safety as well as delivery. Some people expect the moon. I did get the UVIP though as it's required to transfer ownership but technically anyone can purchase the UVIP from the MTO. The prev owner of my old bike made me get it which I thought was a dick move since it's his responsibility but I was too excited and conceded.

There is no excuse for the lowball offers, but asking the seller if they are willing to get the safety is a fair question. If you don't want to get the safety, just say no and explain the reason why. The more flexible you are, the easier it will be for you to make the sale.

It was your choice to buy the UVIP, and if you were 100% sure you were going to buy the bike then that's fine.

 

[cbcanada]

It needs to be safetied to transfer the ownership... it's best to arrange it so the buyer gets it done, then you don't have to worry about any surprises when you go to get it safetied

i have transferred 3 bikes to my name without a safety. the ownership says unfit unplated. you can then go back whenever u want with the safety certf.

 

[DSoup]

I always ask the seller (Car + Bike) to do the safety, and I'll throw in 100 bucks on top of the negotiated price, I'll pay for gas and their time. if they flat out refuse, I take that as less than confident that their vehicle will pass the safety. I know I am paying a bit more, but I feel that I get a better feel for the sale that way and it's one less thing to do afterwards.

Also, this is way more thorough than what the mechanic will do to inspect a bike and if it passes this 99% chance it will pass the inspection. Great guide.

http://www.clarity.net/~adam/buying-bike.html

 

[catalyst4]

To the OP,
I think it is time to put this thread to bed as I WAS the seller of said bike! The bike was a '08 ninja 250R with 10.5k, not damage, AM exhaust (with stock), fender elimnator, HID running light and tank pad. I was firm on $3500 and made that clear to you prior to having you show up.

I had no problem getting a safety done, and offered to get one done for you for an additional $80. $60 to cover the cost of the safety and $20 for my time/risk as I was taking the chance that they might find something I would be on the hook for. I also told you that you can have this done for you for the EXACT same price at your own house by Ted Rose should you choose as I did when I purchased it. Having a bike safetied means nothing more than it is deemed "road worthy" for the extent of the safety (30 days). I could have the bike safetied at Crappy Tire by someone who know squat about bikes. It means nothing as far as the condition of the bike, just that it passes the minimum standards to be on the road. I never said the bike was being sold saftied, I said very clearly that if you wanted it to be saftied that option was available.

I had been prepared to purchase a UVIP package as well, but since I got a response from you Friday evening and wanted to meet up Saturday, there was no time to do so. As I was planning to drop the bike of Wednesday, the package would've been purchased during the days which preceeded the sale. I also showed you the UVIP for the bike that I received last year when I purchased it, so at least you could see the history. If the one I provided to you differed you would have a reason to be concerned.

I was also more than accomodating in my offer to drop the bike off to you. As you had no means to get down to pick it up for TWO WEEKS, I offered to either leave it parked with no additional mileage (which is why I instructed your girlfriend to take a picture of the OD) or deliver it to you as it was still plated. I asked you to pay me $80 bucks for both my time and the gas as I would have to ride the bike from Mississauga to Markham during rush hour on a Wednesday night as well as have someone else drive up with me so that I could bring you the stock exhaust and take me home. This was MORE than fair given that I was accomodating your difficult schedule and inability to pick up the bike for an extended period of time.
If you lived around the block or even 20 minutes away, I would've done this for free. I was also more than doing my part by refusing to have your girlfriend (who has NEVER ridden on the road) come pick up the bike and drive it back home alone. I made it clear this was not an option for the pure interest in protecting her safety as an inexperience rider.

I acknowledged the chain had some surface rust on it. I would've cleaned this off had I had time to do so, but again I recieved a response with about 12 hours notice. The chain was not popping or seized, it was merely surface rust. I agreed it was there but that I was firm on the price and that you could take it or leave it. Its probably better for you that you saw it in the first place too; rather than have me attempting to mask any imperfections.

If you don't have the knowledge to know what to look for in a used bike or don't feel comfortable taking the risk, there are things called "DEALERS" who will sell you one, certfied and often with some sort of guarantee (often 30 days/3000 kms). You pay a premium but that is the cost of eliminating some of the risk.
On another note, next time you shake someone's hand and agree to the price and date, at least have the courtesy to inform them that you are backing out of the deal, even without my attempts to communicate with you. It shows a complete lack of maturity; something I sincerly hope doesn't carry over to your behaviour on two wheels.

 

[EC2010]

Delivery, unless stated as part of the ad as free, is something that the buyer & seller negotiate on top of the deal. I delivered my last bike for free because it was a 5 min ride from my house. If I am to travel the said distance (mississauga to markham) I would probably charge at least the $80 stated if not more for my time and effort (time, gas, a ride home-not taking transit). If you don't like the charge, you can always arrange a trailer to pick it up (e.g. Uhaul) or a reputable business like Toyhauler to help bring the ride home.

As for safety, I prefer the bike that I'm buying comes with one (just my personal preference) because I know if tires need to be replaced, I'll knock at least a couple hundreds off the sale price. Just my 2 cents.

In this case, sounds like the seller is pretty accommodating, and it's not like the OP is locked in the deal. He & GF can still walk away from it if he doesn't like the terms.

 

[evang]

its a cash grab, negotiate best price you can find.

all you need to worry about is minimum tire tread, brakes work, lights work done...

a "safety" doenst mean bike is safe...

a safety doesnt cost more than $50 if you go to the right shop.

Had to get a safety on my new bike a few weeks back. $40 at Rosey Toes, and dude lubed and adjusted by chain at no charge.

 

[flameboy182]

My son, when he bought his first bike, he bought it from someone whom we knew and we took his word that everything was good and it will pass, as he had just had the bike safey inspection 6 months prior, he paid $1400 cash for the bike and just had enough money left over to get the bike on the road, took it down for the safety, was told it would need almost $1500 worth of work to pass, ended up unloading the bike for a loss, and told me son lesson learned

If they insist on selling the bike as is, I insist the bike be looked at before the transaction is make, I even offer to pay to have the bike looked at, this will tell me exactly what is needed to pass, and then the negotiations start based on that, if they say no to this, then I do just one thing, and thats walk and I go onto the next one, never buy a vehicle unless it comes with a safety or you know exactly what is needed for it to pass

Because you can not put the bike on the road till it passes a safety, when you do the ownership transfer, you can get a trip permit and take the bike to get looked at, or if you have your own bike plates, you can put them on the new bike, and you have upto 7 days to get the safety done and ownership transfered, if you do this make sure you have your insurance and bill of sale that is dated otherwise you are risking a ticket

Great advice. I'm still in the process of looking for my first bike and this is definitely something I'll keep in mind.

 

[Grimmy]

There is no warranty of sorts if the bike has an issue within 30 days with the safety. If there is something blatently wrong, and the bike has a safety, you can contact the Ministry of Transporation and/or the shop that wrote the safety to have it addressed, but there might be a cost to make the necessary repair, so be prepared for that. There is no recourse to the seller.

Getting delivery to your home with the bike for free, or for cheap is a MASSIVE plus. A minor cost is very acceptable, most sellers are not willing to deliver - thats your arrangment you have to normally make.

If you do not know what you are looking for in a bike, or WHAT to look for in a private or dealer sold bike, take someone who knows what the are doing, and not that guy you met at the Tim Hortons wearing the flip flops on his chromed out Gixxer - he probably knows less than you do!

Lastly, regard this particular bike you were looking at - I would NOT buy this bike. The 'minor' rust on the chain is the key indicator.
1) The seller could not take the little time to properly prepare the bike for sale
2) The seller could not be bothered to do VERY BASIC maintenance to clean and lubricate the chain with proper chain lube - hense there is RUST on the chain, where there should be none.
3) The bike likely did not visit a dealer or proper technician for some period of time - a proper tech would clean and lube the chain, hense, no rust
4) If the chain hasn't been properly serviced, which is very easy to do, what else was not done on schedule or properly?

If I was a buyer of this bike, I would have walked away from this bike the second I saw the rusty chain - it's that telling.

A verbal agreement to buy and a handshake is "technically" an agreement to purchase, but without a payment made or deposit (what is called 'consideration') there is no strength to the agreement to be upheld from either side. In the case of a motorvehicle sale, a bill of sale comes with the UVIP - there is no reason to not complete the bill of sale, and make a proper contract of the sale agreement. As such, you reasonably can back out of the sale as no deposit was made, nor a contract signed. However, it is mature and proper to call the seller to advise of a lack of further interest in their bike to be polite.

 

[Cowmooflage]

There is no warranty of sorts if the bike has an issue within 30 days with the safety. If there is something blatently wrong, and the bike has a safety, you can contact the Ministry of Transporation and/or the shop that wrote the safety to have it addressed, but there might be a cost to make the necessary repair, so be prepared for that. There is no recourse to the seller.

Getting delivery to your home with the bike for free, or for cheap is a MASSIVE plus. A minor cost is very acceptable, most sellers are not willing to deliver - thats your arrangment you have to normally make.

If you do not know what you are looking for in a bike, or WHAT to look for in a private or dealer sold bike, take someone who knows what the are doing, and not that guy you met at the Tim Hortons wearing the flip flops on his chromed out Gixxer - he probably knows less than you do!

Lastly, regard this particular bike you were looking at - I would NOT buy this bike. The 'minor' rust on the chain is the key indicator.
1) The seller could not take the little time to properly prepare the bike for sale
2) The seller could not be bothered to do VERY BASIC maintenance to clean and lubricate the chain with proper chain lube - hense there is RUST on the chain, where there should be none.
3) The bike likely did not visit a dealer or proper technician for some period of time - a proper tech would clean and lube the chain, hense, no rust
4) If the chain hasn't been properly serviced, which is very easy to do, what else was not done on schedule or properly?

If I was a buyer of this bike, I would have walked away from this bike the second I saw the rusty chain - it's that telling.

A verbal agreement to buy and a handshake is "technically" an agreement to purchase, but without a payment made or deposit (what is called 'consideration') there is no strength to the agreement to be upheld from either side. In the case of a motorvehicle sale, a bill of sale comes with the UVIP - there is no reason to not complete the bill of sale, and make a proper contract of the sale agreement. As such, you reasonably can back out of the sale as no deposit was made, nor a contract signed. However, it is mature and proper to call the seller to advise of a lack of further interest in their bike to be polite.

^ well made post.

 

[catalyst4]

^^ Definitely agree with that post. In my haste to speak my mind I fully opened myself up for the criticism, which in this case was justified. For the record, chain cleaned up fine as soon as I got home and looks spotless. Has since passed safety from a respectable shop (for what its worth). My appolgies to the OP as well; wrong of me to throw you under the bus as it were.

As I was on the other side... here is my logic, probably repeating a bunch of stuff that's already been said.

My rule of thumb is that investing in a motorcycle, car, or any large ticket item is a decision that should not be rushed. Thanks to the internet, the amount of information available to potential buyers on both legal obligations on both ends of the sale as well as opinions and tips pertaining to what to look for in a used vehicle is endless. Taking the time to do your research prior to even contacting a seller is key. Many seem to be too eager to pull the trigger on a deal without getting their houses in order before hand.

As I mentioned previously, certification means absolutely nothing. Though serious issues pertaining to the service history or maintenance performed on the vehicle will surface, the inspection simply states that the bike is in sound enough condition that during the 36 days following the cert. the bike will operate in a matter that does not endanger the safety of either the rider or other vehicles on the road. Including it in the sale is something that is usually done for the benefit of the buyer as a "perk", allowing them to bypass the hassles of temporary certs or trailering. The same can be said for delivery; it is merely a perk that can be offered to attract buyers who may not have the ability to transport the bike themselves. All perks come with a tradeoff, and in this case it usually equates to money. The more effort a seller has to put in to the sale to appease the buyer, the less likely they are to move on their asking price (if not charge more). Someone who is willing to bypass any of these perks has a better stance when it comes to negotiating the price as it makes the life of the seller easier. Time is money afterall.

The act of getting a cert. done on the bike prior to sale is a risk to the seller for the simple reason that it is time sensitive. If it did not expire, all you would do is slap the cert. cost on top of the sale price and wouldn't have to worry. The expiry date limits this and as such can leave the seller out $60-$100 and the time they invested in getting it done. Offering certification on request simply limits the risk of the buyer and provides further option during the negotiation process, especially for a buyer who is willing to do without.

Though there are numerous "standards" when it comes to both buying and selling, there is no stedfast rule. As a seller, one can list anything they own (within reason of course) and are only obligated by law to not misrepresent the buyer. If someone wishes to list a unfit bike with no vin attached that is in fifty pieces and just happens that half of those are in another country, so be it. As long as this is clearly outlined prior to the sale and the buyer agrees, there is nothing wrong. Hence why vehicles are often advertised "AS-IS". It is up to the buyer's disgression as to the conditions regardless of how insane they may be.

I am familiar with Contract Law, specifically as it applies to legal liabilities and agree with the above statements. As mentioned, a handshake is an agreement but no considerations were exchanged so therefore there is techinically no binding contract. Even if money had been exchanged, proving a verbal contract in court is extremely difficult and would probably be dismissed, especially given the nature of the disagreement as no parties suffered any damages as a result. Ultimately, who cares?!
With a private sale, putting down a deposit puts both parties under unneed contractual obligations and equates to possible headaches/litigation for everyone. The buyer is out their deposit should the seller go AWOL and has to track them down/press charges, and the seller is now liable for any damages occured between deposit and purchase. They also have to be prepared to proves that item is still in the same condition it was in during the formation of the agreement (IE, "that scratch wasn't there when I saw it the first time. Take $50 bucks off the price" nonsense). Any seller who is overly eager to accept a deposit (there are exception of course) should throw up a red flag in the mind of the buyer. Chances are they either plan on taking the money and running, or know the hosed you and want to hold you to it. This doesn't pertain to all situation as there are some decent people still out there who hold their word, but best to protect your own interests. But until your name is on the Bill of Sale, Ownership, and the keys are in your hand its best to keep your money to yourself.

Ultimately, as a repsonsible buyer know what you're getting yourself into. Ask as many questions prior to meeting to make sure that everything checks out to avoid wasting your's or the seller's time. Make your intentions clear as to what your require or need but recognize that asking anything above and beyond the legal requirements for sale can and probably will cost you. If you are a serious buyer, show up with the cash in hand and be prepared to take the item home with you knowing the conditions/limitations that have already been establish in initial communications. If you like what you see but need some time to mull it over/make finanical or transportation arrangements then ask the seller to hold the item. That said, if an equal or better offer comes up in the meantime they are completely entitled to sell as they have no guarantee you won't back out eventually either. Don't be disappointed, move on, and be better prepared next time you want to check something out. And honestly, if you see something you don't like, walk away.

 

[AF4iK]

There is no excuse for the lowball offers, but asking the seller if they are willing to get the safety is a fair question. If you don't want to get the safety, just say no and explain the reason why. The more flexible you are, the easier it will be for you to make the sale.

It was your choice to buy the UVIP, and if you were 100% sure you were going to buy the bike then that's fine.

"As-is" means no safety will be provided. If they offered to pay more for the safety or only asked for a safety then that's a negotiation.
I agree that providing a safety usually makes it easier to sell a vehicle. In my case I was fine waiting for the right buyer, I just didn't want my time wasted.

On a happy note, I just purchased a used bike last week and was surprised when the seller offered to safety it for me pro bono! I suspect one of his friend's wrote it up for him but still, nice.

 

[D-3vil]

It's always preferable for the seller to safety the bike (on top of providing the UVIP). Not only do you provide some additional assurance that the bike is sound (as you probably state in the ad), but it's also much easier for you to do it as the bike is likely already plated (and insured) -- if this is not the case, all bets are off.

If, as a buyer, I buy a bike as-is, I'm then stuck having to tow it to the mechanic to get it safetied. Please don't mention that you can have some mechanics come to your home to do it -- while convenient it's not exactly legal.

This is what I expect, both when I buy and when I sell a vehicle. Whether the above are done for a separate cost or absorbed in the purchase price of the vehicle is another matter altogether and is best left for negotiation between the two parties.

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