Harley Davidsons

[nakkers]

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It's real simple. Harley's are slow. They are not very complicated machines. You can swap out the jugs and pistons to increase the displacement from 883 to 1200. Doing this will make the bike quicker than a stock 1200. End story.

If you go with a 1250 kit or something higher end, the cost won't yield you much of an improvement over a factory upgrade and you will need to look at the rest of the motor to get the true benefit of those additional 50 cc's. The crank can take the factory upgrade. If you do consider something else, the crank will need work.

HD's cranks are ok but, they will twist if you ask too much from them. At least the newer models don't take too kindly with too much additional power. Therefore it's suggested to reinforce them and balance accordingly or toss them and get something better spec'd. But, that is the tip of the iceberg.

If the goal is to go fast, look outside of HD. If you want to go fast on a HD and for reasonable money, it's better spent on a V-Rod or Big Twin.

Bottom line is, you can find plenty of used Sportsters already with the work done for way less than dropping the hammer yourself. For the cost of making it a sleeper, you truly are better off going to a different model or manufacturer all together.

 

[nakkers]

Let's be real clear about something right off the start.

EVERY crankshaft in EVERY motor is/was balanced BEFORE the engine was built/assembled.
If it wasn't balanced, the bearings wouldn't last 10mins.
Making changes to the top end has absolutely no effect on the operation of the crankshaft.
Harleys have cranks like small tractors anyways, so feel free to add all the horsepower you want.
As for max rpms, the only thing holding it back is the stock top end and cams.
The motor is quite happy and able to run at 9000rpms providing you have the correct heads, pistons, cams, ignition, rods etc..

Another myth is the belief that displacement is the only answer for speed and power.
If that were true, a small honda car engine wouldn't be able to make 300hp.
The larger displacement will give you more torque, thats what you are paying for, the HP gain is minimal.

An 883 with Buell lightning heads, pistons, new cams, ignition module and small carb mods will kill any 1200, 1250, and all stock softails Harley makes.
Take it a step further and custom port polish the heads, big twin valves, and have them shaved, you can spank most sportbikes down the quarter mile.

If you doubt any of the above, make sure you never bet your bike slip against me.

My only comment in regards to Buell, just use a beat up donar bike. Don't take a good or tired bike and yank the engine for a Sportster project. Or if you really want an American V Twin with power, get a damn Buell. You can buy them in great shape really cheap. Best money you can spend for a bike with character AND put a smile on your face.

I rod both today. Love my Sportster. Always will. When I want to travel to another city, the Buell gets the nod. The only annoying issue with the Buell is keeping the front wheel down. Hypothetically of course.

 

[AGAVE]

Here is a link for those that are curious about crankshaft balancing; http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/48121/understanding_crankshaft_balancing.aspx

It is likely that factory big bore kits address the balance question by keeping the new piston weights in line with the stockers as mentioned in the post above.

Are you kidding?
We're talking about motorcycles, not cars with a 454 chevy, thanks for coming out.

Having done many modifications over the last ten years, specifically on my own Sportster, it's obvious the only person with any actual experience is me.
I never throw my opinion in unless it's a subject i've allready tackled.

I don't think any of 'em commenting here do.
Typical GTAM FAIL!

To the OP:
If you want to do it, take your jugs AND HEADS to Gordie Bush. Use Keith Black pistons. It will be less than $1500. You don't need to rebalance the crank.

Well please enlighten us with your grand knowledge on the subject.
So you want him to toss in new larger pistons with no other mods and gain 6hp and 10lbs torque for around $1500?
Are you gonna pay him back when he complains its almost the same?
I know 5 backyard guys that will take your money too, there's a bit more to it than that.
Power is made with higher compression and flow in the heads, not just adding displacement.

Nakkers, i appreciate your input, but you've never seen a fast Sportster apparently, and i've never seen a bent Harley crank / flywheel assembly yet.
The belt drive will snap like an elastic band long before you bend a crank.
I had to run a chain with my good motor.
Your Buell lifts the wheel mostly due to the geometry of a sportbike vs a hog, not because its so much more powerful.
Put the motor in your sportster chassis and tell me if it still lifts the wheel then.

As for costs, you're all dreaming, 1500$ is nothing, someone show me some links for parts plus installation in that range.

 

[Hachi-Roku]

If you want to do it, take your jugs AND HEADS to Gordie Bush. Use Keith Black pistons. It will be less than $1500. You don't need to rebalance the crank.

And when it's done Check, Double check and Triple check the bore before re assembly

 

[Hachi-Roku]

As for costs, you're all dreaming, 1500$ is nothing, someone show me some links for parts plus installation in that range.

I'm pretty sure the post said $1500 in parts

I love seeing people pull Prices out their butts and crap their pants when they get a reasonable yet Real quote for motor work

Leave the 883 for the wife and just get a 1200
what you think you're saving getting the Smaller bike gets burned up quick building what you really wanted

 

[Low rider]

Why bother?

 

[Tripletrouble]

Let's be real clear about something right off the start.

EVERY crankshaft in EVERY motor is/was balanced BEFORE the engine was built/assembled.
If it wasn't balanced, the bearings wouldn't last 10mins.
Making changes to the top end has absolutely no effect on the operation of the crankshaft.

You sound about as smart as the guy that posted it doesn't matter whether you go down one tooth on the front or rear sprocket. You are ignorant. We all were at some point but you don't seem to want to learn any more or perhaps you know it all already?
I've been riding and racing and building engines on and off for almost 50 years so don't put me down as knowing less than you. I gave a lead to that site because it told why you need to balance a motor and the info is good for a single cylinder pushrod motor as well as big V8 motors. The physics don't change.
A few years ago a buddy of mine showed up for a ride with an 883 that he did a ton of work on, heads cams exhaust etc. and asked if I wanted to run my Norton. We did and he was surprised that he was squeezed out. There's a lot more to building a motor than bolting on parts. (Yes my Norton crank, rods and pistons were sent out to a specialist for dynamic balancing but that wasn't the whole story)

 

[AGAVE]

The only problem here is you not reading the posts and paying attention.
Did you even bother to look at the link i posted? http://www.streetchopperweb.com/tech/0704_stcp_crankshaft_balancing/viewall.html

It's exactly the same thing you posted, only mine pertains to motorcycles, which is what we're discussing.

What kinda magic balancing do you do thats different?

 

[nakkers]

Are you kidding?
We're talking about motorcycles, not cars with a 454 chevy, thanks for coming out.

Having done many modifications over the last ten years, specifically on my own Sportster, it's obvious the only person with any actual experience is me.
I never throw my opinion in unless it's a subject i've allready tackled.



Well please enlighten us with your grand knowledge on the subject.
So you want him to toss in new larger pistons with no other mods and gain 6hp and 10lbs torque for around $1500?
Are you gonna pay him back when he complains its almost the same?
I know 5 backyard guys that will take your money too, there's a bit more to it than that.
Power is made with higher compression and flow in the heads, not just adding displacement.

Nakkers, i appreciate your input, but you've never seen a fast Sportster apparently, and i've never seen a bent Harley crank / flywheel assembly yet.
The belt drive will snap like an elastic band long before you bend a crank.
I had to run a chain with my good motor.
Your Buell lifts the wheel mostly due to the geometry of a sportbike vs a hog, not because its so much more powerful.
Put the motor in your sportster chassis and tell me if it still lifts the wheel then.

As for costs, you're all dreaming, 1500$ is nothing, someone show me some links for parts plus installation in that range.

Agave,

Sorry man. Not questioning your experience and my posts was a little tongue in cheek. Seen plenty of fast Sportys. But of those, most if not all had extensive work done to them and the owners have access to have the work done or do it themselves. It really comes down to HD, hundreds of dollars to get more performance out these machines. FI Sportsters have weaker cranks that are good for up to 100 HP. Beyond that, I "heard" from some builders report they can twist. Pre 2007, are indeed bullet proof. Pre-2007 models, there is so much you can do before getting into to the bottom end anyways.

Also been told many spend the "extra" money on a big bore kit but, cheap out on the rest and find a stock 1200 will do just as well against a sleeved 1250. So, I'm just cautioning the expectations of what kind of bang for your buck going for an upgrade.

You can get into thousands of dollars in making that sportster a rocket. But, you might as well plan on keeping it because you'll get nothing for it. I suppose that's the same for any bike really? I'm just thinking, you can pick up a 2003 Anni-V-Rod with some nice upgrades for $10k without looking too hard and get some pretty decent performance. A friend was going to sell me his for $8,500 because that's all the dealer would offer him for trade in. He sold it for $9,500.

And while I'm a bit of a noob to Buell, I know bolting a stock Sportster motor into a Buell frame won't produce the same result. Lord knows a bunch have done it already. She'll still wheelie but, it just won't be as fun.


Can't we just settle this over a pint?


Cheers man.

 

[Tripletrouble]

"Making changes to the top end has absolutely no effect on the operation of the crankshaft". Isn't that what you said? And now you are posting links to sites that say." I started asking about crankshaft balancing, eager to find a capable shop because I know how much balancing reciprocating mass can affect a motor's performance"
You can't have your cake and eat it, either you need balancing or you don't. All engines whether they are are 1,2,3,4,6,8 or more cylinders are balanced at the factory. I didn't get into this to be a dick, merely to make sure that what is posted is correct and what you said wasn't. Nuff said.

 

[rinomato1]

I know that most people on here are sportbike riders but for those who are mechanically knowledgeable i have a question about Harleys. It seems that a lot of people have bought the 883 Sporty and wanted to improve the bikes performance so they got their 883 bored out to 1200 or bought new 1200 or 1250 cylinders with big pistons etc. My question is, don't you have to re-balance the crankshaft when you make a major change like this or is the rpm range of a Harley so low that it doesn't matter?

I have an 883 and Did the 1250 NRHS big bore kit W/ supporting mods: Cams, Valve Job, Ported and polished heads, Roland Sands Heavy intake breather, Vance And Hince short shots, Power commander tune and a whole lot more. The bike is STUPID FAST!!! and its fun! the torque comes on really early in the rpm range, but its manageable. I more than doubled the stock performance of the 883!

 

[rinomato1]

Also, The amount of supporting mods gets you the power where it needs to be. Number one Horsepower aint' cheap, and Number 2: Always get supporting mods that compliment whatever major motor project you tackle, or else it's just a waste of time and money. I sent my bike over to a HD racing specialist who works on race motors and he gave me bike some serious ponies, Let's just say that I can handle my fair share of 600's no problem.

 

[AGAVE]

"Making changes to the top end has absolutely no effect on the operation of the crankshaft". Isn't that what you said? And now you are posting links to sites that say." I started asking about crankshaft balancing, eager to find a capable shop because I know how much balancing reciprocating mass can affect a motor's performance"
You can't have your cake and eat it, either you need balancing or you don't. All engines whether they are are 1,2,3,4,6,8 or more cylinders are balanced at the factory. I didn't get into this to be a dick, merely to make sure that what is posted is correct and what you said wasn't. Nuff said.

Well now you're being more clear as what you're disputing at least.
Once again though, the timeline of the thread is important, the first statement was made because he was asking about doing a simple 1200 big bore kit.
This could be done in his own garage, no balancing required, the kit is complete, unless he wants to use the old jugs and have them machined.
I suppose i could have been more clear and said i was directly referring to a sportster 1200 kit.
I later posted that link in response to you, since you must be convinced he needs to worry about balancing.
We're talking about a specific Harley motor here, many mods can be done without stroking the motor or needing to tear it apart and re-balance anything. As per the Harley experts.
http://www.zippersperformance.com/catalogue/showproduct.asp?cat=588&prod=2031
That's a steeper mod than he wants by far, and i'll quote the pros that wrote it -
"Installation is straightforward, requiring engine disassembly to bore the crankcases for the big bore cylinders, and case clearancing for high lift camshafts (Zipper’s can provide these machining services). Rocker boxes will require extra clearance for high lift. Crankshaft requires no disassembly or rebalancing."

I can understand what you're getting at, but again, we're not talking "in general" about motor mechanics here, this is a sportster specific thread, it only got complicated because you're taking it there.
Unless you have some specific sportster knowledge, you're not helping at all.
I've done the research and the work.
You haven't added any helpful information yet.

As for the stock 1200 kit, it's a waste of money, barely adds anything, not worth the $.
an 883 and 1200 stock are only 13hp and a few ft/lbs of torque apart, its not a night and day difference.
A fat guy on the 1200 will get smoked by a slim guy on an 883. It's that close.

 

[AGAVE]

I have an 883 and Did the 1250 NRHS big bore kit W/ supporting mods: Cams, Valve Job, Ported and polished heads, Roland Sands Heavy intake breather, Vance And Hince short shots, Power commander tune and a whole lot more. The bike is STUPID FAST!!! and its fun! the torque comes on really early in the rpm range, but its manageable. I more than doubled the stock performance of the 883!

Also, The amount of supporting mods gets you the power where it needs to be. Number one Horsepower aint' cheap, and Number 2: Always get supporting mods that compliment whatever major motor project you tackle, or else it's just a waste of time and money. I sent my bike over to a HD racing specialist who works on race motors and he gave me bike some serious ponies, Let's just say that I can handle my fair share of 600's no problem.

Finally, someone that knows what a sportster can do.
Most guys find out the hard way, then hand me their cash.

 

[rinomato1]

Well now you're being more clear as what you're disputing at least.
Once again though, the timeline of the thread is important, the first statement was made because he was asking about doing a simple 1200 big bore kit.
This could be done in his own garage, no balancing required, the kit is complete, unless he wants to use the old jugs and have them machined.
I suppose i could have been more clear and said i was directly referring to a sportster 1200 kit.
I later posted that link in response to you, since you must be convinced he needs to worry about balancing.
We're talking about a specific Harley motor here, many mods can be done without stroking the motor or needing to tear it apart and re-balance anything. As per the Harley experts.
http://www.zippersperformance.com/catalogue/showproduct.asp?cat=588&prod=2031
That's a steeper mod than he wants by far, and i'll quote the pros that wrote it -
"Installation is straightforward, requiring engine disassembly to bore the crankcases for the big bore cylinders, and case clearancing for high lift camshafts (Zipper’s can provide these machining services). Rocker boxes will require extra clearance for high lift. Crankshaft requires no disassembly or rebalancing."

I can understand what you're getting at, but again, we're not talking "in general" about motor mechanics here, this is a sportster specific thread, it only got complicated because you're taking it there.
Unless you have some specific sportster knowledge, you're not helping at all.
I've done the research and the work.
You haven't added any helpful information yet.

As for the stock 1200 kit, it's a waste of money, barely adds anything, not worth the $.
an 883 and 1200 stock are only 13hp and a few ft/lbs of torque apart, its not a night and day difference.
A fat guy on the 1200 will get smoked by a slim guy on an 883. It's that close.

Yes, correct. but you also have to take into consideration the type of engine build you might undertake. first and most important question isn't the displacement, its the boat loads of supporting mods where other "Hidden HP" comes from. Now if you want FAST easy HP go to S & S and buy a crate motor already built with GINORMOUS HP And torque. Or you can, build up the motor using a multitude of aftermarket parts at your disposal, Especially for the EVO motors. I have well over 85 Horse on my motor and 93FTlb/tq! thats with the 1250 kit and a boat load of supporting mods the list is endless. Piston choice is also very crucial!

 

[rinomato1]

My suggestion is OP PM me if you want to undertake this build, I can refer you to a HD racing engine builder, and he will take good care of you. He asked me what I wanted. And I said "To kick the **** out of sportbikes" HAHA he laughed and said "Give me 5 months" and low and behold ive been riding it for almost a week now, and YES! what I asked him to do happened!

 

[AGAVE]

Yes, correct. but you also have to take into consideration the type of engine build you might undertake. first and most important question isn't the displacement, its the boat loads of supporting mods where other "Hidden HP" comes from. Now if you want FAST easy HP go to S & S and buy a crate motor already built with GINORMOUS HP And torque. Or you can, build up the motor using a multitude of aftermarket parts at your disposal, Especially for the EVO motors. I have well over 85 Horse on my motor and 93FTlb/tq! thats with the 1250 kit and a boat load of supporting mods the list is endless. Piston choice is also very crucial!

Absolutely, plus, there are so many choices and after market parts, much research must be done to ensure clearance and compatibility between brands, not to mention different machining techniques or options.
The s&s replacement is a nice option, but it hasn't been available for long, only recently has the market for sportsters broadened as it should have long ago, such a versatile bike to customize.
There used to be very few options for saving a sportster motor, HD wont rebuild them, and not many people want to invest the dollars, but since these new options came around, you can just upgrade the whole thing right up to date with newer, better parts and power to boot now.

edit> Some cool stuff here - http://hammerperf.com/xlbigborekits.shtml

 

[Tripletrouble]

I did state that it was likely that the big bore kit allowed for the original balance factor and that re balancing likely wasn't necessary. What I took exception to was your totally erroneous statement that "Making changes to the top end has absolutely no effect on the operation of the crankshaft". If you meant that it makes no difference in this specific case because the pistons are about the same weight as the stockers then you should state that. There are lots of newer riders on these forums and they need good info. not misleading stuff.

I drink Guinness by the way.

 

[rinomato1]

The HD Sportster is like the Porsche Boxster of Harley's Line up range. With enough proper tuning it could kick the **** out of its larger v-twin brethren ie: 1340 CC Softails etc..Right tuning, and lots of $ The key words and most important thing to know is that; With any motor, and ALOT of money you can make it as fast as you want, A boxster if tuned properly and with ALOT of $$ can spank a 911. So the key is to do your homework, better yet figure out what you want out of your sporty. Be it Speed, Torque good combo of both, and then start looking at who's out there that knows what they are talking about, and find the right person. Like, I said OP PM me so i can give you the name of the guy who did my HOG and you can go from there once you figured out what you're lookin to do. In my case it was to kick the **** out of unsuspectinc **** rockets

 

[mmmnaked]

Yes, correct. but you also have to take into consideration the type of engine build you might undertake. first and most important question isn't the displacement, its the boat loads of supporting mods where other "Hidden HP" comes from. Now if you want FAST easy HP go to S & S and buy a crate motor already built with GINORMOUS HP And torque. Or you can, build up the motor using a multitude of aftermarket parts at your disposal, Especially for the EVO motors. I have well over 85 Horse on my motor and 93FTlb/tq! thats with the 1250 kit and a boat load of supporting mods the list is endless. Piston choice is also very crucial!

When you say you can handle your fair share of 600s with your 85hp sportster, you're talking around-town stoplight to stoplight kinda thing right? Almost 100ft-lbs is a serious kick but im wondering how quickly you're out of steam with only 6000 revs. A 600cc sportbike probably cant keep up until 80kmh Im guessing...but after that?

I'd buy a sportster tomorrow if I could have about 110-120hp and 9500rpm in the motor...that'd be a slick ride.

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