The price of motorcycle insurance in Ontario is beyond outrageous

O

Old and Slow

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I just got a call from my State Farm agent informing me that the insurance on my 1998 ZX9-R will be doubling next year. The new cost will be just under $2300 a year. By the way, I am over 60 years old, with no at fault accidents since I was 18 and the last ticket I had was some time in the late seventies. I live in a rural (i.e. low risk) area. I posted this information on a Kawasaki ZX12-R forum and asked members in other jurisdictions what they pay for insurance. Here is a sampling of the responses. Read it and weep:


  • San Francisco: You would literally be paying between 10-20 dollars a month here... But wow... Its like a 2500 percent increase in price compared to our rates.
  • Minnesota: Dude that is absolutely insane rates. I pay $75 a year to insure my 12R.
  • Australia: I pay $340 a year and I have had one at fault accident where I wrote off an R1. You are being ripped off.
  • Australia: Full coverage insurance, bike insured for value of $6,900 Aus. My yearly premium is $290.
  • Norfolk UK: £94 Sterling ($190 Cdn) Fully Comprehensive including coverage for mainland Europe.
  • Pennsylvania: Holy crap! I pay $35 a month absolute full coverage plus accessory coverage including gear.
  • Montreal: I'm paying $215 in Montreal, capital of car theft and fender benders. Go somewhere else.
  • Toronto: I'm 50 years old. I have a clean license and driving record. My insurance went from $1875 a year to $2985 a year.
  • New Jersey: I have a horrible driving record. No reported accidents, but plenty of tickets over the years and a few felony speeding (with 1 evading) and I pay pennies compared to you guys.
  • New Jersey: Mine's $264 a year and I'm 35 years old.
  • UK: I have a multi bike policy insuring 3 bikes, all fully comprehensive with European breakdown recovery for £300. ($610 Cdn or about $203 a bike.)
  • Kansas: I'm 20 years old and my ZX12 costs me $35 a month for full coverage through State Farm. They're screwing you good.
  • Alberta: I just paid my insurance 2 weeks ago for my ZX12R and my 2009 GSXR 750. It was $585 for both. (or about $293 per bike)
As you can see, the absolute highest rate in any other jurisdiction is $340 a year, and this was for a guy who wrote off an R1. ($35 a month would be higher if you insured for a full year, but of course anyone who had this option would only insure for the length of the riding season or about seven months.) The bottom line is that Ontario residents are paying between 7 and 20 times as much as any other area, and this includes Quebec and Alberta.

This problem is not going to be solved by shopping around for lower rates. To use a somewhat crude metaphor, shopping for motorcycle insurance in Ontario is nothing more than looking for the person who is going to screw you with the smallest dick. This is only going to be resolved politically. Everyone on this forum should be writing a letter to their MPP. (Provincial MP, not Federal) I have already done this.

Beyond this we need to start organizing, so that next election we can present a united front to the politicians. There are 211,000 motorcycles registered in Ontario. If we can tell the politicians that 211,000 votes will be going to the other party unless they fix motorcycle insurance, they will listen. We might not comprise a large number of people compared to the total number of voters, but our numbers are more than enough to swing a dozen close ridings. This is all that is needed to turn a first place finish into second, or second into first. Believe me, the politicians know this. They key is to present a united front, and make it clear that 211,000 votes will be going to whoever can best clean up the mess that is Ontario motorcycle insurance.
 
Tons of discussion on this already, you're preaching to the choir.

Comparing dollars and cents to other countries / jurisdictions is seldom fair when you consider that some of those quotes are for pitiful amounts of insurance that would leave you living under a bridge somewhere if you were to ever get sued. They look great on the internet but even our *minimum* standards here provide stellar liability and coverage amounts in comparison when you get into the nuts and bolts of coverages. Being able to blurt out a cheap dollar figure on the Internet doesn't explain that.

Am I suggesting that our insurance system here in Ontario isn't overpriced and somewhat broken still? Hell no, but you need to look at both sides of the fence.

As for trying to make it an election issue, good luck – there are a hell of a lot more car drivers in the province of Ontario then there are the measly number of motorcycle drivers in comparison, and if they can't all agree that the earth is round and provide a united front on the issue so far as elections (remember, the Liberals were voted back in despite most of these issues only getting worse under their leadership!), good luck getting motorcyclists noticed.
 
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I really think it is time we organized all different riders groups and marched to the parliament at Queens park.

Ontario has a law which allows the market to charge what they claim they are spending and must be covered off by motorcycle endorsements ( policies) only.

Others may be able to verify, but a doubling of a cruiser price ( for example) means everyone is now getting screwed evenly.

We are one of the largest groups( forums) and we need to organize to get bike insurance cost blended back with all the other type of vehicular insurance offered in ontario.

I will gladly ride to rally, support a petition, whatever is necessary... I hate to say it but the loudest ( most vocal) group is the one the will get heard

Get a thousand bikes weekly at queens park for the summer and see if the issue gets some media coverage!


BB
 
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Old and Slow said:
I just got a call from my State Farm agent informing me that the insurance on my 1998 ZX9-R will be doubling next year. The new cost will be just under $2300 a year. By the way, I am over 60 years old, with no at fault accidents since I was 18 and the last ticket I had was some time in the late seventies. I live in a rural (i.e. low risk) area. I posted this information on a Kawasaki ZX12-R forum and asked members in other jurisdictions what they pay for insurance. Here is a sampling of the responses. Read it and weep:


  • San Francisco: You would literally be paying between 10-20 dollars a month here... But wow... Its like a 2500 percent increase in price compared to our rates.
  • Minnesota: Dude that is absolutely insane rates. I pay $75 a year to insure my 12R.
  • Australia: I pay $340 a year and I have had one at fault accident where I wrote off an R1. You are being ripped off.
  • Australia: Full coverage insurance, bike insured for value of $6,900 Aus. My yearly premium is $290.
  • Norfolk UK: £94 Sterling ($190 Cdn) Fully Comprehensive including coverage for mainland Europe.
  • Pennsylvania: Holy crap! I pay $35 a month absolute full coverage plus accessory coverage including gear.
  • Montreal: I'm paying $215 in Montreal, capital of car theft and fender benders. Go somewhere else.
  • Toronto: I'm 50 years old. I have a clean license and driving record. My insurance went from $1875 a year to $2985 a year.
  • New Jersey: I have a horrible driving record. No reported accidents, but plenty of tickets over the years and a few felony speeding (with 1 evading) and I pay pennies compared to you guys.
  • New Jersey: Mine's $264 a year and I'm 35 years old.
  • UK: I have a multi bike policy insuring 3 bikes, all fully comprehensive with European breakdown recovery for £300. ($610 Cdn or about $203 a bike.)
  • Kansas: I'm 20 years old and my ZX12 costs me $35 a month for full coverage through State Farm. They're screwing you good.
  • Alberta: I just paid my insurance 2 weeks ago for my ZX12R and my 2009 GSXR 750. It was $585 for both. (or about $293 per bike)
As you can see, the absolute highest rate in any other jurisdiction is $340 a year, and this was for a guy who wrote off an R1. ($35 a month would be higher if you insured for a full year, but of course anyone who had this option would only insure for the length of the riding season or about seven months.) The bottom line is that Ontario residents are paying between 7 and 20 times as much as any other area, and this includes Quebec and Alberta.

This problem is not going to be solved by shopping around for lower rates. To use a somewhat crude metaphor, shopping for motorcycle insurance in Ontario is nothing more than looking for the person who is going to screw you with the smallest dick. This is only going to be resolved politically. Everyone on this forum should be writing a letter to their MPP. (Provincial MP, not Federal) I have already done this.

Beyond this we need to start organizing, so that next election we can present a united front to the politicians. There are 211,000 motorcycles registered in Ontario. If we can tell the politicians that 211,000 votes will be going to the other party unless they fix motorcycle insurance, they will listen. We might not comprise a large number of people compared to the total number of voters, but our numbers are more than enough to swing a dozen close ridings. This is all that is needed to turn a first place finish into second, or second into first. Believe me, the politicians know this. They key is to present a united front, and make it clear that 211,000 votes will be going to whoever can best clean up the mess that is Ontario motorcycle insurance.
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Hey Old and Slow. I feel your pain. When I first came to this country from the states they wanted to charge me something like $15,000 for car insurance(broker)..lol. Never heard of that before but whatever. The one thing you should have said is that the votes shouldn't go to someone else, they should abstain. Because that's what they are going to hear more than losing votes.
 
WTF?

Please explain the logic behind a vote not cast somehow having a net benefit?

It was voter complacency (people not bothering to show up, also the "my vote doesn't matter anyways" mentality) that led to our country getting stuck with Harper for all those years. And when they did show up, look what happened...out on his *** in grand style.
 
Yeah remember before the last election when the FIBERALS PROMISED 15% reduction in auto insurance. She LIED to you then do you think she won't ie again??? Good luck with organizing a pee parade with more than 250 riders. Simply won't happen, and the gov't, and more importantly the insurers know it. The insurers contribute hugh amounts to gov't election campaigns, and to lobbyists, and to the sitting gov't in taxes etc. In comparison, we as a group, (even if we were organized), contribute likely less than 1/10th of 1% of that.
 
Get used to it, that 15 percent decrease in insurance we were promised was a "stretch goal" according to Wynne. I, a 21 year old with one at fault, can probably drive a Lamborghini in another province for cheaper than I can ride a motorcycle here.

Hopefully when I'm about 25 I can move out of this province and enjoy life elsewhere.
 
And almost inevitably it'll end up as bsckfiring somehow – some squid will end up pulling a wheelie through the protest or doing a big smoky burnout, or some cruiser guy will scream his open pipes for a few minutes , and they'll get the attention..and the public perception will instantly be "oh look at them all with they're expensive toys complaining about their insurance while I struggle to pay my rent, whaaaahhh".

There's a very real risk of leaving the wrong perception with just one misstep. Look at the last big anti-Uber taxi protest, for example. Few noticed and hardly anybody remembers the hundreds or thousands of good well-meaning taxi drivers that were at the protest peacefully to voice their concerns, however everybody remembers the one crazy guy hanging off the side of an Uber car getting dragged down the road, don't they?

And what was the result? We saw it here in a huge thread. The taxi drivers didn't win the perception game, or their argument, for those who missed the thread.

Professional representation by a single organized and well spoken organization that can get the attention of politicians and the media would be far better off than a bunch of guys on bikes screwing up traffic in some noisy disorganized protest. People will notice and remember that, sure, but it won't help the cause.
 
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Old and Slow said:
[*]San Francisco: You would literally be paying between 10-20 dollars a month here... But wow... Its like a 2500 percent increase in price compared to our rates.
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^^^+1

I pay the equivalent of $31 a month for 4 times the liability I had in Toronto (6 if you count the exchange rate) and 1000 times more coverage for accident benefits. I just put a full year on my credit card as it wasn't even worth setting up direct deposit for $300.

To someone else's point, you have to compare apples to apples. Ontario insurance coverage is crap compared to other jurisdictions considering the price.

I could be legal for $70 a year but that's for $500k liability and $200k accident benefits which doesn't buy a lot of healthcare. Some people do it but to each their own I guess.
 
busabim said:
I really think it is time we organized all different riders groups and marched to the parliament at Queens park.

Ontario has a law which allows the market to charge what they claim they are spending and must be covered off by motorcycle endorsements ( policies) only.

Others may be able to verify, but a doubling of a cruiser price ( for example) means everyone is now getting screwed evenly.

We are one of the largest groups( forums) and we need to organize to get bike insurance cost blended back with all the other type of vehicular insurance offered in ontario.

I will gladly ride to rally, support a petition, whatever is necessary... I hate to say it but the loudest ( most vocal) group is the one the will get heard

Get a thousand bikes weekly at queens park for the summer and see if the issue gets some media coverage!


BB
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Why dont we do the rally during winter, buttnaked. you know, to get attention. Media might cover that too.

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk
 
Nothing will change in Ontario. I wish we could organize into a powerful lobby but there are already a zillion clubs and federations here and the net result is zero true lobbying power. There is an entire economy based on health-care claims in this province and it's going to be more powerful politically than a loosely-organized gaggle of ******-off hobbyists.

I've noted this before, a FP article describes the problem: In 2014 the average bodily injury claim in Ontario was $143,630. In Alberta it was $3,766.

I don't have the stats: What's the average bodily injury claim in San Francisco? Or Kansas?

As long as things like Ontario's BI claims are thirty-eight times those of Alberta we should expect rates to be way, way higher here. After all, if the average BI claim is $143K then that individual would have had to have paid $1000 a year for 143 years for the insurance company to break even.

We all pay for what can only be described as out and out fraud. Not sure if the insurance companies are complicit but the government sure isn't acting very quickly to deal with the issue.
 
There are some good comments here.

PrivatePilot, I agree that an organized demonstration is probably not the best idea. I also agree that this is not a scientific survey. A few of the people who responded may have very minimal coverage, particularly the guy who said his insurance was $75 a year. However, a number of people stated that they had "full coverage" or "full comprehensive". I don't believe that every single jurisdiction that responded has coverage that is vastly inferior to Ontario coverage. I think we are just getting screwed.

Blackfin, I checked that Financial Post article and one of your figures is wrong. The average bodily injury claim in Alberta is $12,785, not $3,766. Nonetheless, your point is still valid. The average Ontario claim is 11 times more than the average Alberta claim, not 38. However, these figures were for all motor vehicle accidents, not just motorcycle accidents. According to the article, car insurance rates in Ontario are about 22% higher than in Alberta. If excessive bodily injury claims were the main reason Ontario motorcycle insurance is more expensive than motorcycle insurance in Alberta, we should expect the same 22% price difference. However, motorcycle insurance in this province is about 700% higher than Alberta. So excessive bodily injury claims are no doubt part of the problem, but there is something else going on here.

There is no doubt that insurance in this province is so ridiculously high that it is going to prevent a significant number of people from purchasing a motorcycle. There is no doubt that the resulting reduction in sales is going to drive some retailers out of business. In fact, I am sure it has already driven some retailers out of business. Ontario has about 15.4 motorcycles registered per 1,000 population. Quebec, with a slightly colder climate, has about 24.3 per 1,000. Alberta, with a much colder climate, has about 29.0 per 1,000. I am willing to bet that this difference is almost entirely due to our rip off insurance rates.

I am actually quite surprised that Ontario motorcycle retailers do not appear to be pursuing this issue. They are the ones who stand to lose the most here (their businesses and livelihoods). They are the ones who should be spearheading any drive to lobby the government.
 
Old and Slow said:
Blackfin, I checked that Financial Post article and one of your figures is wrong. The average bodily injury claim in Alberta is $12,785, not $3,766.
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Ah, oops. Thanks for the clarification. 11.2x then :)

One thing I'm not certain about re bodily injury claims in Ontario at least is the percentage breakdown in the numbers. For example, according to the FP article, there are 9.6-million "motorists" in Ontario and there were 85,000 "accident and bodily injury claimants" in 2014. How many of these 85,000 claimants were accident claimants and how many were bodily injury?

Of the resulting number of bodily injury claimants, how many were passengers or drivers of cars and how many were motorcyclists?

What I'm getting at is that given how safe modern cars really are now, is it possible that we motorcyclists -- 210,000 registered motorcycles & mopeds in a province of 9.6-million motorists (2.2% if we assume one rider per bike) are accounting for a huge percentage of these claims? After all, according to a 1999 NHTSA report, "approximately 80 percent of reported motor- cycle crashes result in injury or death; a comparable figure for automobiles is about 20 percent." Cars have only gotten safer in the last 17 years; motorcycles, perhaps a bit but not nearly as much as cars.

If these figures pan out and we're accounting for not just a high number of bodily injury claims but in fact the vast majority of them then higher rates make sense.

So next question: Why is Ontario such a dangerous place for motorcycles? Is it because of the GTA? Traffic? Drivers? Theft rates there? Bike owners and their behavior? Traffic volumes and congestion?

I'm sure St. Jacobs or Owen Sound isn't drastically more dangerous than, say, Medicine Hat but is anywhere in Canada -- Montreal, perhaps -- comparable to Toronto, Scarborough, Brampton etc? Are riders outside the GTA getting really shafted because we have to effectively subsidize the lousy stats in the GTA?
 
I have done some more research on this issue and I have come to the conclusion that the primary reason motorcycle riders in Ontario pay such rapacious insurance rates is no fault insurance. While all provinces have some form of no fault insurance, the system is administered differently in different provinces. Quebec has a pure no fault system where you are not allowed to sue the other driver. Alberta has a system where no fault pays a small amount of benefits, but you must go after the other driver's insurance company for anything beyond that. Ontario has a mixed system where most benefits come from no fault, but you are still allowed to sue.


So why is insurance so cheap in Quebec? Their cheap insurance is largely an illusion. In Quebec the insurance company only pays for property damage. Personal injuries are paid for by the government. The government recovers this cost by charging massive amounts for license plates. The yearly charge for plates for a “high risk” bike in Quebec is $1306. So their insurance may only be $200 a year, but their total cost to put the bike on the road is more like $1500. Still, this is considerably less than the $5,000 quotes some young riders are getting for sport bike insurance in this province.


How does no fault work? Lets suppose I am riding my bike and some moron in a car makes a left turn directly into my path, causing an accident which seriously injures me. Under the old tort based system the car driver's insurance company would be responsible for my loss of income, physiotherapy, etc. Under a no fault system my own insurance company pays for this. The problem with this system is obvious – motorcycle riders are forced to subsidize other people's stupidity and carelessness. The dumber, more reckless, and more negligent car drivers are, the more our insurance will cost.


When the David Peterson Liberals introduced this system in 1990 they said it would save us money. Twenty six years later, Ontario has the highest auto insurance rates in the country. Motorcycle insurance rates here are probably the highest on the planet. And the Liberals are still in power.


Of course there are other problems with insurance in this province. As Blackfin pointed out, bodily injury claims in Ontario are astronomical. This is probably due in large part to fraud. But rather than working with the police to combat this fraud, the insurance companies just pay the fraudulent claims, then jack our rates up.


Looks like I may have to give up riding a sport bike. Does anyone have a Honda Super Cub to trade for a ZX12-R?
 
I heard some people register their bikes in Alberta where the rates are cheaper. Run them round Ontario with Alberta plates. Is this possible?
 
CanadianHD said:
I heard some people register their bikes in Alberta where the rates are cheaper. Run them round Ontario with Alberta plates. Is this possible?
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Sure, until you need your insurance some day and they immediately terminate your policy because of misrepresentation.
 
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