Kitchener man charged with racing – 177 km/h in 80 zone on motorcycle

hhhmmm....if you hit a child who ran on the street in front of you, is it your fault or the parents who are supposed to be looking after that child?

If speeding is so serious, why didn't the government make it law that all vehicles have speed limiters on their vehicles like trucks do instead of introducing a money grab law like 172? Just one innocent person who dies due to 'excessive speed' would justify the rule, no?

So now I have no choice but to blame the government who made such a silly rule responsible for every death due to 'speeding' since they had the power to stop it before it happened, but chose not to. Isn't that their job...to protect us from ourselves?
 
hhhmmm....if you hit a child who ran on the street in front of you, is it your fault or the parents who are supposed to be looking after that child?

If speeding is so serious, why didn't the government make it law that all vehicles have speed limiters on their vehicles like trucks do instead of introducing a money grab law like 172? Just one innocent person who dies due to 'excessive speed' would justify the rule, no?

So now I have no choice but to blame the government who made such a silly rule responsible for every death due to 'speeding' since they had the power to stop it before it happened, but chose not to. Isn't that their job...to protect us from ourselves?

Don't hold your breath. The nanny state you speak of is on it's way in. It used to be that we world-proofed our children. Now society wants to child-proof the world.

HTA 172. other laws and the demerit system were designed to accomplish just what you propose - protect those who can't protect themselves. The rules are set and the referees are watching. Get too many strikes and you're out of the game. It's the peoples' road and they set the rules. If you don't like them, try and change them. In order for the roads to remain reasonably safe and orderly, there must be a set of rules. Could you imagine the calamity on the 401 if there were no rules......some people stopped, kids playing hockey & soccer in the the express lanes, bicycles, skateboarders, motorists traveling anywhere from 0kph to 320kph? Why not? No one's really hurting anyone else, unless there is a crash. :rolleyes:
 
The North American police mentality is based on the idea of catching you because traffic violations are apparently more important than other things. Some cities/counties have guidelines they have to follow that will force them to give up chase, but until they reach that point, Mr Officer will pursuit.
As another member here mentioned on a different thread, traffic violations in Europe aren't considered a big deal so therefore they don't really chase to begin with and are perfectly fine with stock vehicles with Police schemes on them.
That would never work here in North America.


I'm sorry that I don't fully understand what you're saying but if you're in the mindset that the civilian use of motorcycles on city streets only has one purpose and that's to go fast, then I'm laughing pretty loudly. Based on what you're saying, this can then be applied to cars as well. "Buy a BMW, look good and go fast."
When it comes to any vehicle that is designed for sport, the manufacturers make them "fast" because they need to be...ON THE TRACK! This applies to both cars and bikes. Manufacturers care more about how well they do on the track than they do with street use. As a matter of fact in most, if not all, vehicle manuals it tells you to "use your car/bike responsibly and abide by your local traffic laws".



Having owned 2 cars that did well over 200kmh (and I'll admit I've visited that area of my spedometer quite often a few years ago), I could easily tell the Crown Vics I drove would reach those speeds if I were given enough road and a proper environment. When I gave the first one a good boot, I did reach 160kmh and there were plenty of horses left unused, it's easy to tell. Having worked in the delivery of vehicles in the past, I have had the opportunity to drive well over 250 different models of cars, anywhere from Hyundais to Ferraris.



That's if the rider maintained his speed until the police officer was on his tail.
Read the part where I said something to the effect of "when the rider sees the police lights, he lets go of the throttle and begins to slow down and pull over right away, out of honesty and owning up to his mistakes".
You'd be surprised, some people actually DO pull over as soon as they see police lights in their mirrors after they've done something they know is illegal. (i know this because I have done it a couple times, and luckily avoided tickets this way).

I think i can agree to disagree with your points, and i get what you mean, i've pulled over right away when i see the lights and most times i was let go it was just random checks anyways. on the bike i've never actually had a real problem.


And for those who were asking if i was high or what not with my long post, well there were a few problems, it was my second try, the first time when i wrote it and tried to post i got logged out, some of my keys don't depress properly on my key pad, and the second time well... i didn't check my grammar or spellings, sorry for that, but as you can tell when it comes to giving out the right information about accidents im quiet passionate about it. You can make jokes and laugh about it, because frankly it dosen't make a difference but acknowledge your ignorance towards information. I would like to see the same resposnses if God forbid anyone of you almost lost your lives and lived to tell about it.
 
I did some checking on this online - i was curious also.

Since they work on the imperial system in the UK, i had to switch things over ..

80 km/h == 49.7 mph
177 km/h == 109.98 mph

And this is what the site came up with, assuming the rider had a clean licence and more than 2 years experience before the oopsie on a non-motorway (Non 400 series highway, here) .. http://www.drivingban.co.uk/drivingban/free_legal_advice_help/speeding_calculator.htm



Yikes.

you picked the UK of all places?? A nanny state even worse than Canada with even higher taxes.
Go to the Czech republic, speeding is not frowned upon, and wheelies get smiles from the cops.
 
ETR - 2 questions:

1. Do you think the mother of the 5 year old who was killed would feel differently if her daughter was hit by a bike doing 177, rather than a mindless texting drone?
2. Would you feel differently about your own accident if you were hit by a bike instead of a car, given that his bike is meant to go fast anyway so he really wasn't doing anything wrong according to you?

Alan

1. You know you have legit questions, but let me ask you, how likely is that to happen on Younge street on a busy weekday at 2:30pm in the afternoon? The simple answer is the mother would probably not care who hit her child, but you have to think, how likely is the possibility of that happening where it happened? The only way a bike going at 177kmh is possible is if the bike was either cruising at the speed on a HWY where no pedestrains exists, or in rural roads where there are no traffic lights to slow them down, in a city day or night those speeds would be impossible to maintain, before either having to spot at every traffic light or being pulled over.


2. Firstly, it surprises me how most readers tend to skim over posts, i was hit while standing next to my bike, basically gettin off it in a parking lot, and then someone who just started their vehicle, slammed on the gas pedal while on the phone not looking straight, plowing through me, and even after hitting me, got out and ignored me as i was unconcious and half paralysed on the floor while he was freaking out on the fact that their vehicle got damaged, then had the odasity to threaten my family to sue me for damages. So as you can see, how likely is a bike to kill me in that situation, and if even the rare chance i did get hit like that with a bike, im SURE the other bikers concern towards my life and his appology would not make me feel threatened for my life beyond the accident and actually not feel bad about the whole situation realizing that the other person was caring enough not to try and screw me over etc, and im not the type of person who lives in the past tense, if i were to go out today and lets say to make your point i was riding and some biker hit me, i would most likely be able to avoid it if not, well it has never happened yet in my 15 plus years of riding off road and onroad i will let you know how i feel when i do.

Im also not differentiating the difference between the cars and bikes, but rather saying that bikes are much less likely to cause a major accident then a car in the same circumstances, but that dosen't mean every car should be violated and impounded, rather, the people with power need to acess the situation and judge the ticketing accordingly, not use a one off punisment. For example if i was a cop and caught the guy doing 177kmh in a rural area, maybe he just did a burst of that speed and then him pulling over not making things difficult and dangerous with a police chase id be able to judge the rider did do something risky but by his actions so far he did do everything so far keeping some barrier of safety for others and me not having to chase him. Maybe bring the ticket down to 15 over and give a warning and let him go, that would make him feel like they got lucky and mostlikely not do it again if they are honest, if not they would get caught later anyways, based on the guy being older i could tell he probably has a family to support as well. VS the same situation in a city, then the guy not stopping causing a chase then regarless of age and what else the driver should be ticketed and punished accordingly etc.

Because if everyone gets the same violation for different severety levels of violations, then what was the point of me spending $300 every few years learning defensive driving, improving my car or bike to handle and work better on the roads, vs the people who don't even maintain their cars or bikes, those drivers who drive around with absolutely no concern for anyone. Thats the differense, we can't put everyone in the same box, we have to judge each situation accordingly. And when it comes to accidents, i will tell you this, be it bike or car, its always those personailties that have nooo conern for what they are doing when operating their vehicle or the dangers of what they are operating, the skill to control what they are operating, the patientce of when and when not to <(for bikes).
 
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you picked the UK of all places?? A nanny state even worse than Canada with even higher taxes.
Go to the Czech republic, speeding is not frowned upon, and wheelies get smiles from the cops.

Before or after you pay the bribe?
 
I'm just glad this psychopathic madman's criminally speeding motorcycle didn't cut some poor, unsuspecting, innocent impaired driver's car in half and kill him while he was in the process of making a left turn into his lane.
 
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Care to back that up? I'll give you a hint, every time you try I'll present you with something to counter your argument having lived there for quite a while.Knowledge is power...ignorance is bliss.I bless your bliss. Amen.

I don't know Holmes, but I'll back that up.They ARE much more liberal in Europe regarding traffic offenses. Unlike the US, where they will "kill" you to stop you i.e. using a PIT maneuver on a bike (which they will do), Europeans are much more intelligent than to have that cowboy-like mentality. I mentioned in another post that we [Ontario] are sadly taking our queue from the US rather than Britain, where we used to draw from. Have you noticed the difference in cops in the last ten - fifteen years in Ontario? Going from "Constable" to "Dude?" We used to respect and have a healthy fear of our police in Canada, until they started treating us like Americans. America has more people in jail than the population of Toronto!

Take the Ghost Rider here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx1CkPcICaY

Europe:

This is Sweden. There is one cop following protocol, keeping a safe distance, not really interested or motivated to chase the Ghost Rider. Why? Because Europeans know what American's don't. It's not worth the life of one civilian to chase "anyone." A chase will most certainly end with an innocent civilian stopping Ghost Rider with his or her life. It's just not worth that risk. That's intelligent policing. They "will get him another day", and they did as he was loading up his bike.

Los Angeles:

Take the same Ghost Rider video to Los Angeles. There will be ten to twenty black and whites on the Ghost Rider a police helicopter with a heat seeking camera, two or three media helicopters chasing the police helicopter! They will (stupidly) chase the Ghost Rider until they kill him, or he kills someone. They will stop him no matter what the cost to civilian life. And then they will sell this footage to Fox to be released as entertainment on "Disorderly Conduct." They are Americans..."cowboys."

With more cops comes more crime. And the harder those cops push, the harder the public pushes back. It's Newton's Third Law of Physics, and it's common sense.
 
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America has more people in jail than the population of Canada!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States

(BJS) 7,225,800 people at yearend 2009 were on probation, in jail or prison, or on parole — about 3.1% of adults in the U.S. resident population.[SUP][7][/SUP][SUP][4][/SUP] 2,292,133 were incarcerated in U.S. prisons and jails at year end 2009.[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][7][/SUP][SUP][4][/SUP]

G[/URL]ranted, that's about the population of Toronto. But you're off by more than an order of magnitude.
 
ETR
I agree it's not likely to happen on Yonge St., but it is possible on quiet country roads where the residents don't expect anyone to behave in such a fashion. Little kid playing in front yard chases ball onto road (not like that has never happened) and bad things follow. As a rider you assess the possibilities and set your risk level, but at 177 you increase every risk. Imagine hitting a cute bunny rabbit at 177?

As to your accident, I was referring to the 2nd you you talked about (sucks that you have 2 to talk about btw). If it was a bike tearing around your neighbourhood would you feel the same way?

I would encourage you to keep taking the advanced driving courses, I certainly intend to. These are what gives us the edge over the idiots on the road, allows us to see things before they become serious incidents. As riders we are generally so much more aware just by being more vulnerable to other's actions, so anything we can do to improve our odds is a good thing. Doing double the speed limit or driving in ways other motorists can't expect or predict doesn't help us. We all have different skill levels, but there is no practical way to identify who is good or otherwise until the opportunity arises to either have or avoid a crash. I wish there were, other than by insurance premiums apparently, because I would really like to know who to avoid before they reach for the cellphone...

Alan
 
I did some checking on this online - i was curious also.

Since they work on the imperial system in the UK, i had to switch things over ..

80 km/h == 49.7 mph
177 km/h == 109.98 mph

And this is what the site came up with, assuming the rider had a clean licence and more than 2 years experience before the oopsie on a non-motorway (Non 400 series highway, here) .. http://www.drivingban.co.uk/drivingban/free_legal_advice_help/speeding_calculator.htm



Yikes.

Except you aren't comparing apples to apples. A typical speed limit in the UK for that type of road is 60mph. Now you aren't doubling the limit..... sure you could probably still get a driving ban... dunno, I couldn't plug in the alleged number on your link.

At any rate, many of our limits make no sense because as it has been brought up in the past, town council sets the limits without any engineering studies. Take 6th Line on the east side of Milton. it is a 50kph zone between Britania and Lower Base..... JOKE! NO one EVER drives the limit on that road. I repeat NO ONE!!! That road should be 80kph and basically that's the speed all the Halton residents (Speed Demons... us Halton folks) drive that road at. Yet you get to 6th Line on the west side of Milton, across the 401 from Kelso off of Sideroad5.... the speed limit is 80, which is fine.... GOOD LUCK getting someone actually doing 80....often times people go well below 80.

My point - many speed limits are not reasonable. You aren't going to get a blood bath if they raised the limits on EVERY open road by 20 kph.... because people tend to drive at speeds they are comfortable with. The highway limit SHOULD BE 120-130.... the back roads should be around 100. Built up residential subdivisions should be 40 not a blanket 50.
 
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lol go to caledon court and see what ages of the peps charges with stunting.....caledon pigs like to sit in the transition zones to nab you then......it aint all the young pimple farms its the moms and pops.....dont matter the law is complete Garbage and just a cash cow......please you probably would get off lighter for a sexual assault charge here in Ontario........you hear 50 over and everyone cries blue murder..... its funny you dont hear of road death tolls anymore is kids drowning now and talking on cell phones......we need a Ted Kaczynski here in ON :laughing8:[h=1][/h]
WOW WTF! - I guess no regard for himself, family and others on the road if something went wrong and got hurt or died.
 
Except you aren't comparing apples to apples. A typical speed limit in the UK for that type of road is 60mph. Now you aren't doubling the limit..... sure you could probably still get a driving ban... dunno, I couldn't plug in the alleged number on your link.

I was just going with the nearest comparator that i could find to come up with the UK penalties, based upon that 'calculator'. Judging by this graph, you are likely correct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roads_in_the_United_Kingdom#Driving

Not having ever been to the UK, I can only go by what that 'calculator' indicated based upon the results it gave back - aside from the 'M' series motorways, I don't really know the road setup. I do know that the rural roads tend to be narrower and tighter, as compared to here, generally.

Regardless, the penalties appear to be equivelant to, if not harsher, than what is over here in terms of time, inconvenience, and money. i think that was the general point of the exercise in the speed differential comparison.
 
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You are right 'dude' :). Born and grew up in central Europe i can say one thing, i've never seen cops driving their cruisers in such a careless manner like here in Canada.
 
I was just going with the nearest comparator that i could find to come up with the UK penalties, based upon that 'calculator'. Judging by this graph, you are likely correct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roads_in_the_United_Kingdom#Driving

Not having ever been to the UK, I can only go by what that 'calculator' indicated based upon the results it gave back - aside from the 'M' series motorways, I don't really know the road setup. I do know that the rural roads tend to be narrower and tighter, as compared to here, generally.

Regardless, the penalties appear to be equivelant to, if not harsher, than what is over here in terms of time, inconvenience, and money. i think that was the general point of the exercise in the speed comparison.

Well sort of.... because let's look at it this way.

Here in many 80 zones you can easily do 130kph on a supersport..... = Stunting charge. In the UK and much of the world, there on roads like you mentioned that are tighter and twistier, the limits are often still 60mph which is almost 100kph. So getting busted for 81mph (130kph) probably won't lend you with a 7 day vehicle impound. I can't say I know their laws well enough, but 21mph over the limit..... if their penalties are the same as ours for 30 something kph over the limit..... then I think our laws are a lot more strict.

I guess what I am trying to say is that if you have a reasonable limit and you get caught speeding by x amount, then fine. However, if you have an unreasonably low limit and you get caught at the same speed ( = Ontario) then you get shafted..... without even going to court.

Take New Zealand for example. There are roads there that look sorta like Deals Gap where the speed limit is 100kph..... no joke. GOOD LUCK going that fast. If you get busted doing 30 over..... dunno their laws either, but probably less harsh penalty than getting busted on a similar road here doing 130. Here the speed limit on that road would probably be 60. So instead of getting a 30 over ticket, in Ontario you get a 70 over ticket.... same speed same type of road.
 
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Regardless, the penalties appear to be equivelant to, if not harsher, than what is over here in terms of time, inconvenience, and money. i think that was the general point of the exercise in the speed differential comparison.

Also, don't forget that the speed cameras and traffic cops in Britain typical won't give you anywhere near the same tolerance over the limit that you enjoy here. Not only are the penalties tough, but the enforcement threshold is also tough.
 
Also, don't forget that the speed cameras and traffic cops in Britain typical won't give you anywhere near the same tolerance over the limit that you enjoy here. Not only are the penalties tough, but the enforcement threshold is also tough.

It doesn't matter when you have an extra 20-40kph legal speed to play with.

And by the way they have studies in the UK showing that in areas where they have lowered speed limits and increased speed camera presence .... fatalities have increased.

And one more thing - many speed cameras are forward facing = not a worry for motorcycles.
 
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ETR
I agree it's not likely to happen on Yonge St., but it is possible on quiet country roads where the residents don't expect anyone to behave in such a fashion. Little kid playing in front yard chases ball onto road (not like that has never happened) and bad things follow. As a rider you assess the possibilities and set your risk level, but at 177 you increase every risk. Imagine hitting a cute bunny rabbit at 177?

As to your accident, I was referring to the 2nd you you talked about (sucks that you have 2 to talk about btw). If it was a bike tearing around your neighbourhood would you feel the same way?

I would encourage you to keep taking the advanced driving courses, I certainly intend to. These are what gives us the edge over the idiots on the road, allows us to see things before they become serious incidents. As riders we are generally so much more aware just by being more vulnerable to other's actions, so anything we can do to improve our odds is a good thing. Doing double the speed limit or driving in ways other motorists can't expect or predict doesn't help us. We all have different skill levels, but there is no practical way to identify who is good or otherwise until the opportunity arises to either have or avoid a crash. I wish there were, other than by insurance premiums apparently, because I would really like to know who to avoid before they reach for the cellphone...

Alan

Yes it is definately possible on quiet country roads, like i mentioned to go that fast there is nothing preventing anyone from getting the urge to blast down at those speeds, the likely hood of a child running down the street is even more slim in the country roads then in the city, but definately not impossible, it can happen, and i try to think possitive that it won't. As i was growing up though i had several friends who lived on these country roads, and growing up, the numberone thing they were always yelled at and taught was to stay away from the main road, for safety purposes i guess.

Personally, if i ever was to get such an urge i would never hit those speeds anywhere except on an open hwy with no traffic at wee hours of the morning. But even then i have come to realise Canada is simply not the place to do this kinda adrenalin stuff, even if you get away, you can get caught the next time round or eventually hurt one self, and then get nailed after with tickets and so on. Also like i mentioned several times before, im not against, neither with the person who this post is about, we all do things sometimes that we can learn from, some of us arn't that lucky, and some are, to get off by a slap on the wrist. But i guess because im a caring person, and i care for people just like i care about the nature we live in and the animals we see, i will defend us against any sort of harm, even the most evil of people against me i tend to think are just confused and just learning and are weak to their emotions or situation and need time to catch up.

I feel that we shouldn't destroy anyones life just to make an example out of them. Lets say i accidently killed someone, i tend to think any honest person would go through emotional torture knowing they killed someone, that alone would be enough punishment i think, and if you believe in a creator and such, you would know your going to have to answer to them about why we had been careless toward his creation. Not to get too spiritual, but i see that there is no point in life to point fingers, or punish anyone and make them out to be the worst person alive and accuse them of something they haven't even done "like kill someone" just speeding (in this case very fast i agree) while there are car theives, drug lords and murderers and rapists silently getting away with worse crimes that night. while this guy was blasted all over the media, there was nothing about someone who ACTUALLY DID KILL a little girl, i mean that is just plain discusting for me, why because this kind of stuff happens every day and its the norm and not media worthy, because it was just some young girl driving her car texting and running over a 5 year old girl and killing her and leaving her mother childless.

At the end of the day, be it speeding, talking on the phones, or driving without due care it all comes down to risk, we should be investigating which risk kills most without any variables...A person can train themselves to drive fast and avoid accidents but no one can avoid an accident when talking on the phone and looking the other way while texting. You see what im trying to point out. This is just an example im trying to put down.

Honestly, i live next to a hwy and i hear lots of sports cars going past or bikes going up north, and it couldn't be more enjoyable, the sounds of these machese are sweet while having a nice cold one in my front porch.lol I don't think anyone in my neigbourhood could even reach speeds of more then 30kmh, but no one does that because i guess everyone knows its not safe to. To add, personally i wouldn't go over 80-90kmh on those 80kmh country roads because i know if lets say a patch of un even surface suddenly is under you, your bikes going to turn and your going straight into the farm or someones house or on coming car. some things arn't worth taking the risk even if the riders skill is there, and sometimes we give into our adrenaline side, no ones perfect, i certainly am not, and i stoped doing adrenaline rush and risky high speed things, because once i realised that i could even get hit by someone else (out all the situations almost get killed just getting off my bike), then anything else is possible. This is why if i want to stunt with my bike i do it where No ONE is around and off the roads and the onlything that can get damaged is my bike or me, but as i get older i have less time to even do that, im just not into the whole thing anymore realising that tickets, court and cost are simply not worth my headache, i will do that when i go to europe like germany where speeding laws are lenient, so for someone who seldom pushes their car or bike, its not a big deal for the authorities, unlike here, you could go out one time through the whole year just do a little over 140kmh on the hwy and get nailed with heavy fines, the insurance hike, then loosing so many other things along with it, not to mention ones sanity and health.

I think im done with this thread, i only wanted to address your questions because i felt they were legit and good! and i didn't want to be rude and leave you hanging.lol :) have a good one!
 
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Lol...they have that protocol here in Canada and in the UK actually.
May 24 weekend there was a CBR1000 into the back of an SUV. When it came across CP24 the first time the reporter stated "the result of a high speed OPP chase." The rider had bailed onto the HWY and obviously didn't make it. The subsequent reporting of the story left out any reference to "the high speed OPP chase." Someone is going to die running and HTA172 will be modified or repealed when the question is asked "why did that 40 year old father of two with no criminal history run from the police?"
 
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