York cops put lid on missing arms info

rafiki911

Well-known member
Site Supporter
Just read this on the first page of todays Metro."This month, the Toronto Star revealed Peel officers have lost a small arsenal of weapons in recent years.Nearly 75% of the weapons lost or stolen-a list includeds two sniper riffles, pepper spray canisters, loaded ammunition magazines and dozens of police batons-are still missing."WOW
 
did JAMIE steal em!? for his gun running trade?
 
So... two Remington 700 rifles.... probably stolen by cops.

That's some Arsenal.

Boring news day I guess.
 
So... two Remington 700 rifles.... probably stolen by cops.

That's some Arsenal.

Boring news day I guess.

Summary of the number of firearms missing or stolen from the police in Canada:
- Firearms Lost by and Stolen from the RCMP = 32
- Firearms Lost by and Stolen from other Police Services = 316
- Firearms Lost by and Stolen from other Public Service Agencies = 80
 
That's not whats posted but anyway...

Again, big deal.

I am however really concerned about the police batons. I mean really, sticks of wood are out there and nobody knows where.

The horror.
 
Last edited:
LOL. Good work PRP! Not like we have a growing gang problem here or anything....
 
How funny would reading the reports be...I wanna see them and what excuses thry came up with for losing their equipment. lol
 
Anybody have the statistics for legal law abiding gun owners?
 
How funny would reading the reports be...I wanna see them and what excuses thry came up with for losing their equipment. lol

A lot of them they didnt even acknowledge or wrote down that it was solved when it really wasnt. I'll try and find the full article for you...
 
Canada’s National Firearms Association Media Release 28 September 2011
For Immediate Release
428 FIREARMS GO MISSING FROM POLICE ARSENALS, RCMP REPORT

Police should be asking, “How many of our guns have fallen into the wrong hands?”

A recent Access to Information Act request found that the RCMP acknowledges that 428 firearms have been lost by or stolen from the RCMP, other police services and public agencies in Canada. “The police are quick to point accusing fingers at law-abiding gun owners who have their firearms stolen from them but aren’t so quick to admit their failure to keep their own firearms out of the hands of criminals,” said National Firearms Association President, Sheldon Clare.

This new information was obtained from the RCMP through an Access to Information Act request submitted as a collaborative effort by two independent researchers, Gary A. Mauser, Professor Emeritus, Simon Fraser University and Dennis R. Young, retired Parliamentary Assistant to Garry Breitkreuz, MP. The RCMP does not regularly report information on lost or stolen firearms to Parliament.

Summary of the number of firearms missing or stolen from the police in Canada:
- Firearms Lost by and Stolen from the RCMP = 32
- Firearms Lost by and Stolen from other Police Services = 316
- Firearms Lost by and Stolen from other Public Service Agencies = 80
For more details: http://www.nfa.ca/sites/default/files/RCMP-ATI-Firearms-Stolen-from-Police.pdf

No time frame was given in the RCMP’s response to the ATI request, but it appears that these firearms were lost or stolen since the Police and Public Agency Regulations came into force in October 2008 and all firearms in police inventories had to be registered with the RCMP by October 31, 2009. The information in this ATI does not include the numbers of firearms stolen from the military as the RCMP doesn't collect that information.

Back in 2002, MP Garry Breitkreuz, MP, submitted a similar ATI request and as of September 2003, the RCMP reported 17 firearms stolen, 3 lost and 88 others that they were still “tracing”. As in the recent request, the RCMP gave no time frame. Since the Police and Public Agency Regulations came into force, the RCMP has been able to report the number of firearms that have been stolen from other police services in Canada.

More information on Police and Public Agencies can be examined at this location:
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/information/ppa-pap/index-eng.htm

“Many police have been fixated on firearms being stolen from law-abiding gun owners, charging many of them with “careless storage” following a firearms theft rather than putting the blame and focus of their investigations where it rightfully belongs, with the criminals who are stealing the guns. Most police and law-abiding gun owners are storing their firearms properly but these new statistics prove that criminals will always find a way to foil the most secure gun safes and locking devices. It’s time for police to stop treating law-abiding gun owners as part of the problem and work with us to help catch the real bad guys out there,” concluded Mr. Clare.
 
Heres the full article the op is talking about, heres the link http://www.thestar.com/mobile/NEWS/article/1063373


Peel police officers have lost a small arsenal of weapons in recent years and most are still missing.

Nearly 75 per cent of the weapons lost or stolen since 1994 — a list that includes two sniper rifles, pepper spray canisters, loaded ammunition clips and dozens of police batons — have never been recovered.

The Star analyzed 45 police occurrence reports from 2005 to 2010 in which a firearm, ammunition or use-of-force equipment was lost or stolen. The reports, obtained through access to information legislation, revealed officers losing weapons in a variety of public places, including a Tim Hortons shop, a parking lot and a park.

There were at least five instances where the weapons disappeared inside a police facility.

The Star also found eight cases in the past two years where police wrote off the cases as “complete” and “solved,” even though the weapons were never recovered.

Police officials say they have adopted stricter tracking and accountability measures since Chief Mike Metcalf was appointed in 2006. Yet the number of officers losing their weapons has remained about steady.

“Losing that much equipment shows negligence and just a lack of caring. That seems to me to be the big problem,” said John Sewell, a former Toronto mayor who heads the Toronto Police Accountability Coalition.

Over the past six months, the Star has made similar information requests to Toronto Police Service, Ontario Provincial Police, Durham Regional Police Service and York Regional Police.

Toronto police estimated a fee of more than $1,600 just for a breakdown of police equipment that has gone missing since 2003. The other forces have yet to give a cost estimate.

Peel Sgt. Peter Brandwood said the force “recognizes the public interest in maintaining strict control over police-issued use-of-force options” and it conducts regular audits on its firearms and equipment.

An equipment committee has also implemented “strict standards in the maintenance, storage and updating of equipment,” he said. Peel officials would not say what those standards are.

“The Peel Police Services Board, and, I can safely say, the Peel Regional Police, take the issue of every lost use-of-force option extremely seriously,” said Emil Kolb, who has chaired the police board since 1996.

Officers can be disciplined if they lose their weapons through negligence or carelessness. Under the Police Services Act, officers may be required to pay for the missing equipment.

But it’s unclear how often — if at all — punitive measures are used.

None of the 45 reports of missing or stolen police weapons from 2005 to 2010 mentions disciplinary actions or restitutions. Peel police would not say whether any of the 45 officers were punished.

“Chief Metcalf has taken a strong and consistent approach to discipline during his tenure and has ensured that officers are held accountable for any misconduct in relation to firearms or issued equipment,” Brandwood said. “Where the equipment is lost during the course of duties without any evidence of negligence, no disciplinary action would be taken.”

In an analysis of the 45 cases from 2005 to 2010, most officers lost weapons during their day-to-day patrols and duties. In a third of the cases, the officers don’t know how, or sometimes where, they lost the weapons.

Police reports show 22 per cent of the weapons were lost while the officer was chasing a suspect or making an arrest.

In September 2008, Const. Greg Hope realized a gym bag containing his baton, badge, holster and other equipment was missing from his home. The bag had been thrown out while Hope’s basement was being renovated.

On the occurrence report, the lost equipment is valued at $0. There is no mention of any discipline.

While preparing for retirement in 2010, Const. Philip McQuay informed his supervisor he lost his baton “sometime over the past 25 years.”

“I got a feeling it’s probably somewhere in my house. I just can’t find it,” a now retired McQuay said when reached at his Mississauga home. He said he had been out of uniform for several years and stored the baton in a safe place at home. At some point, he forgot where his safe place was.

“If I would have reported it a long time ago had I looked for it, they probably would have criticized, reported, put something on my record. But because I’m retiring in a month’s time, what good is a disciplinary action going to do?”

The case was ruled “solved.” The baton is still missing.

“Closing cases on lost or stolen police weapons when you haven’t recovered it seems bizarre, if not outright nonsensical,” said Edward Sapiano, a Toronto criminal lawyer and an outspoken critic of police and the justice system.

Police officials did not answer repeated questions on why eight cases were declared solved when the weapon was still missing.

In one incident, Sgt. John McDonald lost his expandable metal baton after leaving rifle requalification training on Derry Rd. In his report, McDonald said the weapon likely fell out of his scabbard in a parking lot.

“My primary concern is these weapons falling into the hands of children or thugs,” said Sapiano, who co-created a gun amnesty program to allow people to surrender firearms without having to be identified. One of the guns handed over was a 9-mm Glock stolen from a Toronto police officer.

Peel police are careful never to call the missing batons, pepper spray or ammunition clips “weapons,” preferring instead the term “equipment.”

But the euphemism is deceptive, Sapiano charged.

“To convert what is normally called a weapon in the courtroom to being called ‘equipment,’ is minimizing the consequences of its loss,” he said. “Those same police officers won’t be calling it a tool or equipment in the courtroom when an 18-year-old is being tried for possessing it as a weapon.”

In at least five cases, the weapons disappeared inside a police facility.

In October 2006, Const. Matthew Osborne left his gun belt out inside 22 Division in Brampton before leaving for a week off work. When he returned, the belt — and the pepper spray, baton, and two 11-round magazines it carried — had been taken. The weapons were never recovered.

Officers Osborne, McDonald and Hope all declined to comment when contacted by the Star.

Meanwhile, two officers had their batons vanish from police storage while they were on leave — one on maternity, the other deployed in Afghanistan with the military.

It’s rare a gun goes missing. But of the six lost or stolen since 1998, four have never been recovered.

In 1999, veteran Peel Sgt. John Trainor was charged with stealing a sniper rifle from the force’s training bureau. He was suspended with pay and retired a short time later. In 2001, he pleaded guilty to two firearm-related charges and the theft charge was withdrawn. The rifle was never found.

More recently, a 2010 occurrence report shows an officer was mistakenly given two Smith & Wesson pistols, one of which is now missing. Police suspect the second gun was internally destroyed, although there are no records, according to the occurrence report.

In two cases where officers’ handguns were lost and then later found, both officers were disciplined, Brandwood said. Any lost or stolen gun is investigated by Peel’s internal affairs bureau.

Police officials would not say whether the same standard applies for missing batons, ammunition clips or pepper spray, the weapons police most commonly lose.

“If they keep losing certain pieces of equipment in certain activities, surely there are procedures they can do to protect that equipment,” said Sewell of the Toronto Police Accountability Coalition.

“You have a sense that because they’re not talking about these kinds of changes, they don’t really care, they think they can get away with it. And I think that’s wrong.”
 
Last edited:
How funny would reading the reports be...I wanna see them and what excuses thry came up with for losing their equipment. lol

Most of the time it's not until the do a vault audit that they find out whats missing and usually what is missing is due to lazy/incompetent people forgetting to get the cops to sign stuff out or not doing a proper count when stuff is returned.

The have a system where an outside officer comes in to do the inventory because they can't let the internal guys do it or they fake the paperwork.

Find the statistics of how much office equipment is "missing or stolen" from the government and then guess how much is internal...

People steal from work.

Don't you?

:)
 
Thanks Dohhh for posting up the actual articles.

D23 I don't steal from work or anyone.
 
And the plot thickens...

http://www.thestar.com/news/article...ons-personal-information-york-police-say?bn=1


York Regional Police refuse to release the occurrence reports on lost or stolen weapons, claiming the details on how the equipment went missing are officers’ private personal information.

The reports would likely show who lost the weapons, as well as where and how they went missing. But that’s considered private information and can’t be released without the permission of each officer who has missing equipment, said the force’s freedom of information analyst.

“If they’re losing something, that’s their personal information,” said Janet Ryland. “They might not have lost it in the line of duty, I don’t know, I haven’t gone through every single report. I’m just saying that’s their personal information.”

The Star requested the reports through access to information legislation as part of an ongoing investigation into lost or stolen weapons from police forces across the Greater Toronto Area.

Even with the officers’ names removed, York Regional Police say the information in the reports is private.

“The circumstances regarding how they were lost is still (an officer’s) personal information,” Ryland said.

It’s a hardline stance on what is considered public information, especially when compared to neighbouring Peel Regional Police.

Earlier this month, the Star revealed Peel officers have lost a small arsenal of weapons in recent years.

Nearly 75 per cent of the weapons lost or stolen — a list that includes two sniper rifles, pepper spray canisters, loaded ammunition magazines and dozens of police batons — are still missing.

The Star analyzed 45 police occurrence reports on missing police equipment from 2005 to 2010. Peel released the reports four months after the Star requested the information, waiving fees because of the delay.

The force later released more reports, removing officers’ names but leaving the details on how the weapons went missing.

“There was no personal aspect in what we provided,” said Tonia Pryce of Peel’s information and privacy unit. “There is really no personal information.”

The reports revealed officers losing their weapons in a variety of public places, from a Tim Hortons shop to a parking lot.

In one case, a Peel constable’s gun belt — along with the pepper spray, baton and two 11-round magazines it carried — disappeared after he left it in a Brampton police station before leaving for a week off work.

While an officer’s name may be considered private information, there is no reason the details of how or where the weapon went missing should be withheld from the public, said Michel Drapeau, a law professor at the University of Ottawa who specializes in access to information and privacy.

“It’s not personal information. It’s not police information that merits protection. It may be a cause of embarrassment for the police force but the courts have said over and over again, embarrassment isn’t a reason for exemption under the law,” he said.

The Star can appeal York Regional Police’s decision to the Information and Privacy Commissioner, an independent provincial body that reviews government institutions’ decisions on releasing government-held records.

Access to information legislation requires a government institution to disclose as much as possible without sharing exempted information — in this case, personal information — said Alexandra Mayeski, a lawyer with Heenan Blaikie.

“The purpose of the (legislation) is to promote transparency and accountability — things that are in the public interest,” she said.

“Where there are privacy interests, they should be protected. If an institution claims that there is a presumed invasion of someone's privacy, they must also consider whether disclosure is desirable for the purpose of subjecting the institution’s activities to public scrutiny.”

For $225, York Regional Police will release a breakdown of the number and types of weapons lost or stolen from the force since July 2005, Ryland said.

Over the past six months, the Star has made similar requests through access to information legislation to the Toronto Police Service, Ontario Provincial Police and Durham Regional Police Service.

Toronto police gave a fee estimate of more than $1,600 just for a breakdown of police equipment that has gone missing since 2003. The other forces have yet to give a cost estimate.
 
I have an idea...........check the billion dollar gun registry. I'm sure they'll find the missing guns there. Maybe we need billion dollar registries for batons, pepper spray, tasers and ammunition. :rolleyes:

I bet most of the weapons missing are probably still in police hands/vehicles, miscounted in storage, sold/transferred, out for repair/service or have been destroyed. Most likely administrative errors/omissions and unreconciled differences that are decades old. If the paper-trail is missing or incomplete, the firearm is, by default, entered into the system as stolen. A guy I know with a firearms business told me the CFO entered a ****-load of 12(6) snubbies as stolen, that were in fact, shipped to the US. Apparently, the CFO wasn't satisfied with the export and shipping documents.

As much as there is a carelessness in accounting for firearms, there is a greater carelessness in accounting for lost and stolen firearms. Nonetheless, it does create some fantastic headlines in the news. Maybe we should focus on looking for the bad guys instead.
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom