Toronto Budget problem | GTAMotorcycle.com

Toronto Budget problem

M

murf

Well-known member
with all this talk about the city of Toronto needing to raise money for infrastructure and transit it came to my attention that Toronto property tax rates have dropped more than 28% over the last 12 years as shown below:

http://www.toronto.ca/taxes/property_tax/tax_rates_previous.htm#2005

2001 : *1.07%
2002 : *1.1%
2003: * 0.99%
2004: * 0.89%
2005: * 0.91%
2008: * 0.87%
2010: * 0.83%
2011: * *0.79%
2012: * *0.77%

Surrounding cities currently have rates of over 1.1% with some areas as high as 1.6%.
It seems Toronto's poor financial situation is its own doing, and now some of the proposed solutions are to charge the people from outside the city more money to travel to Toronto, in essence applying even more tax onto people that pay double the property tax........this is absurd. *These people would be subsidizing the people that have been enjoying much higher property values in Toronto. *Not to mention that since the monthly property tax burden is artificially lower by over $200 *in many cases, that just fuels higher property values much like low interest rates do.
It would be interesting to calculate how many billions would of been generated if the tax rate had stayed at 1.07% ?
I am quite surprised this topic has not been discussed in the media?
My suggestion would be for Toronto to do the responsible thing......which is to increase property taxes to fund their projects, much like other cities do. *Instead of offloading their own problems to others. *Quite the concept?
 
murf said:
with all this talk about the city of Toronto needing to raise money for infrastructure and transit it came to my attention that Toronto property tax rates have dropped more than 28% over the last 12 years as shown below:

http://www.toronto.ca/taxes/property_tax/tax_rates_previous.htm#2005

2001 : *1.07%
2002 : *1.1%
2003: * 0.99%
2004: * 0.89%
2005: * 0.91%
2008: * 0.87%
2010: * 0.83%
2011: * *0.79%
2012: * *0.77%

Surrounding cities currently have rates of over 1.1% with some areas as high as 1.6%.
It seems Toronto's poor financial situation is its own doing, and now some of the proposed solutions are to charge the people from outside the city more money to travel to Toronto, in essence applying even more tax onto people that pay double the property tax........this is absurd. *These people would be subsidizing the people that have been enjoying much higher property values in Toronto. *Not to mention that since the monthly property tax burden is artificially lower by over $200 *in many cases, that just fuels higher property values much like low interest rates do.
It would be interesting to calculate how many billions would of been generated if the tax rate had stayed at 1.07% ?
I am quite surprised this topic has not been discussed in the media?
My suggestion would be for Toronto to do the responsible thing......which is to increase property taxes to fund their projects, much like other cities do. *Instead of offloading their own problems to others. *Quite the concept?
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I am no Economist but perhaps they lowered it because the price for a home in the 416 has shot up. In essence they are still collecting but we don't feel the bite.

The other point is why not tax the people coming into the city. They are users of the 416 infrastructure. The 416 has to handle their garbage, park use, abuses. Look at all the traffic that comes into and out of the city everyday. That is not fair that the people in the 416 has to pay for them.

In the end we will all get a nice tax hike anyways.
 
The price of homes has shot up everywhere, not just Toronto. If they need more money they should get those taxes back in line with the rest of the region. Or better yet, figure out where to save money elsewhere instead of ever-increasing spending. When regular folks run out of money they generally look at where they can save, not how they can earn more. Not sure why governments work the opposite way.
 
or better yet...
stop flying 1st class or chartered planes
having limos for government officials.
5 star hotels
running useless ad campaigns about how ''we will lower taxes next year'' or "new transit infrastructure coming soon" (this is all tax payer dollars for them to put those billboards etc out)
Auction off contruction and repair contracts to the company which can give the best product for lowest price
 
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BuckWild said:
I am no Economist but perhaps they lowered it because the price for a home in the 416 has shot up. In essence they are still collecting but we don't feel the bite.

The other point is why not tax the people coming into the city. They are users of the 416 infrastructure. The 416 has to handle their garbage, park use, abuses. Look at all the traffic that comes into and out of the city everyday. That is not fair that the people in the 416 has to pay for them.

In the end we will all get a nice tax hike anyways.
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I dont know of any other city that has lowered taxe rates as Toronto has in Ontario?
toronto already gets extra subsidies from the feds.
I thought other big cities may be similar to Toronto, but nope other big cities such as Ottawa, New York also pay taxes around 1.2 %
 
mmmnaked said:
The price of homes has shot up everywhere, not just Toronto. If they need more money they should get those taxes back in line with the rest of the region. Or better yet, figure out where to save money elsewhere instead of ever-increasing spending. When regular folks run out of money they generally look at where they can save, not how they can earn more. Not sure why governments work the opposite way.
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Because they feel entitled and it's not their money.
How in the hell does Mike Duffy and Pamela Whallen getting cushy Senator appointments (free money from us tax payers) can claim oh they did not know about their claims of having 2 homes etc...

Hmm let's see so that is 2 reporters with about 30 years each covering this same topic for decades and then doing the SAME thing.

Start attaching jail time and watch these problems go away.
 
BuckWild said:
Because they feel entitled and it's not their money.
How in the hell does Mike Duffy and Pamela Whallen getting cushy Senator appointments (free money from us tax payers) can claim oh they did not know about their claims of having 2 homes etc...

Hmm let's see so that is 2 reporters with about 30 years each covering this same topic for decades and then doing the SAME thing.

Start attaching jail time and watch these problems go away.
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That will never happen. Even if it did, they will never get convinced.
 
what you fail to understand is that property values in toronto doubled over the last 10 years, last i checked inflation is somewhere between 2-3% per year, not 10%.

people in toronto are paying out their *** in taxes, land transfer fees x2 basically.

its not a lack of revenue that is the problem, its the fact that its ****** away at every opportunity.
 
So they are rich, so others should pay?

Land transfer tax has been around for only 5 years, and if you dont move you dont pay.

My house has gone up 75% in that timeframe and so have property taxes....should my tax rate go down?
 
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Paul1000RR said:
what you fail to understand is that property values in toronto doubled over the last 10 years
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Uh, in case you're wondering, property values everywhere around Toronto also doubled.... yet the rest of us are also paying increasing property taxes.

I'd also be really curious to see how much tax is raised for the city from all those businesses which employ out-of-towners. Food for thought.
 
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imo....property tax should be a straight-forward formula of price-per-sq-ft of house combined with price-per-sq-ft of land....and that should be the end of discussion

property value should have zero influence

folks way outside the GTA may not like that the PT on their $500k home is $7k.....while the $800k home in the GTA is $4k

but the $500k home outside the GTA is probably a 2600 sq ft 2-storey on a 70x150 lot with 4 bedrooms, 4 bathrooms, a double car garage and driveway with parking for 4 cars....compared to the $800k bungalow in Toronto on a 40 x 130. 3 bedroom, 1 bathroom, single car garage and single car driveway

down the street from the $500k home outside the GTA is a 14 acre park

down the street from the $800k home in the GTA is a 40 storey condo


what GTA residents save in PT they make up for in lack of sq ft...not to mention the density
 
mmmnaked said:
Uh, in case you're wondering, property values everywhere around Toronto also doubled.... yet the rest of us are also paying increasing property taxes.

I'd also be really curious to see how much tax is raised for the city from all those businesses which employ out-of-towners. Food for thought.
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I'm curious to see how many of you out of toronto are willing to cover the TTC costs, add a permium for you folks. Toronto does have one of the highest commercial, industrial, multi residential property tax rates. Hell Richmond Hill is almost half of Toronto's commercial rates, less than half for multi residential rates.

MPAC royally screwed up in the paster few years and they are primary to blame for the current tax assessment situation and has the inherent risk of pricing alot of people out of their homes (hence the freeze in 2006).
 
The out of town folks are the ones who fuel all that industrial, office and retail space which pays the high taxes.

Not to mention the city spends tons of money elsewhere which could and should be appropriated to more urgent causes... http://feedly.com/k/XqG3SF
 
There's two reasons Toronto's tax rates are so low:

1) Our property values are so astronomically high if we paid the same rates as outside the city, we would be paying a lot more taxes compared to the services we receive

2) It actually costs less per capita to deliver services to residents of Toronto because of the population density. We have a much larger number of condos (higher density), fewer miles of road per person to maintain. We benefit from economies of scale.

It's unfair that an $800k house in Bramtpon with a family or maybe two or three living in it should pay the same taxes as an $800k bungalow in Toronto with a couple living in it, when the occupants of the house in Brampton consume several times the services, especially when it costs less per person to deliver those services to Torontonians.
 
giesen said:
There's two reasons Toronto's tax rates are so low:

1) Our property values are so astronomically high if we paid the same rates as outside the city, we would be paying a lot more taxes compared to the services we receive

2) It actually costs less per capita to deliver services to residents of Toronto because of the population density. We have a much larger number of condos (higher density), fewer miles of road per person to maintain. We benefit from economies of scale.

.
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If Toronto has such a benefit from economies of scale they should have even less of a problem with their budget......but thats not the case is it?

Surrounding cities property values also went up, and they didnt drop their tax rates and dont have a budget problem........ Pretty simple. Or are u suggesting they should drop their tax rates too?

Would Toronto property values be as high if the tax rate was at the level of 2002?
 
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While their budget problems are maybe not as bad, don't tell me they don't have a budget problem. Even Mississauga, which bragged for years that they don't have any debt, is in a deficit situation.

Also, the residents of communities outside Toronto use a far higher proportion if Toronto's services than Toronto residents use of theirs. Expressways (Gardiner, DVP), transit, etc. the Gardiner requires almost $700m in repairs... Who do you think the main users are of it? People who pay no property taxes in Toronto.
 
I live in Vaughan. My wife and I both work in Toronto. We buy lunches, gas, groceries, clothing, etc. in Toronto. We
also spend a lot of money in restaurants & other entertainment venues in Toronto on evenings/weekends. Our property taxes are higher than comparable houses in the city, but we could probably not afford a comparable house in the city.

Guess what would happen if I was being held financially responsible to use the city? You can bet my disposable $$ will no longer be coming to Toronto. Making those outside the city proper pay for infrastructure will do more harm to the Toronto economy than good.
 
giesen said:
While their budget problems are maybe not as bad, don't tell me they don't have a budget problem. Even Mississauga, which bragged for years that they don't have any debt, is in a deficit situation.

Also, the residents of communities outside Toronto use a far higher proportion if Toronto's services than Toronto residents use of theirs. Expressways (Gardiner, DVP), transit, etc. the Gardiner requires almost $700m in repairs... Who do you think the main users are of it? People who pay no property taxes in Toronto.
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I see, so Toronto should keep lowering their tax rate while their infrastructure deteriorates but the residents continue to enjoy high property values. Its intersting how ten or 20 years ago this wasnt the case when the Toronto tax rate was inline with other cities.
 
murf said:
I see, so Toronto should keep lowering their tax rate while their infrastructure deteriorates but the residents continue to enjoy high property values. Its intersting how ten or 20 years ago this wasnt the case when the Toronto tax rate was inline with other cities.
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Listen, I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm not arguing that property taxes should go down, in fact I think they should go up a bit (I would even support a reasonable levy to support new transit infrastructure), but to those who would argue that our tax rates should be the same as Brampton or Mississauga or Vaughan, you're freaking nuts.
 
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