Speeding 135 in a 100 Trial option selected.

[toddb]

OPP caught me doing 135km/hr in a 100 on Hwy 403 Westbound back in late December.
I tried to ask for a break from the officer, however he was upset because my kids (ages 13 and 19) were in the car and I was speeding.
I right away went to the court house Filed the Ticket and selected the Trial option ( Number 3)

Feb.01 I received my "Notice of Trial" scheduled for October 15 2012 here in Mississauga.

Mar. 01 I submitted a Disclosure request asking for: The Officer's notes, Copies of both sides of his Ticket, Info about the Speed Measuring Device (Make/Model/Serial No./Calibration and Repair history) Copies of the manufactures Specifications for Testing and Calibration, Copy of the Officer's Training Record or Cert's specific to using this device, Officer's log for testing it on the offence day, Copy of the Officer's Call sheet from the day of the allegation and any other documents that the Crown Witness may rely on at the trial.

Mar. 20 I received a package from the City of Mississauga although not 100% of everything I asked for but containing: a copy of my disclosure request, copy of the Officer's notes, copy of the Officer's back of the Ticket, copy of the Calibration/testing report of the unit before and after his shift and a copy of the Instruction manual for the Laser Speed measuring device.


Now here's my case:
· I have a very clean driving record, haven't had a ticket in 19 years.
· The car I was driving was a 2012, brand new in 2011 when I was stopped, so I'm not all that use to it (plus the car is driven primarily by my wife).
· I found later that when setting the Cruise Control the Speedometer is not reading correctly, so I took it back to the dealer to get it recalibrated, here's what they documented on the Work Order: "Customer states indicated speed on the speedo is lower than the actual speed - Problem found incorrect tire size contributing to incorrect speedo reading"

Question: Should I continue to ask for the remaining Disclosure items, hoping for nothing in return, so I can a) have my court date moved out later (lack of full disclosure) then b) have it stayed or dismissed on an 11b or possible "No-Show" of the officer on the subsequent date.
Or should I maybe do the plea bargain thing with the Crown because it seems this Officer is thorough and efficient with my demands so far, thinking he's on a mission not to let me off.

Do I have enough with the tire issue and my clean record to convince a Crown or maybe a Justice of the Peace?

 

[turbodish]

- Prior driving record is not relevant to whether you were speeding or not.
- You not being used to the vehicle is not relevant. If anything, driving at that speed in a vehicle that you are not used to might be considered as lack of prudence on your part, and the presence of your kids in the car only adds to perceived lack of prudence.
- A size difference or two in tire size might account for 5 kmph or so difference in indicated vs actual speed. Now, how do you explain the other 30 kmph over the limit?

 

[DOHC1]

Though they probably won't withdraw the charge based on it, the invoice from the dealership might help you catch a break on it depending on the mood of the prosecuter.. I'm sure the experts will chime in here on wether or not its a valid defence in court.

 

[toddb]

- Prior driving record is not relevant to whether you were speeding or not.

just thought it would carry some weight?

- You not being used to the vehicle is not relevant. If anything, driving at that speed in a vehicle that you are not used to might be considered as lack of prudence on your part, and the presence of your kids in the car only adds to perceived lack of prudence.

Yes Good one! well noted!

- A size difference or two in tire size might account for 5 kmph or so difference in indicated vs actual speed. Now, how do you explain the other 30 kmph over the limit?

You and I know that, the Dealer's W/O is pretty vague, but do you think a Crown or JP will know the mathematics of a tire size difference?

 

[toddb]

How about the Lack of Full disclosure thing?
Should I keep submitting requests to the Prosecuter, knowing what I got so far is about all I'm going to get, then at trial, state I can't defend myself or answer my charge because of lack of FULL disclosure?

Is it normal to receive this much information and documents from the Officer so quickly?

 

[turbodish]

just thought it would carry some weight?

It might help the Crown decide whether or not to offer you a plea bargain, and the generosity of that plea bargain, in exchange for your guilty plea. As far as guilt or innocence when it goes to trial, it means nothing.

You and I know that, the Dealer's W/O is pretty vague, but do you think a Crown or JP will know the mathematics of a tire size difference?

Do you think that you are going to be the first to try this kind of defence?

 

[toddb]

It might help the Crown decide whether or not to offer you a plea bargain, and the generosity of that plea bargain, in exchange for your guilty plea. As far as guilt or innocence when it goes to trial, it means nothing.

Time will tell I guess By the way I appreciate your comments and imput - Thanks!

A size difference or two in tire size might account for 5 kmph or so difference in indicated vs actual speed. Now, how do you explain the other 30 kmph over the limit?

Actually what I found is at 65km/hr it was out by 5km/hr, I'm not sure what it will be at 100km/hr (I installed the proper size right away) and if the norm on the 400 series Hwy is around 120....
but will it hold any water in court probably not because 120 is breaking the law, even though generally the Police sometimes turn a blind eye to it.

 

[OpenGambit]

As stated many times before.

Due dilgence is not a defense to simple speeding under the HTA.

even if your speedo read 100 when you were going 135, you are still guilty.

 

[toddb]

As stated many times before.

Due dilgence is not a defense to simple speeding under the HTA.

even if your speedo read 100 when you were going 135, you are still guilty.

I don't anticipate the charges be dropped that easily, however with the Speedo issue (confirmed and documented with the Dealer) and my somewhat clean record, I'm hoping maybe it will help with the Plea Bargin.

 

[matt123]

Heed my advice and find everything out for yourself.You just have to know where to look
Been there under the same circumstance only I was fixing my dash and the speedo was it missing.As it turns out you don't even have to have a speedo the only requirement is an odometer.
Speeding is a liability offense so you have to basically prove you were not speeding or or show that the officer has a less than accurate recall of the events by making him stumble under questioning.Not trying to tell you what to do but unless the officer doesn't show i think you will have a hard time fighting this because in order to make him foul up you have to ask question such as what the weather was like,and how many people were in the car.I for one would not want to go there because speeding with minors in the car will be frond upon greatly if it comes up

On a good note you have a better than average driving record and the offense is still a minor which is all you insurance will see,not the how far over the limit you were and not the accumulation of points.Fill in the section and see the prosecutor before the trial and you may get a reduced fine.Most people will tell you to fight every ticket as one minor is not a big deal if insurance picks up on it but the next one will cast you.Also if you have accident forgiveness you have basically already paid for the fist minnor you get.
One other thing to think about if you can time the trial or you plea bargain so the conviction falls shortly after you insurance renewal you can shave a year off the penalties if it comes down to it.
I have 23yrs of ticket free driving and was busted for 24 over march 2011 car insurance renewed the following June and i took the prosecutors deal in July so i got a year off any penalties from car insurance. Because of my good record they still haven't ran my file so Im two years into it and they did not catch me on the bike insurance renwal this past march.Insurance tends to run high risk drivers kid,dui's before low risk drivers as it costs them money.
I found all this out from my broker and a paralegal who told me it was not worth the $400 to pay him to fight it.Go to Ticket Combat and read up on the subject then the OHTA where you can ask paralegals and officers questions pertaining to you ticket and use the search function as there are plenty of answered 35 over threads.You may not be as bad off as you think and good luck
http://www.ticketcombat.com/
http://www.ontariohighwaytrafficact.com/

 

[toysareforboys]

Just so you're absolutely clear how a speeding ticket works:

The charge is speeding, the "35kph over" is just the "fine". Unless you can absolutely prove without a doubt that you were going 99kph than nothing you can say/do/speedo inaccuracy, etc. Nothing will help you get out of the ticket.

The only thing the speedo inaccuracy will help you do is get it down to 130 instead of 135, but with the increased fines because you took it to court, you won't be saving any money.

My advice, go to court, hope the officer doesn't show. If he shows up then go to the ticket payment window and pay the original ticket, that way you'll keep the fine down to what's written on the ticket.

You're lucky you got the user manual, I asked for it and they didn't provide it (said they don't have to! lol). Unless the judge feels that a piece of the disclosure you didn't get could possibly prove you were doing 99kph not 101kph or over, than he won't give you an adjournment or dismissal, he'll make you have your trial right then and there.

Good luck and let us know how you make out.

-Jamie M.

 

[DOHC1]

Just so you're absolutely clear how a speeding ticket works:

The charge is speeding, the "35kph over" is just the "fine". Unless you can absolutely prove without a doubt that you were going 99kph than nothing you can say/do/speedo inaccuracy, etc. Nothing will help you get out of the ticket.

The only thing the speedo inaccuracy will help you do is get it down to 130 instead of 135, but with the increased fines because you took it to court, you won't be saving any money.

My advice, go to court, hope the officer doesn't show. If he shows up then go to the ticket payment window and pay the original ticket, that way you'll keep the fine down to what's written on the ticket.

You're lucky you got the user manual, I asked for it and they didn't provide it (said they don't have to! lol). Unless the judge feels that a piece of the disclosure you didn't get could possibly prove you were doing 99kph not 101kph or over, than he won't give you an adjournment or dismissal, he'll make you have your trial right then and there.

Good luck and let us know how you make out.

-Jamie M.

If I saw the cop showed up, I would simply ask if the prosecuter can do anything about the fine/points because money is tight/bring up clean driving record.. they'll usually lower something. If the cop shows up youre gonna be convicted either way so might as well try to get it reduced while youre there.

If the cop doesnt show, just stand there with a big smile on your face till the judge calls your name

 

[Stephen W.]

Times sure have changed. I received my one and only speeding ticket on a motorcycle back in the summer of 1983. Because of the speed, (155 in an 80) I was obliged to appear in court. When the day came the officer was a no show and the prosecutor didn't have any notes on the case. I thought I was going to get off scott free but, I was wrong.
When the charge was read the J.P. said "GUILTY!" I asked how he could make such a ruling without the officer present or hearing either side. He said, "Son, I can reschedule this for another day when the officer is free and find you guilty then or, make things simple as I just did. The difference being, today you've only lost one day's pay and traveling costs. If I reschedule you lose double that amount plus, the prosecutor may want to add, careless and reckless endangerment. Your choice." I said thank you sir and asked for time to pay which he gave me.

 

[GateKeeper]

I can just say one thing, you got a ticket, your Insurance is going to screw you and jack up your rates, plain and simple, if they find it in the 3 years it's on your record, if they don't you will get lucky, if they do, then your rates will go up, unless you have one freebie....

I got a ticket almost now 3 years ago, it will expire middle of May, my renewal just came in, guess what, the minor conviction is on my record and my rates went up, spoke to my broker, he told me well they finally found it, my number came up to do a check, but I shouldn't worry about it too much, since the ticket expires in May, the rates will go back down......

no matter what you do, as long as their is a ticket on your record the Insurance companies will use it against you, period, only way for you to not feel the effect is if the ticket is thrown out and no conviction at all, even if you pay the minimum, no points, it will go against you if and when the Insurance company gets wind of it...........

As I have said, they are a bunch of extortionists, plain and simple.......

 

[matt123]

I have to respectfully disagree regarding all of them,I know more than a few people with Jevco who have had no on increase for thier one and only minor.My broker and the paralegal told me not to worry.It's the second minor that will raise your rate with Jevco.The paralegal advised me to talk to my broker because some companies wont raise the rate and thought Jevco was one of them.The brokers exact words were "dont waste your money but don't get another ticket either".Then couple friends informed me that there minors had no effect on there insurance with Jevco either.Also if you have accident forgiveness the first minor will usually side as well but then you lose the accident forgiveness rating
A quick poll at the OHTA site netted a 5 to 10% increase if any at all across a variety of companies.Same at Ticket Combat.You can go see for yourself

 

[toddb]

but with the increased fines because you took it to court, you won't be saving any money.

Not sure what you mean by increased fines?

 

[toddb]

well they finally found it, my number came up to do a check,

is it a random process they do on occasion?
Are they notified by the Ministry in any way once the conviction is processed? As long as no changes are made to the Policy and one lays low for at least 3 years is there a good chance of it not being discovered and rates affected?
How come when requesting a quote from Insurance companies they ask for your record going back 6 years?

 

[toysareforboys]

Not sure what you mean by increased fines?

They have a separate "fine table" they use when you are found guilty. The prosecutor will have the list with them and can let you how how much more a "guilty" ticket will cost ya. I'll say it's 20% more but don't know the exact value.

-Jamie M.

 

[Drake76]

You have caused yourself a lot of work. Going for the crazy disclosure route will get the crown to dig in their heels. Playing the "I am sorry I made a mistake I have a good history" route would have likely had a significantly reduced fine and no other work or stress on your part.

If your car manufacturer caused you to speed based on faulty instrumentation, that would be a civil liability lawsuit that you could pursue with the manufacturer, but we are talking about a couple hundred bucks.

Seems like you are doing a lot of work here, not sure the payoff is worth it...

 

[PLau]

You have caused yourself a lot of work. Going for the crazy disclosure route will get the crown to dig in their heels. Playing the "I am sorry I made a mistake I have a good history" route would have likely had a significantly reduced fine and no other work or stress on your part.

If your car manufacturer caused you to speed based on faulty instrumentation, that would be a civil liability lawsuit that you could pursue with the manufacturer, but we are talking about a couple hundred bucks.

Seems like you are doing a lot of work here, not sure the payoff is worth it...

I think the goal is to get the ticket tossed out although the chances of that are small.