The Crooks at 407ETR are at it Again

LBV

LBV

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Rates are going up in the new year. :mad: They've complicated things even more now with more Zones and different pricing by Zone depending on time slot.

My drive home cuts through 3 Zones but the main one shows a price increase from $0.6504 /km to $0.7772. That's a rise of 19.5%. Greedy!

Motorcycles get a new class so they go down to $0.6217 for the same zone, a drop of 4.4%.

Rates & Fees | 407 ETR, Express Toll Route

407 ETR, Express Toll Route
www.407etr.com www.407etr.com
 
LBV said:
Motorcycles get a new class so they go down to $0.6217 for the same zone, a drop of 4.4%
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Ah, that was a good laugh. Brightened my day

Good ole Mike Harris and the Common Sense Revolution. What is he up to these days anyway? Living underground nextdoor to McGuinty?
 
Wonder if Doug Ford has asked about buying it back and what that'd cost .... lower the rates and then remove them when it's paid for (like that last part would ever happen).
 
So will there ever be a time where tolls will no longer apply to the 407?
I've only ever used it twice - both times because I got tricked by Google's GPS :mad:

That was an expensive $10 km ride each time lol.
 
LBV said:
Wonder if Doug Ford has asked about buying it back and what that'd cost .... lower the rates and then remove them when it's paid for (like that last part would ever happen).
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In all honesty...if the Ontario gov't bought it back, kept the rates the same I'd be much happier than it going into private hands.

And yes, I understand that the major stakeholder is the CPP (50.01%), Cintra (43.23%), and AtkinsRealis (6.76%).
 
POWERMAN said:
So will there ever be a time where tolls will no longer apply to the 407?
I've only ever used it twice - both times because I got tricked by Google's GPS :mad:

That was an expensive $10 km ride each time lol.
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Not as long as a private consortium owns it.
 
LBV said:
Wonder if Doug Ford has asked about buying it back and what that'd cost .... lower the rates and then remove them when it's paid for (like that last part would ever happen).
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The cost to buy it back approaches infinity. You have the present value of the next 80 years of income which is a really big number. Then you multiply that by a factor to account for the rates being able to rise as fast as you want over the next 80 years. Then you multiply by a "we don't want to sell" factor combined with a monopoly factor (no other road can be built to directly compete with it).
 
nobbie48 said:
The Burlington bridge had tolls until it was paid off. My wife still has a couple of the tokens.
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Given that the price the consortium would want would likely exceed all predicted future revenue, by definition I don't think the 407 could ever be paid off.

Now, if there is an avenue similar to expropriation, there may be a price that works. Since Ontario owns it, I'm not sure you can expropriate a lease. At least in expropriation there might be some negotiation and judicial oversight to keep the price under control. For instance, you can't assume 10% price increases every year for the next 80 years.,Hell, you can't just make up profit over time as expenses would be significant. Hopefully Ontario could find some kind of precedent where income over the next 20 years or so is considered but beyond that it must be excluded from the calc.
 
Remember, the 407 was leased to the private sector for 30 years for the grand sum of $3 billion dollars. Then Harris added a further 69 years for the huge sum of $100 million more. Yes, that's million, not billion.

We talk about government mismanagement, but this 69 year non required extension is possibly the worst financial decision an Ontario government has ever made.

The 30 year lease started in 1999 and would have expired in 2029 if Harris had not effectively given it away for another 69 years. Think about that when you hear above the cost of the 413 and the Bradford Exchange.
 
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GreyGhost said:
Given that the price the consortium would want would likely exceed all predicted future revenue, by definition I don't think the 407 could ever be paid off.

Now, if there is an avenue similar to expropriation, there may be a price that works. Since Ontario owns it, I'm not sure you can expropriate a lease. At least in expropriation there might be some negotiation and judicial oversight to keep the price under control. For instance, you can't assume 10% price increases every year for the next 80 years.,Hell, you can't just make up profit over time as expenses would be significant. Hopefully Ontario could find some kind of precedent where income over the next 20 years or so is considered but beyond that it must be excluded from the calc.
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Why can't the consortium legally just keep on hosing? The contracts were signed. Done deal. (I don't like it)

How is that substantially different from a new home buyer wanting out of a signed contract. You signed and it's a deal.

The only thing that could change it would be a buyers revolt / boycott. What if we put in bike lanes to cork the thing?

Another way would be the feds to put in a trans-Canada route in parallel. I don't think the feds signed the non competition agreement. So how many billion dollars and how long. If the Eglinton Cross town is any measure of build time the existing lease could expire before the new road was built.

When you buy a business you get the assets and goodwill. The goodwill here is the profit from being able to jack prices at will. Name another business with that ROI capability.

We're screwed until 2098. The only light in the window is CPP is benefiting.

Do we have access to the accounting?
 
GreyGhost said:
Given that the price the consortium would want would likely exceed all predicted future revenue, by definition I don't think the 407 could ever be paid off.

Now, if there is an avenue similar to expropriation, there may be a price that works. Since Ontario owns it, I'm not sure you can expropriate a lease. At least in expropriation there might be some negotiation and judicial oversight to keep the price under control. For instance, you can't assume 10% price increases every year for the next 80 years.,
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You can cancel a lease, but be prepared to fight and probably lose a lawsuit.

GreyGhost said:
Hell, you can't just make up profit over time as expenses would be significant. Hopefully Ontario could find some kind of precedent where income over the next 20 years or so is considered but beyond that it must be excluded from the calc.
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Highly unlikely. Expropriation is not an option, but aside from that the 407 ETR crooks can raise prices to whatever level they want. The Harris government stated there were provisions in the contract to protect consumers, but McGinty found out the hard way that was a total lie.

The other catch here is that the 407 uses a number of related private companies to do maintenance and other work on the highway, but at what cost. It is very simple to overbill for work done on the 407 to siphon funds off to other companies in the form of revenue for them, but a cost for the 407. There is no visibility to these other privately held companies and their profits are confidential. This can keep net profit down, on paper, for the 407, perhaps to demonstrate they're not ripping us off.
 
Expropriate the property beside it and build a parallel highway to keep prices down.

Or get Just Stop Oil to keep protesting on it?
 
Baggsy said:
Expropriate the property beside it and build a parallel highway to keep prices down.
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Expropriate residential subdivisions in markham/brampton/vaughan? That would be the most expensive expropriation in the history of Canada.

Now, the idea about a federal highway on the strip of grass that's already there and owned by the province is intriguing. Tying in all the ramps would suck.
 
GreyGhost said:
Expropriate residential subdivisions in markham/brampton/vaughan? That would be the most expensive expropriation in the history of Canada.

Now, the idea about a federal highway on the strip of grass that's already there and owned by the province is intriguing. Tying in all the ramps would suck.
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It would be cheaper than buying out the 407.

The BTFA act allows for expedited expropriation for the benefit of public projects serving the greater good.

BTFA is literally the LAST resort if you can’t get an amicable agreement. 12-18 months IF the property owner doesn’t fight the expropriation.
 
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