Rules for "Fallen Riders/In Memory of" forum

[Relax]

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While I understand that the rules in place are to prevent discussion of whether a rider was right or wrong, I think this is a lost opportunity to understand the FACTS of the incident so that we can learn from it. I personally try to reconstruct each of these from what little info is available to add to what to look out for while riding. Reposting the same articles in General Discussion seems redundant, and if we're doing that just so we can discuss, then what's the difference?

 

[Lightcycle]

You want to discuss how to learn from accidents? Repost it on General Motorcycle Forum and bring it up as a hypothetical: "*If* an oncoming SUV drifts into my lane, what should *I* do?

There's no reason why any real human being with real family and friends who are grieving should ever be exposed to the type of thoughtless and mean-spirited conversation that all threads on motorcycle accidents eventually devolve into.

 

[Relax]

You want to discuss how to learn from accidents? Repost it on General Motorcycle Forum and bring it up as a hypothetical: "*If* an oncoming SUV drifts into my lane, what should *I* do?

There's no reason why any real human being with real family and friends who are grieving should ever be exposed to the type of thoughtless and mean-spirited conversation that all threads on motorcycle accidents eventually devolve into.

I think case study is much more valuable than hypotheticals. Maybe the rule could be changed to "no thoughtless and mean-spirited conversation - stick to the facts."

Here's an example. Last week I almost got wiped out by left turner at a light. If worse came to worse, I would hope that someone could learn a valuable lesson from my misfortune and that it would count for something.

Referring to the diagram below, I was southbound like the white car, beisde and behind the truck. The yellow car turned left as we approached the intersection with the light still green. The truck slammed on his brakes, and only then did I see the car appear in front of me as I hit my brakes. Luckily, of all the stupid things the car did, at least it kept accelerating instead of slowing down or stopping like a deer caught in our headlights when it realized I was also there beside the truck.



Even though I had the right of way, as a defensive rider I consider that I made the mistake of approaching an intersection in the "shadow" of another vehicle blocking my view of the oncoming left turn lane. I also didn't bother to look far enough ahead prior to approaching the intersection. My only excuse was that I was on way my home late at night after a long day of riding and I was tired. But that's just another mistake.

 

[Lightcycle]

I think case study is much more valuable than hypotheticals.

Case study or hypotheticals, the point was, I don't think people's names and identities should be brought into the conversation.

Especially in a fatality or life-changing injury.

Just copy the details and circumstances of the accident into General, and pose the question, "What could have been done to avoid the accident?"

 

[GreyGhost]

Case study or hypotheticals, the point was, I don't think people's names and identities should be brought into the conversation.

Especially in a fatality or life-changing injury.

Just copy the details and circumstances of the accident into General, and pose the question, "What could have been done to avoid the accident?"

I like that idea. Nothing that a Google search for the crash would find. Many times the rider is at fault and family/friends may not want that information.

 

[Fuzzbuster]

While I understand that the rules in place are to prevent discussion of whether a rider was right or wrong, I think this is a lost opportunity to understand the FACTS of the incident so that we can learn from it. I personally try to reconstruct each of these from what little info is available to add to what to look out for while riding. Reposting the same articles in General Discussion seems redundant, and if we're doing that just so we can discuss, then what's the difference?

I agree with you 1000 percent. There are mechanisms to every accident that can prevented or minimized with the result hopefully not being a repeat. I never understood why this was not done at the track or in racing series. So much can be learned but it seems it is a taboo thing to discuss.

 

[GreyGhost]

I agree with you 1000 percent. There are mechanisms to every accident that can prevented or minimized with the result hopefully not being a repeat. I never understood why this was not done at the track or in racing series. So much can be learned but it seems it is a taboo thing to discuss.

Back to people not wanting to hear their friend screwed up or not wanting to acknowledge that we all screw up and sometimes there are consequences. It's easier mentally to call it a tragic accident even though that is rarely the case. Makes it easier to go 10/10ths next race expecting bike and riders to behave predictably.

 

[shanekingsley]

If I recall correctly, the fallen riders section used to allow regular comments around 15+ years ago and it routinely devolved into inappropriate banter. Alsothe families of fallen riders also come onto the forum from time to time and that was not the sub-forum for them to be reading the banter, so it was changed to RIP only. Unfortunately and like the non-replies in the classified section, the few who cannot self moderate ruin it for the rest.

 

[Wingboy]

Lighcycle has it right in post #2. It will remain the same

 

[Fuzzbuster]

I think case study is much more valuable than hypotheticals. Maybe the rule could be changed to "no thoughtless and mean-spirited conversation - stick to the facts."

Here's an example. Last week I almost got wiped out by left turner at a light. If worse came to worse, I would hope that someone could learn a valuable lesson from my misfortune and that it would count for something.

Referring to the diagram below, I was southbound like the white car, beisde and behind the truck. The yellow car turned left as we approached the intersection with the light still green. The truck slammed on his brakes, and only then did I see the car appear in front of me as I hit my brakes. Luckily, of all the stupid things the car did, at least it kept accelerating instead of slowing down or stopping like a deer caught in our headlights when it realized I was also there beside the truck.

View attachment 69749

Even though I had the right of way, as a defensive rider I consider that I made the mistake of approaching an intersection in the "shadow" of another vehicle blocking my view of the oncoming left turn lane. I also didn't bother to look far enough ahead prior to approaching the intersection. My only excuse was that I was on way my home late at night after a long day of riding and I was tired. But that's just another mistake.

Is it quebec that has the left turn after the light has changed. So you can't make a left while there is traffic flowing straight? I think this is starting to make more sense. Who thought it was a good idea to make left turns at random between traffic flowing straight?

 

[GreyGhost]

Is it quebec that has the left turn after the light has changed. So you can't make a left while there is traffic flowing straight? I think this is starting to make more sense. Who thought it was a good idea to make left turns at random between traffic flowing straight?

I have no idea if the latest crash was at an intersection. On a similar note though, if a road has two or more lanes in each direction, uncontrolled left turns should just be prohibited. Drivers have great difficulty turning left across one lane without crashing. Two, especially if the second is screened, is a disaster. Left only at lights and have a separate light for left turn vs straight/right.

 

[Relax]

Case study or hypotheticals, the point was, I don't think people's names and identities should be brought into the conversation.

Especially in a fatality or life-changing injury.

Just copy the details and circumstances of the accident into General, and pose the question, "What could have been done to avoid the accident?"

OK, so just to be sure I understand, we can post these same news reports into the General forum and there we can collaborate to figure out what happened, just not in the Fallen Riders forum?

Collision in Mississauga leaves motorcyclist dead: Peel police

One person is dead after a motorcyclist collided with another vehicle in Mississauga early Friday morning, Peel Regional Police say.

toronto.ctvnews.ca

Motorcyclist dead, others injured in Mississauga crash

Peel Regional Police officers were called to the Ridgeway Drive and Odyssey Drive area just after 2 a.m. on Friday.

toronto.citynews.ca

I havent been able to get my mind off this one trying to figure out how the bike ended up where it is.

 

[Relax]

I read the news reports. There's literally zero information to discuss. Motorcyclist collided with another vehicle. What is there to discuss?

Well, let's start with how the car and motorcycle ended up nowhere near the intersection and facing the same way, but with the helmet on the other side ofthe car?

Clearly, the motorcycle T-boned the car's dirver side, but how?

 

[GreyGhost]

Well, let's start with how the car and motorcycle ended up nowhere near the intersection and facing the same way, but with the helmet on the other side ofthe car?

Clearly, the motorcycle T-boned the car's dirver side, but how?

My first guess given only that information is car doing u-turn or left out of a driveway.

 

[raginduck]

OK, so just to be sure I understand, we can post these same news reports into the General forum and there we can collaborate to figure out what happened, just not in the Fallen Riders forum?

Collision in Mississauga leaves motorcyclist dead: Peel police

One person is dead after a motorcyclist collided with another vehicle in Mississauga early Friday morning, Peel Regional Police say.

toronto.ctvnews.ca

Motorcyclist dead, others injured in Mississauga crash

Peel Regional Police officers were called to the Ridgeway Drive and Odyssey Drive area just after 2 a.m. on Friday.

toronto.citynews.ca

I havent been able to get my mind off this one trying to figure out how the bike ended up where it is.

So.. you want to fill in the blanks with guesses and assumptions.. and then collaborate to figure out what might have happened?

It's not a case study when you don't know the facts.

 

[mimico_polak]

I'm all for getting information regarding accidents where I can learn something. But...to go and 'analyze' an accident by seemingly armchair traffic investigators is a dicey roll.

Most accidents are fairly simple. Left turner, u-turn, too fast for corner, etc. The complex ones...unless you were actually there and was able to witness...it's nothing more than assumptions, conjecture, and good ol fashion guessing.

 

[Fuzzbuster]

This is what we are up against out there on the roads! Pretty much sums it up, just missing the u turn!

 

[AFJ]

Riding within the "limit point" (being able to stop on your own side of the road within the distance ahead that you can see to be clear) is an old British police rider's safety practice has been useful to me for many, many years, both when riding a motorcycle and driving a car. Concerning intersection cross-turning situations a lot of drivers these days - especially commercial vehicle drivers - are in a hurry to make the crossing turn and figure "might is right".
There is some old research evidence which suggests that the narrower oncoming motorcycle profile at an intersection is not "recognized" as being "a threat" to car or truck drivers making a left (crossing) turn in front of them. (Long ago the excuse was "I didn't see him". or "He came from nowhere - he must have been speeding.")
AFJ

 

[Relax]

So.. you want to fill in the blanks with guesses and assumptions.. and then collaborate to figure out what might have happened?

It's not a case study when you don't know the facts.

Well, deduction and experience. We may never determine what exactly happened, but discussing the plausible possiblities accomplishes the same goal - which is to build situational awareness of dangerous scenarios.

 

[raginduck]

Well, deduction and experience. We may never determine what exactly happened, but discussing the plausible possiblities accomplishes the same goal - which is to build situational awareness of dangerous scenarios.

I get that.. but now you're basically back to hypotheticals.
I remember when we used to be able to do that.. the discussions went in ways that led to banning it.
I'm pretty sure.. if we try it again.. the same thing will happen.

If we are going to try it again.. maybe create a running thread in trash talk (similar to law enforcement).. at least that way no one will be accidentally run into a discussion they don't want to see.. I think being in TT will also hide it from google searches?

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