Safety question - left turners

Jinniwind

Jinniwind

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Hey guys,

I guess no questions are too dumb for a beginner? I just wanna make sure that I fully understand the situation about cars making left turns without seeing a bike at intersection.

First of all, is it that when you have the green light and are going straight, the car waiting to turn left from the opposite direction didn't see you and went ahead? When cars making left turns at intersection, they always stop first and then proceed, so even if they don't see clearly and hit a bike, the speed would be around 30, and I guess it still could be fatal to bikers?

Second of all, how to prevent such things from happening? I know that you need to make yourself more visible and be more cautious, but it's a bit too general to me. I wanna know you guys' usual practice. Like, do you swerve? Or roll off the throttle a bit and slow down? Anything else?

Thanks guys for your input... Let's ride safe...
 
Jinniwind said:
Hey guys,

I guess no questions are too dumb for a beginner? I just wanna make sure that I fully understand the situation about cars making left turns without seeing a bike at intersection.

First of all, is it that when you have the green light and are going straight, the car waiting to turn left from the opposite direction didn't see you and went ahead? When cars making left turns at intersection, they always stop first and then proceed, so even if they don't see clearly and hit a bike, the speed would be around 30, and I guess it still could be fatal to bikers?

Second of all, how to prevent such things from happening? I know that you need to make yourself more visible and be more cautious, but it's a bit too general to me. I wanna know you guys' usual practice. Like, do you swerve? Or roll off the throttle a bit and slow down? Anything else?

Thanks guys for your input... Let's ride safe...
Click to expand...

Its not his speed that matters, its yours. You are just hitting a wall.
 
yea.. the problem is when people are waiting to turn left, think there's an opening and then go, and you end up t-boning them.

I move tire tracks if I think there could be a problem, there's more of a chance you'll be seen moving side-to-side. I will also sometimes drop it down a gear so my bike makes more noise if I'm approaching a really busy intersection
 
Cover the brake and roll off the throttle. Best to be in the right lane on the right side to have the most space between the car and you and the most time to react in case car driver decides to go for it. If there is also a left turning vehicle going in your direction, this is a very dangerous situation since you will be blocked from the opposite left turner's view until you're almost at the intersection. Be extra careful.
 
If you are going through an intersection and there is a green light it means the cars coming in the other direction are seeing green as well so they can actually be going fast into the turn if they don't see any oncoming traffic. Usually the car doesn't see the bike at all, but it can also mean he saw you, but judged your speed/distance incorrectly and thinks he has time to turn in front of you. We were taught in our class to ride in the right lane when entering an intersection, that way you are further away from turning car, giving you a bit more time/space to try to avoid them if they do turn towards you. Also by being on the outer lane you are more visible to them. I always approach intersections with caution, and slow down a little if need be, making sure i can tell other drivers are stopped and can see me, and while traveling through i'll keep my eye on them and make sure they made eye contact or visible notice of me.
 
There are a ton of variables that can make traveling through an intersection dangerous. Proceed with caution and do what's necessary to avoid a left turning vehical. I know that's a bland answer but there are so many situations that can occur that there's no correct answer to your question. Use your skill and judgment.
 
If Im behind a vehicle and there is a car making a left as we approach the intersection, I'll move to the left tire track to make my self visible to the left turner. than I'll move back to the right tire lane to give myself some distance incase they decide to make the turn in front of me.

just use caution and good judgement.
 
Read this article on motion camouflage, it really made me realize how attentive you have to be at EVERY intersection.

I find that if you first assume that the car waiting to make the left turn WILL suddenly floor it at any second, the you can prepare a before and after plan.

1. Shift lane position so that it breaks line of sight with the left turning vehicle. So if you are in the right tire track of the left lane, shifting to the left tire track is not sufficient as it create an even more direct path to the vehicle opposite. To break line of sight, and hopefully trigger edge detection so the oncoming drive can effectively see you and judge your distance, you must make a positional shift to the right. So in the case above, switch to the left, then back to the right.

2. Pick the impact point where you would likely hit the car if the driver were to gun it in front of you. Work back from there. It is best if you have a good feeling for your stopping distance at the speed you are traveling, which is why you will never waste your time practicing emergency braking.

3. Pick the point of no return after which you will no longer be able to safely stop. To increase this distance, slow down as you approach.

4. Keep you eyes on the driver and vehicle and watch for any sighs of forward movement. Cover the brakes, but I wouldn't try shifting lanes completely at the last second as this may be more dangerous unless you know for sure there is no one behind you to the right.

5. After you reach the point of no return, acceleration is your best friend. Increase speed (if safe to do so) and get the hell out of the intersection.

6. Be aware of any other threats and where the other traffic is in reaction to your position. Emergency stopping is not nearly as effective when there is a dump truck a quarter second behind you.

It is a lot to process, esp for a new rider. I have practiced making this a routine everytime I see an an approaching left-turning vehicle. Don't assume they don't see you, but rather assume they do see you and that their job is to take you out.

After a few weeks of processing this all consciously at every intersection, it eventually becomes 2nd nature.
 
Just to stress two points made in this thread:

1. Don't be in the left tire track, I was almost one of the "idiot cagers" in this situation today cause a girl on a CBR125R was riding the left track in the left lane next to a line of cars. Any of the cars behind me would've flattened her cause they were laying on the horns for me to go.

2. Make noise and make yourself visible when approaching. There's nothing wrong with letting the RPMs run high and weaving slightly within your lane.

Edit:

3. You're not impressing anyone riding with all black gear on an all black bike. Throw some colour or reflectors in there.

Note that 3 isn't directed at you.
 
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Macs said:
Just to stress two points made in this thread:

1. Don't be in the left tire track, I was almost one of the "idiot cagers" in this situation today cause a girl on a CBR125R was riding the left track in the left lane next to a line of cars. Any of the cars behind me would've flattened her cause they were laying on the horns for me to go.
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Hate those cars that honk at you to go. They should be equally responsible should an accident happen. Just remembering back when that motorcyclist had his leg severed cauz the lady felt pressured to turn left by people honking at her. People just need to chill an extra minute is not going to kill you but might kill someone else.

to add to point #6 of Ikelso when I approach every intersection I do a quick assessment of my surroundings regarding cars behind and beside me so I have an idea where my escape route would be and adjust my position to my best advantage whether that be using other cars as blockers or giving myself better visibility to others and improving my escape route.
 
Jinniwind said:
Hey guys,

I guess no questions are too dumb for a beginner? I just wanna make sure that I fully understand the situation about cars making left turns without seeing a bike at intersection.

First of all, is it that when you have the green light and are going straight, the car waiting to turn left from the opposite direction didn't see you and went ahead? When cars making left turns at intersection, they always stop first and then proceed, so even if they don't see clearly and hit a bike, the speed would be around 30, and I guess it still could be fatal to bikers?

Second of all, how to prevent such things from happening? I know that you need to make yourself more visible and be more cautious, but it's a bit too general to me. I wanna know you guys' usual practice. Like, do you swerve? Or roll off the throttle a bit and slow down? Anything else?

Thanks guys for your input... Let's ride safe...
Click to expand...

Just wanted to add something from my safety course. It won't always be the best option especially in an intersection, but they said of the two emergency maneuvers; if it's a stationary object, swerve; if it's moving emergency brake. Swerving when they're turning left won't be as effective as braking (if you have enough space) because you don't know whether or not they'll slam the brakes or floor it once they see you. So you may swerve right into them.
 
psycho44 said:
Hate those cars that honk at you to go. They should be equally responsible should an accident happen. Just remembering back when that motorcyclist had his leg severed cauz the lady felt pressured to turn left by people honking at her. People just need to chill an extra minute is not going to kill you but might kill someone else.

to add to point #6 of Ikelso when I approach every intersection I do a quick assessment of my surroundings regarding cars behind and beside me so I have an idea where my escape route would be and adjust my position to my best advantage whether that be using other cars as blockers or giving myself better visibility to others and improving my escape route.
Click to expand...

For sure. It's just lucky I don't drive with my music on in traffic so I can hear things better. Baaarely heard the engine, couldn't see the bike which is the only reason I didn't go.
 
I keep an eye out for both the left and right turners. Sometimes they start to roll forward as I approach, so I release the throttle and tap the horn. The two times I remember doing this both cars stopped moving. One car was about to make a right turn into my lane ahead of me (view of me was obstructed by a pickup waiting to turn left); the other was waiting to make a left and started rolling forward to initiate the turn.

Every time I go through an intersection now, or see a potential hazard, my thumb is over the horn. Having a stebel helps get their attention :) .. I have never needed to blast it yet, only slight taps.

nice tip tsdexter

tsdexter said:
...if it's a stationary object, swerve; if it's moving emergency brake.
Click to expand...
 
Good point. If possible, I often adjust my speed approaching an intersection so I can pass through alongside another vehicle. I believe it is better to be to the left of the vehicle you are using as a blocker.

And just because you can see them, doesn't mean they can see you. Remember you may be riding higher than other vehicles and if you are right behind another car, without realizing it you are masked from the helmet down. Keep your distance and try to make sure a left turning vehicle gets a full view of you as far in advance as possible.


tsdexter said:
Just wanted to add something from my safety course. It won't always be the best option especially in an intersection, but they said of the two emergency maneuvers; if it's a stationary object, swerve; if it's moving emergency brake. Swerving when they're turning left won't be as effective as braking (if you have enough space) because you don't know whether or not they'll slam the brakes or floor it once they see you. So you may swerve right into them.
Click to expand...
 
Twitch18 said:
I keep an eye out for both the left and right turners. Sometimes they start to roll forward as I approach, so I release the throttle and tap the horn. The two times I remember doing this both cars stopped moving. One car was about to make a right turn into my lane ahead of me (view of me was obstructed by a pickup waiting to turn left); the other was waiting to make a left and started rolling forward to initiate the turn.

Every time I go through an intersection now, or see a potential hazard, my thumb is over the horn. Having a stebel helps get their attention :) .. I have never needed to blast it yet, only slight taps.

nice tip tsdexter
Click to expand...

Thanks. What's a stebel?

ikelso said:
Good point. If possible, I often adjust my speed approaching an intersection so I can pass through alongside another vehicle. I believe it is better to be to the left of the vehicle you are using as a blocker.

And just because you can see them, doesn't mean they can see you. Remember you may be riding higher than other vehicles and if you are right behind another car, without realizing it you are masked from the helmet down. Keep your distance and try to make sure a left turning vehicle gets a full view of you as far in advance as possible.
Click to expand...

Good points. I'll keep them in mind when I go practice this week.
 
tsdexter said:
Thanks. What's a stebel?
Click to expand...

Its an airhorn, you can get it from twistedthrottle.com or from their canadian reseller, aviciouscycle.ca. Mine doesnt seem to be as loud as the one in the video, but its still a lot better than stock. I have the horn and compressor mounted separately, lots of info on other forums on how to this (its really simple).


A Vicious Cycle (CAN):http://aviciouscycle.ca/MainPages/productpage.aspx?productid=367
Twisted Throttle (US):http://www.twistedthrottle.com/trade/productview/2137


[video=youtube;uuakT7YK0kU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuakT7YK0kU[/video]​
 
I usually drop my speed just a bit, try to stay just behind a car on the lane next to me. I usually ride on the left lane but. I do keep my blocking position and try to zigzag a bit so people can see me

Def change some colors. I like the idea of wearing black jacket with a green bike n a light color helmet creating contrast that won't be easy to miss with the back ground. I also like the idea of having red on the back of my helmet, just cuz red means stop

Sent from phone
 
Also in addition to all the above, if you keep in mind that all sorts of mayhem occurs at intersections. As you approach the intersection roll off the throttle and back off,way off. This way you give yourself braking/avoidance/ mirror checking/ pick an option time, too close and you have no time to see a situation develop and take evasive action as necessary.
 
Jinniwind said:
...I just wanna make sure that I fully understand the situation about cars making left turns without seeing a bike at intersection.

...how to prevent such things from happening? I know that you need to make yourself more visible and be more cautious, but it's a bit too general to me. I wanna know you guys' usual practice. Like, do you swerve? Or roll off the throttle a bit and slow down? Anything else?...
Click to expand...

Intersections are one of the most dangerous areas of the road for motorcyclists. There are a number of distractions both for the rider and other drivers, including those ubiquitous countdown timers. You can get seriously maimed or killed at any intersection. The many threads on this forum covering left turners and intersections highlight the importance given by fellow riders.

There are some strategies that can reduce the risk of the left turner. Firstly, and the best one that I use, is ride to the right of a "blocker" vehicle, car or truck. Left turners are less likely to hit a car, as they are large and the left turner will get seriously damaged. Speed up or slow down in order to match the blocker's speed. Secondly, as stated before, slow down and keep your finger on the horn. I also weave left to right slightly. I do this in order to make myself look "odd" or unusual to the left turner. This slightly erratic behaviour may snap the left turner out of their autopilot mode. As a biker you have limited options. Reducing speed will limit your damage but not eliminate the risk.

The issues of inattentional blindness and motion camouflage come into play. Due to physiological reasons it is possible for a driver to look right through you and your bike and literally not see you. Both these issues have been well documented. Research SMIDSY (Sorry Mate, I did not see you). V-Tom champions this issue on this forum. Inattentional blindness is not limited to drivers not seeing motorcyclists, is worldwide and well studied.

No matter than you wear bright fluorescent or a pink bunny suit (though these two can help get you more attention), inattentional blindness can affect a left turner driver and there is little you can do about it. Therefore there is no possible way to prevent the risk of the left turner. Bikes are small, drivers are distracted, on the phone talking, they drive on autopilot and need something to shake them out of their daze. There are simply too many variables that we as riders cannot control. Without a blocker, reduce your speed, cover your brakes and be prepared to stop in order to reduce your injury.
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