solar/wind for the bare necessities?

CruisnGrrl

CruisnGrrl

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I've been looking at solar and wind as ways to have back up power for my water heater and water pump...

the problem with a generator is if I don't have power odds are the gas station doesn't have power either + you can not store fuel indefinitely.

so I've been looking at having a bank of batteries, and inverter and solar/wind power generation.

question is how many batteries (12V) will i need and how much solar/wind capacity would be needed to charge the batteries for daily use? Obviously both systems are not in constant use, and the biggest use is probably showers and washing clothes (I wouldn't bother using the dryer to dry clothes). Unfortunately I don't know how much my daily use of the electricity is the water heater(40G)/water pump (3/4HP).

I have figured out I would need a 5000W inverter with a start up of 10000W for those two items.
 
It's going to cost a lot to set that up with solar, wind and battery packs.

Why does it need to be an inverter? 6000w conventional generators are relatively cheap. Also, you dont need to store the gas indefinitely. Fill a few fuel cans and add stabilizer. Every 6 months or so just dump that gas into your car and get fresh stuff and add more stabilizer. Any reason why that would not be viable?
 
CruisnGrrl said:
I've been looking at solar and wind as ways to have back up power for my water heater and water pump...

the problem with a generator is if I don't have power odds are the gas station doesn't have power either + you can not store fuel indefinitely.

so I've been looking at having a bank of batteries, and inverter and solar/wind power generation.


question is how many batteries (12V) will i need and how much solar/wind capacity would be needed to charge the batteries for daily use? Obviously both systems are not in constant use, and the biggest use is probably showers and washing clothes (I wouldn't bother using the dryer to dry clothes). Unfortunately I don't know how much my daily use of the electricity is the water heater(40G)/water pump (3/4HP).

I have figured out I would need a 5000W inverter with a start up of 10000W for those two items.
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This is pretty cool, Northern Ontario.

[video=youtube_share;njkZJ-mzQQc]http://youtu.be/njkZJ-mzQQc[/video]


Use propane gas tanks to heat water in an emergency therefore you don't need lots of stored power.
Put in led lights and you now have a free lights at night.
You can charge all of your small electronics too for free.
You can run a small LED tv also for free.

Youtube has lots of DIY videos.
Harbour Freight in the US has cheap solar panel kits too.

Look up solar water heaters and solar pop can heaters
Pretty cool low tech free way to heat your house.
 
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Another alternative is to get a propane (LPG) generator for backup. Propane doesn't 'go bad' the way gasoline or diesel does.
 
Your first step is to implement all possible conservation steps. Anything that uses electric heat, convert to gas or propane. All lights, use LED. For showering, use water-saving shower heads despite the annoyance. Insulate the heck out of EVERYthing. The purpose is not only to save energy (which it will, day to day) but also to cut down on the size of the storage and auxiliary generation that you need.

If you are going to try to live as you normally do with no lifestyle changes at all when the power is out, then the storage and auxiliary generation that you need will have to be sufficient to get you off the grid ... and if you are going to do that, you might as well just go off the grid!
 
The number of panels and batteries are going to be determined by your usage/per day.
You will have to know your electrical load per day and how long it is in use per day.

If your going to be making solar power why use it when you can sell it to the Hydro companies for (was $0.82/KW) and buy it back for (Guess $0.11). Look into a microfit system.
Same thing except you can make some money on the side :D

PSY said:



Use propane gas tanks to heat water in an emergency therefore you don't need lots of stored power.
Put in led lights and you now have a free lights at night.
You can charge all of your small electronics too for free.
You can run a small LED tv also for free.
Click to expand...

Where is all this free electricity coming from? From the expensive solar panel kit?
 
Brian P said:
Your first step is to implement all possible conservation steps. Anything that uses electric heat, convert to gas or propane. All lights, use LED. For showering, use water-saving shower heads despite the annoyance. Insulate the heck out of EVERYthing. The purpose is not only to save energy (which it will, day to day) but also to cut down on the size of the storage and auxiliary generation that you need.

If you are going to try to live as you normally do with no lifestyle changes at all when the power is out, then the storage and auxiliary generation that you need will have to be sufficient to get you off the grid ... and if you are going to do that, you might as well just go off the grid!
Click to expand...

I think people can cut their bills in half.
The solar water heater is very low tech. Why do we pull ice cold water up then to heat it and have it sit while paying to keep it warm.
If that water was preheated to at the least room temp then your water heating is drastically cut down. In summer you do not need the water heater really.

Ideally a solar water heater that is setup to provide radiant heat through the house or main living area circulated via your hot water tank as primary storage would be ideal.
If you are building or renovating that would work great.

Old school plumbers used to put a U shape into the hot and cold water runs coming from the water heater. It keeps heat from going up the hot line and escaping.

There are a lot of cool things we could be doing that would save us serious money.
 
Propane powered generator is the cheapest way to do this doesn't go stale and is cheap and easy, just get a couple of 20lb BBQ tanks for standby and you are good for a few days way cheaper than any solar system. Also no batteries sitting around going bad.
 
Scuba Steve said:
Propane powered generator is the cheapest way to do this doesn't go stale and is cheap and easy, just get a couple of 20lb BBQ tanks for standby and you are good for a few days way cheaper than any solar system. Also no batteries sitting around going bad.
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The Marathon marine type batteries last for 10 years or so. It's what they use in cell towers as backup.
They can be drained and recharged without killing them. I think they call them gel filled batteries.
 
PSY said:
The Marathon marine type batteries last for 10 years or so. It's what they use in cell towers as backup.
They can be drained and recharged without killing them. I think they call them gel filled batteries.
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True but it is still going to be much more expensive for occasional backup.
 
Scuba Steve said:
Propane powered generator is the cheapest way to do this doesn't go stale and is cheap and easy, just get a couple of 20lb BBQ tanks for standby and you are good for a few days way cheaper than any solar system. Also no batteries sitting around going bad.
Click to expand...

That's a good edition as a emergency backup system but the solar and wind has daily use applications.

see my first post above for Northern Ontario setup.
 
Solar Pop Can Heaters

[video=youtube_share;BpG5sIm7AWE]http://youtu.be/BpG5sIm7AWE[/video]
 
I've toyed with energy conservation for years and it isn't cheap if it's complex. There are many things that can be done to make / conserve energy but most concepts are technical. If you don't have the expertise you have to pay someone who can fix things when they break.

The least technical systems are passive. No motors, generators, batteries etc. Passive includes upgrading insulation and windows and learning when to open and close drapes. Where to plant trees and what type.

How do you heat your house now? Can you use the same fuel in a generator? That way the stuff doesn't go stale. Gennies run on gas, propane, natural gas, diesel

Heating water with batteries is a big drain. That 4800 watt heater at 240 volts draws 20 amperes. Off a 12 volt battery a 4800 watt heater draws 400 amperes. You can series connect multiple batteries to get to a lower amperage system running on a higher voltage. However DC electricity has a lot of quirks at higher voltages so you'll end up with expensive switches

You also have to figure out how long you will be without power. In the case of storm downed lines one region told me they service in town emergency services first, then businesses, then the town residents, then the farms, then rural customers and at the end of the list, cottages. Cottages could be out for a week or more. Problems with grid shut downs could make things worse. How long to you want to be able to hold out?
 
Go Newfie's

[video=youtube_share;bRZvAAqzXIw]http://youtu.be/bRZvAAqzXIw[/video]
 
CruisnGrrl said:
The grid around me is at capacity. I looked into selling electricity. If I could go off grid for the cost of a years electricity I would, it may be something I look further into as I hate paying the pirates the bills (paying tax on electricity and as much in delivery fees as I use in electricity grinds my gears)
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Is not paying even an option? I know the gas company at my house charges a non-connection monthly fee equal to the monthly fee for connected customers. The theory being that unless everybody adopted gas it wouldn't be profitable enough for them. I tend to think greased palms (or just stupidity). For a certain time period (say 10 years after construction), this may make sense, after that, F off.

As others have said, heating water with stored electricity is almost a non-starter. Burn something for heat.

Another vote for cheapest practical solution (by a mile) for a generator. If you get a liquid cooled generator, you could use it to heat your house and water with the reject heat. Conservation helps a lot, but you still need something to provide heat/light in your house when the power's out.
 
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Have a look at a magazine called Mother Earth news. Lots of articles in there discussing exactly what you're talking about. I have a subscription to it and its one of my favourite mags but I get it more for the gardening and foodie items. For heat the large outdoor wood furnaces seem to be very popular.
 
nobbie48 said:
I've toyed with energy conservation for years and it isn't cheap if it's complex. There are many things that can be done to make / conserve energy but most concepts are technical. If you don't have the expertise you have to pay someone who can fix things when they break.

The least technical systems are passive. No motors, generators, batteries etc. Passive includes upgrading insulation and windows and learning when to open and close drapes. Where to plant trees and what type.

How do you heat your house now? Can you use the same fuel in a generator? That way the stuff doesn't go stale. Gennies run on gas, propane, natural gas, diesel

Heating water with batteries is a big drain. That 4800 watt heater at 240 volts draws 20 amperes. Off a 12 volt battery a 4800 watt heater draws 400 amperes. You can series connect multiple batteries to get to a lower amperage system running on a higher voltage. However DC electricity has a lot of quirks at higher voltages so you'll end up with expensive switches

You also have to figure out how long you will be without power. In the case of storm downed lines one region told me they service in town emergency services first, then businesses, then the town residents, then the farms, then rural customers and at the end of the list, cottages. Cottages could be out for a week or more. Problems with grid shut downs could make things worse. How long to you want to be able to hold out?
Click to expand...

If i was to do batteries i would keep them in parallel to keep voltage ~12V for the inverter to work to convert to 240VAC (or 120VAC). systems in north america seem to mostly been designed for 12VDC, 120VAC and 240VAC.

Heating is done by heating fuel (oil) and wood stove with electric base board (those have been turned off since I moved in). you can run heating fuel in diesel engines (it's often called dyed diesel). I'm also out in a rural area (the power company has me classified as a farm). I also expect at some point we are going to see another ice storm like what crippled eastern ontario and quebec 15 years ago... so time period to get back on the grid could be a few hours to a few weeks.

GreyGhost said:
Is not paying even an option? I know the gas company at my house charges a non-connection monthly fee equal to the monthly fee for connected customers. The theory being that unless everybody adopted gas it wouldn't be profitable enough for them. I tend to think greased palms (or just stupidity). For a certain time period (say 10 years after construction), this may make sense, after that, F off.

As others have said, heating water with stored electricity is almost a non-starter. Burn something for heat.

Another vote for cheapest practical solution (by a mile) for a generator. If you get a liquid cooled generator, you could use it to heat your house and water with the reject heat. Conservation helps a lot, but you still need something to provide heat/light in your house when the power's out.
Click to expand...

if you don't pay your bill and they cut you off they don't keep charging you. I would look into the whole non payment thing but I wouldn't pay the gas company for something I'm not using. personally I would love to go off grid and stay off grid and not give those pirates anymore $ but I doubt I could do that for the cost of a year's electricity.
 
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CruisnGrrl said:
If i was to do batteries i would keep them in parallel to keep voltage ~12V for the inverter to work to convert to 240VAC (or 120VAC). systems in north america seem to mostly been designed for 12VDC, 120VAC and 240VAC.

Heating is done by heating fuel (oil) and wood stove with electric base board (those have been turned off since I moved in). you can run heating fuel in diesel engines (it's often called dyed diesel). I'm also out in a rural area (the power company has me classified as a farm). I also expect at some point we are going to see another ice storm like what crippled eastern ontario and quebec 15 years ago... so time period to get back on the grid could be a few hours to a few weeks.



if you don't pay your bill and they cut you off they don't keep charging you. I would look into the whole non payment thing but I wouldn't pay the gas company for something I'm not using. personally I would love to go off grid and stay off grid and not give those pirates anymore $ but I doubt I could do that for the cost of a year's electricity.
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Take a trip down to Amish contry in Ohio and see how they live off the grid. Some nice riding too. The Amish do use electricity but won't connect to the grid because it makes them dependant on an earthly power. They generate their own power with diesel gennies.

My first thought would be to go for a diesel generator but I don't know the price. Independance isn't cheap. Part two is how long it will take for the roads to be cleared after a major event so you can refuel.

I've thought of the dooms day scenarios and the solutions aren't cheap or easy plus the government fights you all the way. Try to get anything approved that doesn't have the right label on it, good luck.
 
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