Should I request further disclosure?

[razorblade2099]

I requested full disclosure and only received the officer's note that stated he observed me doing x speed on the road and road/weather conditions. It doesn't state how he observed me driving at that speed, whether it was through pacing, or radar, or whatnot. He also had a partner with him at the time he pulled me over and it doesn't mention his partner in his notes at all. So my question, should I request further disclosure and how do I go about doing so? What should I ask for specifically?

 

[jeffjones]

If he doesn't chime PM toysareforboys as he seems to know all the ins and outs about this stuff.

 

[toysareforboys]

Hey Razor. Are the notes typed out or hand written? When is your court date?

On my disclosure request forms I never ask for "full" disclosure, that leaves it up to the crown with what they want to give you. Some of the items I ask for are:

• The Make, Model of the equipment used to clock speed by the officer.
• Copies of the testing procedures that are outlined in the equipment’s manual.
• Test results (with dates and times) for the equipment prior to and after the offence listed above.

They usually respond with a pretty detailed description of HOW the officer clocked and or "estimated" your speed. I have used it many times in my defence. If he used no device and estimated your speed please let me know and I have a sweet defence you're welcome to use.

You can read up more on this site: http://www.lawfirms.com/resources/c...s-examine-officer-speeding-ticket.htm#trained

-Jamie M.

 

[MarcosSantiago]

I requested full disclosure and only received the officer's note that stated he observed me doing x speed on the road and road/weather conditions. It doesn't state how he observed me driving at that speed, whether it was through pacing, or radar, or whatnot. He also had a partner with him at the time he pulled me over and it doesn't mention his partner in his notes at all. So my question, should I request further disclosure and how do I go about doing so? What should I ask for specifically?

I think that you answered your question yourself... definitely send another request asking for everything else...

Was the second officer part of the ticket in any way, shape, or form? Did the two officers interact with you?
Then you should request both their notes, ans explain why (example: "Officer A was operating the laser device and officer B wrote the ticket, so I am requesting both their notes ...")

 

[razorblade2099]

Court date is in mid January. Thanks for the suggestion. To be fair I did request specifics in my disclosure request that were not met, such as both sides of the ticket, a typed copy of hand written notes, and any statements made by the defendant (me). I will definitely go back and request further discloure.

Hey Razor. Are the notes typed out or hand written? When is your court date?

On my disclosure request forms I never ask for "full" disclosure, that leaves it up to the crown with what they want to give you. Some of the items I ask for are:

• The Make, Model of the equipment used to clock speed by the officer.
• Copies of the testing procedures that are outlined in the equipment’s manual.
• Test results (with dates and times) for the equipment prior to and after the offence listed above.

They usually respond with a pretty detailed description of HOW the officer clocked and or "estimated" your speed. I have used it many times in my defence. If he used no device and estimated your speed please let me know and I have a sweet defence you're welcome to use.

You can read up more on this site: http://www.lawfirms.com/resources/c...s-examine-officer-speeding-ticket.htm#trained

-Jamie M.

 

[razorblade2099]

Both Officers came up to the car. But I only really interacted with one of them while the partner watched. I have no idea how either of them was involved in recording the infraction because the disclosure didn't specify.

I think that you answered your question yourself... definitely send another request asking for everything else...

Was the second officer part of the ticket in any way, shape, or form? Did the two officers interact with you?
Then you should request both their notes, ans explain why (example: "Officer A was operating the laser device and officer B wrote the ticket, so I am requesting both their notes ...")

 

[toysareforboys]

I did request specifics in my disclosure request that were not met, such as both sides of the ticket, a typed copy of hand written notes

Then for SURE don't delay, that reason right there is good enough to request addition disclosure.

If you have not received it shortly before your court date post back on here and we'll give you a rock solid way to get your charges dismissed

-Jamie M.

 

[razorblade2099]

Thanks, I just dropped off my request for the missing items. I'll post an update when I get the rest of the missing info.

Also I wanted to congratulate your nestea hoarding this summer. I frequent rfd as well lol. Quite impressive

Then for SURE don't delay, that reason right there is good enough to request addition disclosure.

If you have not received it shortly before your court date post back on here and we'll give you a rock solid way to get your charges dismissed

-Jamie M.

 

[razorblade2099]

So it is now less than a week until my trial and I have not received disclosure after I made a second request for disclosure for additional items as well as missing items from the initial disclosure request. I called the office about 2 or 3 weeks ago saying I still had not received it and they said that I would have to talk to the prosecutor at the trial.

How should I proceed at trial? What should I say exactly to the prosecutor to have a stay of proceedings or to have the case thrown out?

 

[toysareforboys]

How should I proceed at trial? What should I say exactly to the prosecutor to have a stay of proceedings or to have the case thrown out?

They will most likely hand you disclosure when you show up at the court house. If they do, explain to the judge that you were just given disclosure, after many requests to the Prosecutor for it. It is impossible for you to form your defence on such short notice, having just received the disclosure minutes prior, so you request an adjournment WITHOUT PREJUDICE, to a future date so that I may make a proper defence.

If they DON'T have disclosure for you, request a stay of the charges. Explain the stress and mental anguish you've endured while waiting to answer for these charges. You applied for disclosure x months ago and made x phone calls and STILL have not received it. To adjourne it to a future date and extend the stress and pain to myself, would be unfair. I request that the charges against be me stayed.

Avoid saying things like "I took a day off work to be here" and "I'll have to take another day off work to come back" the court does not care.

-Jamie M.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Make sure that you have proof of your original and subsequent requests for disclosure.

 

[razorblade2099]

So I just came back from court. I talked to the police officer, and he pretty much said there was no more information to provide. He said he never received the second disclosure request because he was on vacation at the time, but then went on to explain some items on the notes that I had, including acronyms, what certain words meant, and how I was tracked doing my speed. Apparently writing "same" on the ticket means I was paced, and that the equipment used was the cop car and it's tested yada yada. They granted me my adjournment but the trial date is very soon, early next month. I need to know what specifically I should request in my next disclosure to prepare for a pacing trial?

He said that I had acknowledged doing the speed listed on the ticket, and he had it written down that I had acknowledged it in his notes, and thus he seemed very offended I was taking the ticket to trial. I honestly don't believe I was stupid enough to have acknowledged that I was speeding in front of an officer, but I also believe he honestly believes that I did acknowledge it at the time, because that was what he had written down. Am I screwed now because the notes say I acknowledged doing the speed? I know it's a he said I said situation, and in these scenarios the cops usually win.

He also said that because he wrote the ticket, only his notes matter, and his partner does have not notes on the ticket. Both officers came up to my car, and I interacted with both of them, but I don't even know the other officer's name. Is the only way to find out whether he was relevant to the ticket or not to question the main officer during trial?

Thanks for all the help so far guys, especially Jamie's help. I just need the same good advice on how to proceed from here. Normally I wouldn't fret too much and have just taken a plea bargain because this is a very minor ticket, but I have a serious ticket coming to trial in six'ish months and I can't risk having anything on my record in order to not screw my insurance further if I can't get out of the one coming up.

 

[Dresden]

Not that it matters a whole lot, but what was the details of the ticket? 50+? 10 over?

 

[razorblade2099]

Not that it matters a whole lot, but what was the details of the ticket? 50+? 10 over?

Very minor ticket. 20 over that was written down to a 14 over so there'd be no points. Normally I wouldn't fret about this type of ticket and take the first plea bargain that comes, but once again, I have a serious charge coming to trial in about 6 months that I do have worry about, and if I don't beat that charge, than anything I can do to make sure my record is clean before that conviction will be important.

 

[slowbird]

If he has in his notes that you acknowledged your guilt, then you're pretty much SOL.

 

[awyala]

I got a question.....what are the chances of the Justice not granting adjournment even if disclosure hasn't been provided? I have it on good authority that they do not have to adjourn at all based on lack of any disclosure, let alone partial or incomplete.

Thoughts?

 

[razorblade2099]

If he has in his notes that you acknowledged your guilt, then you're pretty much SOL.

Ya, pretty much what I thought. I gotta start carrying a recorder in the car for whenever I get pulled over and turn it on just to avoid stuff like this. At least if I did actually acknowledged it by accident, I'd know for sure. Should have took the plea bargain of 10 over today. Oh well, now I have to hope he doesn't show up next month I guess.

 

[razorblade2099]

I got a question.....what are the chances of the Justice not granting adjournment even if disclosure hasn't been provided? I have it on good authority that they do not have to adjourn at all based on lack of any disclosure, let alone partial or incomplete.

Thoughts?

They have to provide at minimum the officer's notes and any other evidence the crown decides to use against you if you request it. If they didn't, how else are you suppose to defend yourself?

 

[awyala]

They have to provide at minimum the officer's notes and any other evidence the crown decides to use against you if you request it. If they didn't, how else are you suppose to defend yourself?

Judge told me flat out, and supported another Justice's ruling that adjournment based on lack of provision of disclosure is not a right, and a Justice or Judge can initiate a trial on the spot, without anything being provided. Flat out I was told this in no uncertain terms by a Judge. Prosecutor later confirmed this is not uncommon.

Just grabbed this off the interwebs...sounds good at first but then softens up at the end. If the cop shows up at a trial with no prior disclosure or willsay, the Justice can still order an immediate trial with no prep for the defence.

Disclosure for your traffic offence


Your right to obtain the evidence for your traffic matter

Disclosure is the evidence the prosecutor will use against you at trial. It is called disclosure because it is the responsibility of the prosecutor to disclose all evidence against you before the trial so that you can make full answer and defence (POA, S. 46.2). This responsibility is not only outlined in the Provincial Offences Act but it is also your right under the Canadian charter of rights and freedoms. It is not specifically addressed in the charter but the logic behind your right to disclosure is outlined in case law.

What the prosecutor is obligated to give you by law is outlined in R. v. Stinchcombe.​

Reviewing disclosure is essential to determining a defence. If disclosure is not provided to you for trial and you have made numerous requests, you are entitled to costs under the Canadian charter of rights and freedoms as set out in R. v. 974649 Ontario Inc. . In most instances of non-disclosure, the Justice will remedy the situation with an adjournment, in order to give the prosecution enough time to give you the disclosure, and for you to review it. In the most extreme cases of non-disclosure a stay of proceedings will be granted


In short, what you're entitled to if not given sufficient time is...

"In sum, the function and structure of the POA indicate that the legislature intended the POA court to deal with Charter issues incidental to its process that it is suited to resolve. POA justices may thus be assumed, absent a contrary indication, to possess the power to order payment of legal costs by the Crown as a remedy for Charter violations arising from untimely disclosure."

Good luck getting them to pay your legal fees if you lose due to insufficient prep time! Your insurance is still F'ed and your fine wounded your wallet, but hey you got back $300 to $1000 for Redline.

 

[karentsang]

Interesting post. Thanks for the useful case citation. Wonder what "legal costs" are, aside from seeking legal advice etc. i.e., travel time, worktime forgone, etc. would probably not count eh.

And, were you speaking to a judge, or a justice of the peace?

Judge told me flat out, and supported another Justice's ruling that adjournment based on lack of provision of disclosure is not a right, and a Justice or Judge can initiate a trial on the spot, without anything being provided. Flat out I was told this in no uncertain terms by a Judge. Prosecutor later confirmed this is not uncommon.

Just grabbed this off the interwebs...sounds good at first but then softens up at the end. If the cop shows up at a trial with no prior disclosure or willsay, the Justice can still order an immediate trial with no prep for the defence.

Disclosure for your traffic offence


Your right to obtain the evidence for your traffic matter

Disclosure is the evidence the prosecutor will use against you at trial. It is called disclosure because it is the responsibility of the prosecutor to disclose all evidence against you before the trial so that you can make full answer and defence (POA, S. 46.2). This responsibility is not only outlined in the Provincial Offences Act but it is also your right under the Canadian charter of rights and freedoms. It is not specifically addressed in the charter but the logic behind your right to disclosure is outlined in case law.

What the prosecutor is obligated to give you by law is outlined in R. v. Stinchcombe.​

Reviewing disclosure is essential to determining a defence. If disclosure is not provided to you for trial and you have made numerous requests, you are entitled to costs under the Canadian charter of rights and freedoms as set out in R. v. 974649 Ontario Inc. . In most instances of non-disclosure, the Justice will remedy the situation with an adjournment, in order to give the prosecution enough time to give you the disclosure, and for you to review it. In the most extreme cases of non-disclosure a stay of proceedings will be granted


In short, what you're entitled to if not given sufficient time is...

"In sum, the function and structure of the POA indicate that the legislature intended the POA court to deal with Charter issues incidental to its process that it is suited to resolve. POA justices may thus be assumed, absent a contrary indication, to possess the power to order payment of legal costs by the Crown as a remedy for Charter violations arising from untimely disclosure."

Good luck getting them to pay your legal fees if you lose due to insufficient prep time! Your insurance is still F'ed and your fine wounded your wallet, but hey you got back $300 to $1000 for Redline.