Star article: When is a fatal crash careless driving vs criminal? | GTAMotorcycle.com

Star article: When is a fatal crash careless driving vs criminal?

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A interesting read in today's Wheels section.

Sam Birtwistle could feel the anger growing inside when he read a story about a fatal motorcycle accident near Barrie in the local paper.

The 49-year-old high school gym teacher in Alliston had no direct connection, but was outraged that the pickup-truck driver accused of pulling a u-turn in front of the motorcyclist was only charged with careless driving under the Highway Traffic Act.

“I just saw that the charge didn’t seem to capture the gravity of the results. I mean this guy died and I thought criminal negligence causing death would have met the burden (of proof),” he said, adding that he also rides a motorcycle.

Birtwistle, who contacted Wheels to convey his exasperation, is not alone in failing to understand how police — and, down the line, a Crown attorney — conclude that one fatal accident warrants a fine and another a criminal charge.

“Careless driving? It’s a glorified traffic ticket. It’s not a criminal offence,” said the Barrie resident. “I just thought, if somebody killed me, that my life would be worth more than six (demerit) points and couple of hundred dollars fine.”

Even more emotional are the family members of those killed in fatal accidents.
According to Ministry of Transportation’s most recent statistics, there were 564 people killed in collisions in Ontario in 2009, down substantially from the previous two years.
That same year, there were just two convictions for Criminal Negligence Causing Death and 13 convictions for Dangerous Driving Causing Death — although it is unknown whether those convictions related to 2009 accidents or previous years.
Police and lawyers say many things are considered when determining charges from a fatal accident; especially whether the accused motorist did something so flagrantly wrong that he or she should have known their actions could jeopardize life. Although that occasionally happens, it is rare.

“Just because there is a fatality doesn’t necessarily mean it is a criminal offence … it’s how the collision occurred and what led up to it,” explained Sgt. Scott Parker, of the OPP’s traffic operations division.

Parker said criminal negligence causing death is seldom charged in a motor vehicle accident. The more common charge is dangerous driving causing death, but even that depends on the facts of the case.

“You got to prove the … guilty mind along with the guilty act,” he said.

Another veteran provincial police officer, who asked not to be named, said negligence means “you have done something so stupid you had to have known it might kill somebody, whereas careless is not to have due care and attention or consideration for other people using the highway.”

Parker said it is difficult for grieving families to understand how police arrive at a charge, so investigating officers and the Crown attorney often sit down with them and walk them through the process.

Former veteran Crown attorney Peter Speyer, now in private practice in Cambridge, said the results of a crash should not necessarily determine the charge.

“In terms of driving offence, the consequences shouldn’t drive the charge. The nature and the quality of the driving are what’s at stake,” he said. “There are lot of circumstances that need to be considered by the police and the Crown … in respect to which charge to lay.”
Toronto lawyer Clayton Ruby said a charge of dangerous driving requires a marked departure from the standard of care expected from an ordinary motorist.

“The ‘proof beyond a reasonable doubt’ standard means the departure must be evident, because real proof is needed, and the onus of proof is on the Crown,” he said.
Criminal negligence causing death is even more serious, he said, requiring proof that “the driver was morally blameworthy to a higher degree, namely, a reckless disregard for the safety and lives of others.”

So although making a u-turn in traffic is a departure from the standard of care, Ruby said “it is not criminal negligence or dangerous driving unless it is marked departure or, respectively, a risk he averted to.

“But, not withstanding that, it is almost always charged and they worry about the proof later — and they make a deal later sometimes.”

Ruby acknowledges there have been times when he has wondered why criminal charges weren’t laid, when the circumstances seem to warrant it.

He suggested a victim’s family may want to consider a civil suit.
“Obviously at fault is more than enough for a civil suit … it is a place for them to go, rather than criminal court, because it is a lower standard of proof to begin with.”


http://www.wheels.ca/news/when-is-a-fatal-crash-just-careless-driving-and-when-is-it-criminal/
 
If stupidity, negligence, ignorance, is a valid reason for taking someone's life - so should be retribution.
 
Careless is more than the charge the lady that killed one of my college classmates got. She got a $90 fine for improper turn or something like that.
 
If stupidity, negligence, ignorance, is a valid reason for taking someone's life - so should be retribution.

Well said.

Careless is more than the charge the lady that killed one of my college classmates got. She got a $90 fine for improper turn or something like that.

Probably a ****ing plea bargain.

The system is obviously inherently flawed.
 
All i know is, if i wanna take someone out, i'll run em over....and take the slap on the wrist...

****ing pathetic.
 
What is it you want the guy charged with?
Crim neg? Dangerous? Murder? Unsafe U turn?

Excrement occurs.
 
It sucks but the fact is that all the guy intended to do was make an illegal U-turn. It was the bikers bad luck that he was in the wrong spot. It really really sucks but that is how the law sees it.
If two or ten people do the same thing they get the same punishment. If one kills someone the lost life results in a fine of a few bucks the same as the rest. It really sucks but should we charge everyone that runs as top or does a bad leftie with dangerous driving, a criminal charge? How do you prove intent? Yes it really really sucks.
 
It is part of your responsibilities as a driver to ensure that any action that you do, is not going to cause a collision.

Many jurisdictions in the USA have implemented minimum penalties in cases where a violation of another driver's right of way results in a fatality or serious injury. I think that is as it should be (except that most of the minimum penalties are still nowhere near enough).

It's your responsibility as a driver to make sure that you DON'T violate someone else's right of way. Period.

If it were up to me, I'd revoke that stupid "stunt driving" section but replace it with HEAVY penalities for right-of-way violations that result in collisions - ramping up if injury is involved, ramping up more if a fatality is involved. Revocation of driver's license in these situations shouldn't mean paying 150 bucks (or whatever it is) to get it back ... it should mean STARTING OVER. Read the driver's handbook, go through training, re-test.
 
It is part of your responsibilities as a driver to ensure that any action that you do, is not going to cause a collision.

Many jurisdictions in the USA have implemented minimum penalties in cases where a violation of another driver's right of way results in a fatality or serious injury. I think that is as it should be (except that most of the minimum penalties are still nowhere near enough).

It's your responsibility as a driver to make sure that you DON'T violate someone else's right of way. Period.

If it were up to me, I'd revoke that stupid "stunt driving" section but replace it with HEAVY penalities for right-of-way violations that result in collisions - ramping up if injury is involved, ramping up more if a fatality is involved. Revocation of driver's license in these situations shouldn't mean paying 150 bucks (or whatever it is) to get it back ... it should mean STARTING OVER. Read the driver's handbook, go through training, re-test.

Agreed. I wish someone would have the stones to set precedent regarding this. Violating someone's right of way or making a careless error on the road is obviously dangerous, and ALWAYS has the risk of injuring or killing someone else. We need a so worded "Vehicular Manslaughter" charge. By definition it applies to any scenario where you cause death. Negligence has much too high of a burden of proof to be an acceptable simile.

I remember a couple years ago a family friend in the UK was killed by a driver who hit him on his bicycle. The driver was given a 5 year (later reduced to one year) ban from driving, the fine and 100 hours of community service. Even that is more just than a $90 fine.
 
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It is part of your responsibilities as a driver to ensure that any action that you do, is not going to cause a collision.

Many jurisdictions in the USA have implemented minimum penalties in cases where a violation of another driver's right of way results in a fatality or serious injury. I think that is as it should be (except that most of the minimum penalties are still nowhere near enough).

It's your responsibility as a driver to make sure that you DON'T violate someone else's right of way. Period.

If it were up to me, I'd revoke that stupid "stunt driving" section but replace it with HEAVY penalities for right-of-way violations that result in collisions - ramping up if injury is involved, ramping up more if a fatality is involved. Revocation of driver's license in these situations shouldn't mean paying 150 bucks (or whatever it is) to get it back ... it should mean STARTING OVER. Read the driver's handbook, go through training, re-test.

I'm with you there. The logic around traffic rules is supposed to be about safety, not just yourself but others as well. Follow these rules, presume others are following the same rules, you should be safe barring unforeseen catastrophes or mechanical failures.

I don't know how many times when I was young and didn't give a ****, being pulled over by cops, sometimes getting a ticket, sometimes not, but always chided that I had to play by the rules or I could seriously hurt someone (or myself).

So here we are. So what if I did seriously hurt someone? Same outcome for me, someone else dead. I didn't know them so what should I care?
PS, I do care.
 
I'm with you there. The logic around traffic rules is supposed to be about safety, not just yourself but others as well. Follow these rules, presume others are following the same rules, you should be safe barring unforeseen catastrophes or mechanical failures.

I don't know how many times when I was young and didn't give a ****, being pulled over by cops, sometimes getting a ticket, sometimes not, but always chided that I had to play by the rules or I could seriously hurt someone (or myself).

So here we are. So what if I did seriously hurt someone? Same outcome for me, someone else dead. I didn't know them so what should I care?
PS, I do care.

I used to have the same attitude...which is why by the by I don't complain about insurance rates for teens/early 20s guys. 18 years old with an Evo wasn't a good idea...probably shoulda listened to everyone that told me that.

Only thing I will say is that with experience comes complacency.
 
It is part of your responsibilities as a driver to ensure that any action that you do, is not going to cause a collision.

Many jurisdictions in the USA have implemented minimum penalties in cases where a violation of another driver's right of way results in a fatality or serious injury. I think that is as it should be (except that most of the minimum penalties are still nowhere near enough).

It's your responsibility as a driver to make sure that you DON'T violate someone else's right of way. Period.

If it were up to me, I'd revoke that stupid "stunt driving" section but replace it with HEAVY penalities for right-of-way violations that result in collisions - ramping up if injury is involved, ramping up more if a fatality is involved. Revocation of driver's license in these situations shouldn't mean paying 150 bucks (or whatever it is) to get it back ... it should mean STARTING OVER. Read the driver's handbook, go through training, re-test.

Yes sir!

Using the words of the article, to me not having "due care and attention or consideration for other people using the highway.” (careless charge) IS THE SAME THING AS doing "something so stupid you had to have known it might kill somebody" (criminal negligence)

There is no distinction to me. Cars are weapons and should be regulated as such.
 
It is part of your responsibilities as a driver to ensure that any action that you do, is not going to cause a collision.

Many jurisdictions in the USA have implemented minimum penalties in cases where a violation of another driver's right of way results in a fatality or serious injury. I think that is as it should be (except that most of the minimum penalties are still nowhere near enough).

It's your responsibility as a driver to make sure that you DON'T violate someone else's right of way. Period.

If it were up to me, I'd revoke that stupid "stunt driving" section but replace it with HEAVY penalities for right-of-way violations that result in collisions - ramping up if injury is involved, ramping up more if a fatality is involved. Revocation of driver's license in these situations shouldn't mean paying 150 bucks (or whatever it is) to get it back ... it should mean STARTING OVER. Read the driver's handbook, go through training, re-test.

This^.
 
There is no "Dangerous operation of a vehicle causing grievous bodily harm or death" charge in Ontario? You can get 7yrs prison time for that in Aus, gets bumped up to 14yrs if intoxicated or speeding. If you do something dangerous/stupid on the road and kill someone you should be punished imo.
 
Most of us have had at-fault fender benders. What if one of those, through bad luck, killed someone?

Would you think it's OK that you go to jail, if it was you that made the mistake?

So it's got to be more than whether or not someone died, (although that should matter I agree).
 
Most of us have had at-fault fender benders. What if one of those, through bad luck, killed someone?

Would you think it's OK that you go to jail, if it was you that made the mistake?

So it's got to be more than whether or not someone died, (although that should matter I agree).

A fender bender is one thing, poor road conditions, weather, girl in bikini... but driving dangerously ie: making a U turn in front of another vehicle, weaving through traffic causing an accident, speeding and running into another vehicle or running another vehicle off the road, running a red light to turn right while a pedestrian is crossing should net you some jail time if that person dies.

People just dont seem to pay attention to anything around them while driving, they are in their own little world, and no one wants to take responsibility when the **** hits the fan. Driving is a privilege and should be taken seriously.
 
Most of us have had at-fault fender benders. What if one of those, through bad luck, killed someone?

Would you think it's OK that you go to jail, if it was you that made the mistake?

So it's got to be more than whether or not someone died, (although that should matter I agree).

If I do something stupid that I know damn well is stupid, I'd rather be duly punished for it than live my life knowing I killed someone and all I had to do was pay a set fine.
 
It is part of your responsibilities as a driver to ensure that any action that you do, is not going to cause a collision.

Many jurisdictions in the USA have implemented minimum penalties in cases where a violation of another driver's right of way results in a fatality or serious injury. I think that is as it should be (except that most of the minimum penalties are still nowhere near enough).

It's your responsibility as a driver to make sure that you DON'T violate someone else's right of way. Period.

If it were up to me, I'd revoke that stupid "stunt driving" section but replace it with HEAVY penalities for right-of-way violations that result in collisions - ramping up if injury is involved, ramping up more if a fatality is involved. Revocation of driver's license in these situations shouldn't mean paying 150 bucks (or whatever it is) to get it back ... it should mean STARTING OVER. Read the driver's handbook, go through training, re-test.

Nailed it.

Only thing I will say is that with experience comes complacency.

Unless some of that experience wasn't all puppies and rainbows... I had a roll over at 18 (weather conditions and reacting to another drivers mistake), and through work I've seen some pretty nasty vehicle accidents... Sort of smartens you up on the road.
 
If I do something stupid that I know damn well is stupid, I'd rather be duly punished for it than live my life knowing I killed someone and all I had to do was pay a set fine.

My earlier post states what I understand is the reality, that you only get charged with making an unsafe turn whether the act results in a collision or not. In other juridictions the charges are upped if there is damage, injury death etc.

The question is "Do people even consider the consequences when they make these bad decisions?"

Would any driver think to him/her self, If I make this illegal turn and kill someone I'm going to jail? I really doubt it.

Is there anyone on this forum (Or planet) that never speeds, always comes to a 100% stop, never tailgates regardless of congestion, always signals, etc? The person that killed the biker just used a different arrow out of the quiver.

Macs makes a very responsible statement indicating that he is a resposible person that contributes greatly to society. If he blundered and killed someone would society be better off if he spent the rest of his life in jail?

The taxpayer pays for his keep. Possibly his family goes on welfare. The kids without his guidance become trash. His technical skills are wasted.

Would we not be better served if he was allowed to keep doing his job, contributing to society, raising good kids (Including telling them where he went wrong)? Volunteering his lesson to others etc.

It all goes back to intent and attitude. Both can be difficult to verify.
 
Is there anyone on this forum (Or planet) that never speeds, always comes to a 100% stop, never tailgates regardless of congestion, always signals, etc? The person that killed the biker just used a different arrow out of the quiver.

In my younger days, speed, yes. The others on that list NEVER and now days don't speed either. Just because others do it doesnt mean you have to break the law too.
 

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