In just one hour, 10 out of 12 in the pack busted for street racing.

[Moreno636]

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I doubt it will.

The constitutional challenges hinged on HTA172 having 6 months in jail as a potential penalty, and with it being perceived as an absolute liability offence the same as speeding. The Court of Appeal knocked that peg out when they ruled that HTA172 was a strict liability offence that permitted an accused to mount of possible defence of due diligence, and that therefore HTA172 was constitutionally acceptable per those grounds.

The only other possible challenge would hinge on roadside administrative suspension and impound prior to trial, but the provincial right to impose such administrative measures in matters of provincial regulation (transportation as per powers granted to provinces under the British North America Act, aka the Canadian Constitution) was affirmed in back in 1999 in Horsefield v Registrar of Motor Vehicles Ontario http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onca/doc/1999/1999canlii2023/1999canlii2023.pdf

Unless you can think of another avenue in which to attack the constitutionality of HTA172, I think that ship has long since sailed.

Or a higher set of judges can rule that HTA172 isnt a strict liability offence that didnt permit an accused to mount a possible defence of due diligence.

 

[jc100]

Chainsaws could be used for murderous rampages, why not go confiscate all chainsaws being used by local lanscape companies?

What about wielding a running chainsaw in public?

Knives can be used to stab people, why not go confiscate all pocket knives?

What about weilding the knife in public showing the potential for uses other than cutting twigs?

Belts can be used to strangle people, why not go confiscate belts from everyone?

Belts are actually routinely confiscated from those people who are deemed to pose a significant threat to themselves.

Golf clubs can be used to assault people, why not go confiscate all golf clubs?

What if the golf club is being wielded in a threatening manner?

You're making the wrong arguments again.

Context is everything. OK, now extend that...cars are not ordinarily confiscated when used for normal uses...driving within the law. What is wrong with confiscating them for public safety when an operator shows they are not concerned with other people's safety?

There are many things that are legal when used for the purposes for which they were designed and permitted. It's when they are used for purposes where not designed or permitted that's the problem.

People seem to be focussing on the private individuals hardship when something is confiscated, personaly I think that is a byproduct of confiscation for public safety...no matter what statistical chance you think there is of that public safety problem occuring, there is a demonstrably increased chance.

We can extend all these arguments to matches etc etc. What if someone is found to be striking the matches and throwing them at tinder dry grass? Do we still give them benefit of the doubt that they didn't realise they could start a fire or do we act to prevent something bigger taking place? Are we impinging on the individual's rights to carry matches...or are we acting to prevent something bigger taking place? Is it sensible to leave that person caught without a doubt in possession at that moment of the items they have already demonstrated that they can't use properly?

The argument about abuse of this is a seperate argument altogether and a valid one and the items in bold above are items that are absolutely left to the discretion of a police officer except perhaps for the sensible part which I would hope is universal.

 

[OpenGambit]

Or a higher set of judges can rule that HTA172 isnt a strict liability offence that didnt permit an accused to mount a possible defence of due diligence.

So.. making it worse than the way it is now?.... Thats pretty unlikely too.

 

[Moreno636]

And yet Ontario has the safest roads in North America, even better than almost all of Europe, Germany included. Only the Netherlands and Sweden are even close. That kind of puts your theory deep into the toilet.

Nice try, but that study was done from 2007 to 2008, while HTA172 was instituted on Sept 30 2007. HTA 172 had nothing to do with the reduction in fatalities during that time period.

 

[Moreno636]

So.. making it worse than the way it is now?.... Thats pretty unlikely too.

Sorry I meant to say that while it still being a strict liability offence, a person could still use due diligence defence if they believed he or she was not travelling over the speed limit at all. If you dont believe you were speeding how can you do everything possible to make sure your under the speed limit?

 

[OpenGambit]

Sorry I meant to say that while it still being a strict liability offence, a person could use due diligence defence only if they believed he or she was not travelling over the speed limit at all.

I think you must be confused because what you mentioned there is a defense of a honest but mistaken belief. That is not the same as due diligence.

Either way, I don't see how the Supreme Court of Canada would restrict the use of the due diligence defence...

 

[49over]

Less power to cops the better it is. I've had 3 encounters with cops, all 3 were a waste of my time:

#1. Finished gym at 3 in the morning, cop followed me, would NOT tell me why he pulled me over and let me go after.
#2. Old manager was a *****, told her I hoped she got cancer and died (which she did 6 months after, a coworker called me to inform me after I got fired and thanked me for voodoo magix). She filed a report that I sent a death threat to her, and another snitch in the store decided to make a story about me having a gun. Needless to say, cops wasted my time, and scared the **** out of my parents. I talked to a couple lawyers and there wasn't really much I could do unless I wanted to spend a lot of $$$. In other words, next time you want to get somebody in ****, just tell the cops there are rumors that he/she has a gun.
#3. Pulled over 2 days ago, I gave the cop attitude and he decided to search me.

Cops are all *** holes. They waste time on this **** rather than dealing with things that actually matter: such as my frd's cousin getting stabbed in the back of the head years ago. There was another time where my friends got chased from some place to a cop station and cops still did nothing. One of my friends had a big mouth, big deal, doesn't mean he deserves to get a bottle opened on his head and sent to the hospital.

Again, the less power we give to cops, the better it is, but seeing as how most of you supported the HTA....-__________-

I've Had my "M" for 20 yrs... times pulled over on a BIKE "Crotch Rocket" 0000000000000(ZERO)
*NOTE* I don't do stupid stuff in public areas, I've never even been stopped in ride programs... I know eventually I will, but 0 in 20yrs is a good start..
I go on the theory: Ride Respectful, Ride Smart and they will leave you alone( for the most part).
I would probably ride fast, but I don't trust anyone else on the road, my time is spent watching there stupid habits to keep my A*S alive..:lmao:

 

[Shaman]

As expected, turbodish just ignored my post. When presented with facts (the studies, et al) he just whitewashes over it and keeps going. A true politician. That's not an endearing title, BTW.

 

[FiReSTaRT]

As expected, turbodish just ignored my post. When presented with facts (the studies, et al) he just whitewashes over it and keeps going. A true politician. That's not an endearing title, BTW.

I'm sure turbo meant to respond to your inquiries, but it takes a bit of time to "come up" with opposing turbo-statistics. Please be patient and he will get back to you with all the turbo-statistics that you can handle and then some.

 

[turbodish]

Nice try, but that study was done from 2007 to 2008, while HTA172 was instituted on Sept 30 2007. HTA 172 had nothing to do with the reduction in fatalities during that time period.

I didn't link HTA172 to those numbers, did I? However, since you brought it up, per-km-driven fatality rates on the already safest roads in much of the world fell dramatically in the months immediately following since the introduction of HTA172, more-so than any other jurisdiction in North American, and have continued to fall since then.

 

[CruisnGrrl]

I've Had my "M" for 20 yrs... times pulled over on a BIKE "Crotch Rocket" 0000000000000(ZERO)
*NOTE* I don't do stupid stuff in public areas, I've never even been stopped in ride programs... I know eventually I will, but 0 in 20yrs is a good start..
I go on the theory: Ride Respectful, Ride Smart and they will leave you alone( for the most part).
I would probably ride fast, but I don't trust anyone else on the road, my time is spent watching there stupid habits to keep my A*S alive..:lmao:

Been riding almost as long as I've been on GTAM (ie not long). I've gone through 3 ride programs, though nothing to worry about as i wasn't drinking, they all asked if i was drinking... then they wanna chitchat about the bike. I don't have any issue with the ride programs, wish they still handed out coupons though.

 

[turbodish]

As expected, turbodish just ignored my post. When presented with facts (the studies, et al) he just whitewashes over it and keeps going. A true politician. That's not an endearing title, BTW.

You've presented precious little but opinion, and much of it anarchistic opinion at that. That is the sign of a politician, or worse.

 

[Prince]

The default position of the GSXR owner."Bra, I could pass ya any time bra"

I had this conversation with some popo I was riding with. I said "so what have you accomplished?" The guy is/was a high earner, now he's going to lose his license, possibly his job 'cause he can't get insurance to get to work, possibly his wife 'cause he can't support the family. So he gives up and ends up a product of the state on welfare. A previous high-earning, high-tax-paying, citizen, now basically a bum. His kids will go no where as they'll never see the inside of a college. This is how America works. Said high-paying tax citizen could be traveling home from work with a roach or a dime-bag and end up a criminal in jail! So, what as a cop did you just accomplish for the state? The punishment should fit the crime. And the punishment should only be held to that of a judge's vast experience with the law. Judges tend to be able to see the ripple effect downwards of someone speeding on a sportbike vs. serious crime. They have objectivity. Cops generally don't as they are too drunk on adrenaline and too immature and too troubled mentally.

@reciprocity Stereotype much? More and more popo are getting into SS. They're learning on 600's. I could blow past them, but why would I challenge them and ruin a good thing? Nome sayin "bra?"

 

[Shaman]

You've presented precious little but opinion, and much of it anarchistic opinion at that. That is the sign of a politician, or worse.

Au contraire. Let me explain to you about a little-understood option here on GTAM. It's call a "search option." You go into the search spot at the top right side of the forum and you type in a phrase you might want to research from a previous thread. Such as "speed study," or to be more granular, "italian speed study" or maybe "texas speed study," something along those lines. I just refuse to type out hours worth of retort that you'll simply ignore and continue pushing your personal agenda to "protect" us all with a combination of propaganda, manufactured statistics, surveillance cameras and ubiquitous; omnipotent police presence.

 

[Shaman]

I had this conversation with some popo I was riding with. I said "so what have you accomplished?" The guy is/was a high earner, now he's going to lose his license, possibly his job 'cause he can't get insurance to get to work, possibly his job, possibly his wife 'cause he can't support the family. So he gives up and ends up a product if the state on welfare. A previous high-earning, high-tax-paying, citizen, now basically a bum. His kids will go no where as they'll never see the inside of a college. This is how America works. Said high-paying tax citizen could be traveling home from work with a roach or a dime-bag and end up a criminal in jail! So, what as a cop did you just accomplish for the state? The punishment should fit the crime. And the punishment should only be held to that of a judges vast experience with the law. Judges tend to be able to see the ripple effect downwards of someone speeding on a sportbike vs. serious crime. They have objectivity. Cops generally don't as they are too drunk on adrenaline and too immature and too troubled mentally.@reciprocity More and more popo are getting into SS. They're learning on 600's. I could blow past them, but why would I challenge them and ruin a good thing?*

Nailed it in one.

Tough on crime is stupid on crime.

I'll add that the worst riders I've ever seen on motorcycles are by far police. I don't mean just unskilled, I mean truly heinous stupidity on a motorcycle. I've even cited specific cases that other people were there to witness, if you have a care to use the search option I explained to turbodish, above.

 

[Flywheel]

You've presented precious little but opinion, and much of it anarchistic opinion at that. That is the sign of a politician, or worse.

The same sort of politicians who cherry-pick from sources to justify ever greater powers? What's "or worse", I wonder? Former attorney generals and OPP commissioners that run for cover when they break their own pet laws?

Don't bother replying, because I'm wrong, right? I couldn't possibly know how to think or behave without a taser-armed cop telling me what to do, huh?

 

[CruisnGrrl]

The same sort of politicians who cherry-pick from sources to justify ever greater powers? What's "or worse", I wonder? Former attorney generals and OPP commissioners that run for cover when they break their own pet laws?

Don't bother replying, because I'm wrong, right? I couldn't possibly know how to think or behave without a taser-armed cop telling me what to do, huh?

Like the politician that used turbofacts and turbofacts to try to pass a bill to ban minors from riding 2 up on the back of motorcycles.

 

[turbodish]

Like the politician that used turbofacts and turbofacts to try to pass a bill to ban minors from riding 2 up on the back of motorcycles.

What does that subject have to do with me? Are you that desperate to find any opportunity to slag at me? If so, maybe you should grow up just a bit, or a lot.

As far as "turbofacts" are concerned, they are not "my" facts. I use a variety of factual and statistical information from creditable sources to back up my opinions. If you have issues with them, find your own facts to dispute them, if you can. You continually deriding what I present as "turbofacts" or "turbostats" has a lot of resemblance to an immature little kid pounding at the walls and screaming profanities because they don't like what they hear. Surely you can do better than that?

 

[Prince]

Stop with the common sense...there's no place for it in this forum. As for Mr Prince.....how many moons can you see from your planet?

I don't know why any of us keep arguing this point over and over. Everyone on here makes good points, but at the end of he day, it's only going to get worse for supersport riders, not better. Best thing you can do is start looking toward the end of supersport bikes on public roads and accept it. I have. As painful as it's going to be, we're all going to have to look to the track to keep our licenses. The popo aren't going to stop hunting you any time soon. Perhaps get a cruiser like JC100 with "six into six straight pipes" and we can all become law abiding, ear bleeding, noise polluting citizens like him pretending to be "bad-*** mofo's" 'cause we're loud. Seriously tho, some kind of liesure bike and a track bike is in my future. Your license is just too important a piece of paper in your life. No license = no life. It's just that simple.

 

[Wingboy]

We have a couple of good threads right now that will end up being locked or deleted with personal attacks being posted.Speaking for myself,i value Turbo's posts just as much as Cruisngrrl's.
Please take it to pm's. Regards, Ric

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