In just one hour, 10 out of 12 in the pack busted for street racing.

Forum Sponsor
Anecdotally, it appears to me that traffic is slowing down. More and more left lane bandits are crawling out of the woodwork.
The queuing to get by them causes a delay and a decrease in speed overall.

If the police in BC are trying to use the civil forfeiture act, then I think that they are stretching that law passed it's breaking point. Nevertheless, there are laws that really take the fun out of excessive speeding, and while they are around I will be keeping away from those types of speeds as I'm travelling down the highways.

If you have deep pockets and a great lawyer, then feel free to roll the dice. Most of us can't afford to take the chance and need to keep our noses clean. For the most part you can get away with speeding a little bit, but not a lot. If the law is ever repealed or changed then I might consider travelling fast up an empty 400 in the wee hours of the morning, but not until then.
 
KrazyBones said:
If i had to ride at the speed limit i would have to kill myself. Just because i do 130 on a 70 speed limit country road doesn't mean I'm endangering anyone.
Click to expand...

I am not saying you were. I am saying that it's asinine to suggest that the people that don't do that are somehow conforming sheep that haven't lived their life.
 
Brian P said:
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by turbodish
Fatalities went down drastically after the introduction of HTA172, and they continue to fall. Did you miss the OPP news release following the Civic holiday weekend?
Click to expand...
Oh, really?
Click to expand...
The OPP release referred to highway fatalities in general, not just bikes.

Brian P said:
Not seeing any trend that is out of statistical norms with regards to 2008, and the thread that this came from, is expressing concern about the current situation.

http://www.gtamotorcycle.com/vbforu...eport-a-rise-in-serious-motorcycle-collisions
Click to expand...
33 dead so far this year in motorcycle crashes that I was able to locate (and how many more that I didn't find) at roughly the half-way point of the season. The halfway number for 2008 would have been 26 or 27.

Even though overall traffic fatalities are down this year as of the past long weekend, we're ahead of the game this year as far as motorcycle fatalities are concerned.

EDIT - correction, 34 riders dead with the latest delayed hospital passing from Richmond Hill. And for the peanut gallery, no, there is no "glee" in noting that.
 
Last edited:
KrazyBones said:
If i had to ride at the speed limit i would have to kill myself. Just because i do 130 on a 70 speed limit country road doesn't mean I'm endangering anyone.

Also if there was a prerequisite for issuing a speeding ticket of unsafe operation of a vehicle 99% of the speeding tickets would not be issued.


Speeding=/= danger

Doing 40 over in a 60 with traffic on in a snowstorm (as long as you maintain control) = the same penalty as doing 40 over on a empty highway at 2 in the morning on a hot summer day.
Click to expand...

The first time, second? Third? What about the 30th time? Can you see into the future? Wouldn't it be lovely if we could all make up our own laws? Can I ask you a question..if it was left up to individuals to make up the laws of the land with disregard for whatever everyone else thinks where do you think we would be? If it was me, working 5 days a week would be illegal and anyone with my name would automatically be paid twice as much as everyone else and be awarded a castle in Barbados.

Can you think of a country whos laws you'd really rather prefer? Or perhaps if you think hard enough about it you'll find that every country has severe penalties for excessive speeding. Ever taken a minute to wonder why that is?
 
Brian P said:
Oh, really?



Not seeing any trend that is out of statistical norms with regards to 2008, and the thread that this came from, is expressing concern about the current situation.

http://www.gtamotorcycle.com/vbforu...eport-a-rise-in-serious-motorcycle-collisions
Click to expand...

looking at the stats you quoted rider fatalities were lowest in 1999, 2000, 2002, 2003, 2004. there was a severe spike in 2005 (what was the weather like that year? wasn't it exceptionally warm?) 2006 through 2008 are all higher than the early 2000s, when did hta172 come into effect? 2007 wasn't it? yet 2008 had more fatalities than 2007, 2006 and pretty much every year before except 2005... 2008 was also the year where it rained something like 28 or 29 days in july (though I think 2007 was kinda wet too).
 
KrazyBones said:
With regards to speeding. I have only heard of one incident where a motorcyclist killed someone. Usually in a crash, the rider dies. I don;t need the government to hold my hand all my life. If i die i will die, but at least iv lived.
Click to expand...

I can recall two who were killed by a motorcycle rider. There may be more. With respect to the two that I do know of, I don't recall them getting a say in the choices taken by the riders who killed them.

This year I know of at least two non-riders who were injured critically enough by riders that they had to be air-lifted to hospital. I don't recall them having a say either.

Even where riders manage to off themselves by extreme riding and not take out anyone else, the highway closures for investigation affected the lives of literally hundreds of thousands of commuters, both those commuters who were forced off the closed highways and those commuters whose use of nearby alternates was slowed to a crawl by the refugees coming off the closed highways.

And then there are the surviving friends and families. They didn't get a say either. It seems that a lot of people other than the rider had to pay the price so some rider could "at least iv lived".
 
turbodish said:
I can recall two who were killed by a motorcycle rider. There may be more. With respect to the two that I do know of, I don't recall them getting a say in the choices taken by the riders who killed them.

This year I know of at least two non-riders who were injured critically enough by riders that they had to be air-lifted to hospital. I don't recall them having a say either.

Even where riders manage to off themselves by extreme riding and not take out anyone else, the highway closures for investigation affected the lives of literally hundreds of thousands of commuters, both those commuters who were forced off the closed highways and those commuters whose use of nearby alternates was slowed to a crawl by the refugees coming off the closed highways.

And then there are the surviving friends and families. They didn't get a say either. It seems that a lot of people other than the rider had to pay the price so some rider could "at least iv lived".
Click to expand...

and this year I know of at least one motorcycle rider who was killed by what appears to be the actions of a distracted driver and she didn't have any say in the matter either...
 
CruisnGrrl said:
and this year I know of at least one motorcycle rider who was killed by what appears to be the actions of a distracted driver and she didn't have any say in the matter either...
Click to expand...

Not sure anyone has any argument about that but it's not really relevant to this thread.
 
CruisnGrrl said:
and this year I know of at least one motorcycle rider who was killed by what appears to be the actions of a distracted driver and she didn't have any say in the matter either...
Click to expand...
And neither is acceptable, regardless of rider's or driver's reason for their driving habits. That's the point. Your "fun" doesn't justify the potential impact on others.
 
Again we go back to what is a reasonable speed limit? If you had a country road speed limit of 100 and a highway limit of 130.... then 50 over that is a bit more understandable for serious penalties. When you have a road that goes from 80 to 40 like I encountered yesterday (AND THERE WAS NO WARNING OF THE SPEED CHANGE) and the 40 still looks like the country.... that is NOT reasonable. Nor is having a 50 zone that should be AT LEAST an 80.
 
This is what speed surveys are for.

Speed limits should represent the maximum safe and reasonable speed on a highway during good traffic and roadway conditions. Traffic engineering studies have found that the best way to ascertain the appropriate speed limit is to survey the speeds of free-flowing traffic. The speed at which 85% of the vehicles are traveling at, or below, has generally been determined to be a limit which minimizes accident risk and maximizes motorist compliance. It blends an optimum combination of efficiency, consensus, enforceability, and safety.
Click to expand...

http://www.motorists.org/speed-limits/model-law
 
Now you are tryng to bring a common sense into the debate, however that is not what the Ontario government wants to do (at least there's no evidence of it). While most of European countries readily discuss what their reasonable speed limit should be and then implement it after the debate is done, how often have you heard the Ontario government discussing their ridiculously low hwy and country road speed limits. The only guy who discusses it publicly through media is Jim Kenzie. He seriously should be minister of transportation. He ain't perfect, but if only the left lane bandits, HTA172 and ridiculous speed limits were removed we would be much better off. I'd take that deal any day over anything bad he might have come up with in return, wouldn't you?
 
I remember when the big penalties were for doubling the speed limit but even then I don't think there was a road side suspension. I got a ticket when I was younger for 160 kph. I was going faster than that but the cop knocked it back for me since "I wasn't being reckless or endangering anyone", his words. He gave me the short speech about speeding but he was calm and reasonable about the whole thing. Those days are long gone... Of course it was also in a different province.
 
espro said:
Yeah, 180km/h and 200km/h is definitely territory where you're well aware you're ****ed if you get caught.
Click to expand...
I lent a guy at work my Drift camera for a weekend. He claims to ride a little spirited but generally safe and well behaved. I counted at least 5 times he hit over 270 kph. Mostly on the 400/401 in traffic. Was also passing cars and other bikes in their lanes. Then people wonder if other riders' behavior affects the public view of all motorcyclists.
 
Metastable said:
Again we go back to what is a reasonable speed limit? If you had a country road speed limit of 100 and a highway limit of 130.... then 50 over that is a bit more understandable for serious penalties. When you have a road that goes from 80 to 40 like I encountered yesterday (AND THERE WAS NO WARNING OF THE SPEED CHANGE) and the 40 still looks like the country.... that is NOT reasonable. Nor is having a 50 zone that should be AT LEAST an 80.
Click to expand...
I live on a road like this and drive it daily. If there's ever a cop sitting beside my house when I get home, I would likely be walking to work for the next week at least. Hopefully it doesn't happen because 54 km is an awfully long walk... oh wait, it's longer if I can't take the 401 :P
 
So much for the future, but for the present we need to live within the current laws. Pretending that the laws don't exist doesn't make them go away, unless you have really deep pockets and great lawyers.

Remember at 160 kph you are travelling the length of a football field every 4 seconds, by the time you see something stopped across the road your choice is to hit it or to hit it.

You only win if everyone is doing relatively the same speed. Speed kills, but delta v causes the accidents.
 
OpenGambit said:
I am still curious about the effect that can be reasonably attributed to 172 tho. Which is why I asked for the BC stats because I think it helps control for other factors if the experience is replicated.

I guess I am having some difficulty connecting your assertion that highway speeds have generally slowed to 172 because 172 doesn't have an effect on people going 140.
Click to expand...
Remember, you asked for it. ;-)

Here are stats followed by media releases for the more recent periods for which published reports are not available.

May 2006 CC amended by Bill C19 to include "racing" as an aggravating factor to DD, tougher penalties. http://www.parl.gc.ca/About/Parliam...age=E&ls=c19&source=library_prb&Parl=39&Ses=1
Sept 2007 Ontario's HTA172 takes effect
May 2008 Nova Scotia's Law identical to HTA172 takes effect
Sept 2010 BC's HTA172-like law takes effect

Ontario/NS/BC Fatalities "fatalities per billion km driven"/Raw fatalities
Year Ont NS BC
--------------
2010 ?/? ?/69 ?/? BC's "HTA172" took effect Sept 2010
2009 4.2/? 7.2/72 10.5/?
2008 4.6/631 8.6/83 9.9/? Nova Scotia's "HTA172" took effect May 2008
2007 5.5/765 9.3/99 11.6/417 Ontario HTA172 took effect Sept 2007 and Criminal Code Racing amendment to Dangerous Driving took effect mid 2007
2006 5.3/769 8.4/86 12.9/409
2005 5.5/766 7.1/72 13.9/459
2004 6.6/799 9.4/90 12.4/444
2003 6.0/831 6.7/70 12.9/456
2002 7.1/872 ?/88 ?/453
2001 6.0/845 ?/80
2000 6.0/849 ?/87

Transport Canada Road Safety reports
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/roadsafety/tp-tp3322-2009-1173.htm#t4
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/roadsafety/tp-tp3322-2008-1144.htm
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/roadsafety/tp-tp3322-2007-1039.htm
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/roadsafety/tp-tp3322-2006-page5-588.htm
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/roadsafety/tp-tp3322-2005-page5-653.htm
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/roadsafety/tp-tp3322-2004-page5-716.htm
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/roadsafety/tp-tp3322-2003-page5-635.htm

Ontario annual ORSAR Road Safety reports lag TC reports by about a year as Ontario finalizes and confirmed fatality and travel distance data. Ontario data in Transport Canada reports are noted as "preliminary and differ from Ontario ORSAR report data. Trends remain intact regardless.
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/safety/orsar/orsar08/overview.shtml
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/safety/orsar/orsar07/overview.shtml
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/safety/orsar/orsar06/chp1_06.shtml
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/safety/orsar/orsar05/chp1_05.shtml
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/safety/orsar/orsar04/chp1_04.shtml
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/safety/orsar/orsar03/chp1_03.shtml
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/safety/orsar/orsar02/chp1_02.shtml
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/safety/orsar/orsar01/chp1_01.shtml
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/safety/orsar/orsar00/chp1_00.shtml

Nova Scotia Raw fatality numbers
2010 69
2009 72
2008 83 Nova Scotia's "HTA172" took effect May 2008
2007 99 Criminal Code Racing amendment to Dangerous Driving took effect mid 2007
2006 86
2005 72
2004 90
2003 70
2002 88
2001 80
2000 87

http://www.gov.ns.ca/tran/publications/collisionstats/FMWK2010.pdf
http://www.gov.ns.ca/tran/publications/collisionstats/FMWK2009.pdf
http://www.gov.ns.ca/tran/publications/collisionstats/FMWK2008.pdf
http://www.gov.ns.ca/tran/publications/collisionstats/FMWK2007.pdf
http://www.gov.ns.ca/tran/publications/collisionstats/CCMTA_2006.pdf
http://www.gov.ns.ca/tran/publications/collisionstats/CCMTA_2005.pdf
http://www.gov.ns.ca/tran/publications/collisionstats/CCMTA_2004.pdf
http://www.gov.ns.ca/tran/publications/collisionstats/CCMTA_2003.pdf
http://www.gov.ns.ca/tran/publications/collisionstats/2002_Collision_Statistics.pdf

British Columbia's raw fatality numbers
2010 BC's "HTA172" took effect Sept 2010
2009
2008
2007 417
2006 409 Criminal Code Racing amendment to Dangerous Driving took effect mid 2007
2005 459
2004 444
2003 456
2002 453
2001 398
2000 404

The above lists are from official government publications. Ontario's ORSAR for 2009 and 2010 are not yet out, nor are ICBC's 2008-2010 reports.

The following are culled from various media releases.
British Columbia after their tougher law
The 2010 implementation of their extreme driving law also included tougher alcohol restrictions similar to Ontario's recent .05 BAC laws. The following quote covers the first 9 months after the tough law went into effect, abd notes a huge drop in fatalities whether related to impairment or otherwise. Their initial drop was as dramatic as that which Ontario saw in the first year of HTA172 implementation. BC still has a lot of room in which to improve their fatality rates.
Between October, 2010 and June, 2011 a total of 209 traffic fatalities occurred on British Columbia roadways, 36 of these were determined to be alcohol related. This is down from a high of 323 fatalities, 97 of which were alcohol related, that occurred over the same period in 2005-06.
http://bc.rcmp.ca/ViewPage.action?siteNodeId=50&languageId=1&contentId=20566
Click to expand...
Another quote, specific to the alcohol provision part of the tougher law which mirror Ontario's .05 limit:
Since the introduction of the Immediate Roadside Prohibitions (IRP) on September 20, 2010, there have been significant decreases in alcohol-related fatalities. There were 30 alcohol-related fatalities from October 2010 to April 2011. This is a 50 per cent decrease in the number of alcohol-related fatalities for the same seven month time period for the previous five years (61 fatalities).
http://www.pssg.gov.bc.ca/osmv/shareddocs/alcohol-related-fatalities-oct-apr.pdf
Click to expand...


Ontario
Final ORSAR reports are not yet in for 2009, but some media releases are available showing that the targets of HTA172 continue to fall.
On September 30, 2007, Ontario implemented a new program to reduce street racing, stunt driving and extreme speeding. The OPP has indicated that there was an 11.1 per cent decrease in speed-related traffic fatalities on OPP patrolled highways in 2010, compared to the year before. This is on top of a 27.7 per cent decrease in speed-related traffic fatalities on OPP patrolled highways in 2009 compared to 2008, and a 29.4 per cent decrease in 2008, compared to 2007, the year the legislation came into effect.
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/about/quickfacts.shtml
Click to expand...
The continued rate of fall in "speed-related" fatalities suggests that the law and enforcement is continuing to have an effect even of the marginal returns are starting to diminish. Maybe more people have finally internalized the message.

The following bits pertain only to OPP-patrolled roads. The OPP reported 451 fatalities on their roads in 2007, falling to 322 in 2008 and falling some more to 310 in 2009. This was followed by a slight rise in fatalities in the the Jan to July period of 2010 (163 total, 9 more as compared to same period in 2009, attributable mainly to a 70% (46) spike in JUly 2010 traffic fatalities vs July 2009's 28 fatalities. I recall reading that by end of year, total 2010 fatalities on OPP roads had finished with a slight improvment the 2009 numbers, but I haven't been able to locate the article.

For this year though, the OPP reports a reduction in year-over-year fatalities to end of July. The downward trend continues, despite Ontario's 9 million plus licensed drivers increasing at the rate of 1 or 2% each year, and despite ever increasing numbers of vehicles on our roads.
As of July 31, 157 people have died in motor vehicle collisions in 2011 compare to 173 in the same period for 2010, a decrease of 9.2 percent. http://www.opp.ca/ecms/index.php?id=405&nid=650
Click to expand...


In any case, you asked the effect of HTA172? Fatalities plummeted in the year folllowing implementation and have continued to drop since despite promises of serious rebound by some posters here.

When Nova Scotia implemented their own almost exact carbon copy of HTA172 only with slightly higher fines, their fatality numbers dropped.

When BC did the same only with a 40 kmph definition of excess speeding, their fatality rates dropped substantially in the first 9 months of enforcement.

None of the drops in fatality rates following toughened legislation appear to be a continuation of any prior existing trend line's slope.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom