Getting "look where you want to go" drilled home, and getting proper body position and braking sorted out, are not "artificial". Most crashes on winding roads aren't due to loss of traction. They're due to failure to turn.
Riding the twisties after attending race school
- Thread starter sid_for_speed
- Start date
Yeah... No.
Track experience will teach you where the limit is, how to explore those limits safely and what a motorcycle can and, more importantly, cannot do. Do not confuse speed with control. An experienced track rider will have better control at an elevated speed than an inexperienced rider will even at low speed. Track riding helps you understand safety margin.
Track riding is a balance of continually finding the traction limit under a set of ever changing conditions. An avid track rider understands that the street is not a controlled environment, has significant environmental factors and what the impact of exceeding adhesion limits are. It will teach you how much input you can apply and the expected output as as result under a given set of conditions. The assumption that track riding equates to overriding on the street is a completely false. In fact it's quite the opposite. On average, experienced track riders do not override on the street. Maybe the street kids that wizz down the Gardiner, but do not confuse the two.
What it will teach you however is not to panic, muscle reflex and what input you should be giving a motorcycle in traction limited applications, i.e. emergency braking. The result is two fold, since track riders have an outlet and don't feel the need to take on additional risk on the street or push the limit.
Remember, spend money on skill development, not farkles. Skill stays with you regardless of what bike you are on.
Track experience will teach you where the limit is, how to explore those limits safely and what a motorcycle can and, more importantly, cannot do. Do not confuse speed with control. An experienced track rider will have better control at an elevated speed than an inexperienced rider will even at low speed. Track riding helps you understand safety margin.
Track riding is a balance of continually finding the traction limit under a set of ever changing conditions. An avid track rider understands that the street is not a controlled environment, has significant environmental factors and what the impact of exceeding adhesion limits are. It will teach you how much input you can apply and the expected output as as result under a given set of conditions. The assumption that track riding equates to overriding on the street is a completely false. In fact it's quite the opposite. On average, experienced track riders do not override on the street. Maybe the street kids that wizz down the Gardiner, but do not confuse the two.
What it will teach you however is not to panic, muscle reflex and what input you should be giving a motorcycle in traction limited applications, i.e. emergency braking. The result is two fold, since track riders have an outlet and don't feel the need to take on additional risk on the street or push the limit.
Remember, spend money on skill development, not farkles. Skill stays with you regardless of what bike you are on.
Sometimes when playing video games, somebody with far less experience, with a really bad kill:death ratio, will make a completely retarded statement that screams "I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I'm going to say this anyway to make my ego a little bigger because my *** is getting kicked too hard."
You just did that, on a public forum, with a lot of track junkies, in a thread with track junkies talking about how gitting gudder at riding makes a rider more safe overall due to increased skill ceiling.
For future reference...don't do this. You might feel better temporarily until the experts call you out.
I know you're asking out of sarcasm or to be a smart ***, but on the off chance you aren't:
An expert rider is one that knows their limits because they have gone past it numerous times during the pursuit to further it. Putting this type of rider on the street, one that is humble with one's limit and has an understanding of where it is, is an expert street rider.
Also, reread smergy's really well thought out response as opposed to me just being a dick
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油井緋色;2601194 said:I know you're asking out of sarcasm or to be a smart ***, but on the off chance you aren't:
An expert rider is one that knows their limits because they have gone past it numerous times during the pursuit to further it. Putting this type of rider on the street, one that is humble with one's limit and has an understanding of where it is, is an expert street rider.
Also, reread smergy's really well thought out response as opposed to me just being a dick
I wasn’t being sarcastic, I was being honest. Getting from A to B safely on the roads is my priority when I ride and the majority of riders manage to do this close to or within posted limits and still enjoy themselves. Push the limits and you push your luck expert or no expert. You might look super cool strafing apexes to keep a racing line on some curves but when the semi comes around the same corner in your lane that won’t be an Instagram moment. For riding on the street I’m more apt to seek out the advice of someone like a police rider rather than a trackday junkie.
Ahh, the track vs. street rider debacle continues. I still attest that track riding does not necessarily make you a better rider on the street. If the ultimate goal of track riding is a low lap time the ultimate goal of street riding falls somewhere around the objective of 'not dying.' lol. Unfortunately, I think society/pop-culture tend to equate overall skill with how fast someone is, or how much lean they have versus much of anything else.
To venture into extremes for a moment - take an 18 year old kid that has grown up on the track (dirt/road, etc..). The kid has a 6th sense when it comes to bike control. That will translate very well to the street, but at 18 years old with around 1 or two years of possible on-road riding that kid has no where near the level of a 6th sense when it comes to 'road awareness.' Compared to the track I'd suggest the variables and unknowns on the street a far greater in count and severity, and at worst may cost one's life.
I'd also suggest that there are a great many individuals that simply will never develop as a high skill level as others when it comes to road awareness (in all those two words account for). Too bad there are very limited if any at all courses that develop on-road skill compared to the amount of track courses.
We also have lap-times to measure how big or wee-wee's are on the track, and simply don't have anything when it comes to on-road skill save - not dying or lack of accidents. lol.
Power to those that have taken track courses and were able to expertly control a bike in an emergency situation. Perhaps a little more skill or experience on road may have avoided the emergency situation all together? ?
To venture into extremes for a moment - take an 18 year old kid that has grown up on the track (dirt/road, etc..). The kid has a 6th sense when it comes to bike control. That will translate very well to the street, but at 18 years old with around 1 or two years of possible on-road riding that kid has no where near the level of a 6th sense when it comes to 'road awareness.' Compared to the track I'd suggest the variables and unknowns on the street a far greater in count and severity, and at worst may cost one's life.
I'd also suggest that there are a great many individuals that simply will never develop as a high skill level as others when it comes to road awareness (in all those two words account for). Too bad there are very limited if any at all courses that develop on-road skill compared to the amount of track courses.
We also have lap-times to measure how big or wee-wee's are on the track, and simply don't have anything when it comes to on-road skill save - not dying or lack of accidents. lol.
Power to those that have taken track courses and were able to expertly control a bike in an emergency situation. Perhaps a little more skill or experience on road may have avoided the emergency situation all together? ?
Oh, is that what this is about? That's easy then - when riding on the street, leave your wee-wee at home. It won't get you into any trouble that way
After track riding and racing, my interest in riding on the street came down by 90% if it can be quantified.
As for the debate you guys are having about does having more track riding make a rider better. Well to throw my 2 cents into this: If all other things are considered, I absolutely say yes having track time does make you a better rider. Why not?
When you ride track or race, you push limits, when you push limits you get into panic situations and when that happens as you all know, the basic fight/flight takes over and that's the real fight. So the practicing and exposure to it obviously (to me) makes one a better rider, so when you do see the semi coming or lane running out, you're still able to navigate to the best of your training. You might not make it 100% of the time, but statistically you should fair better.
Do you need track to make you a better rider on the street? No.
However, if you're always in "perfect" mode and get from A to B within posted limits (curves and otherwise) and thus far haven't been challenged by any outlier cases, then I'd wager that your reaction to those cases would be significantly worse than someone who continuously practice the craft to their extreme ability. Cause it's never the bike or the road or the semi you're fighting against...It's your damn bird brain that wants you to jump off the bike at the first chance of trouble and whatever you can do to mitigate that is obviously a win for the good guys, no?
...and it also makes you a better lover, so take that haters...hahaha.
As for the debate you guys are having about does having more track riding make a rider better. Well to throw my 2 cents into this: If all other things are considered, I absolutely say yes having track time does make you a better rider. Why not?
When you ride track or race, you push limits, when you push limits you get into panic situations and when that happens as you all know, the basic fight/flight takes over and that's the real fight. So the practicing and exposure to it obviously (to me) makes one a better rider, so when you do see the semi coming or lane running out, you're still able to navigate to the best of your training. You might not make it 100% of the time, but statistically you should fair better.
Do you need track to make you a better rider on the street? No.
However, if you're always in "perfect" mode and get from A to B within posted limits (curves and otherwise) and thus far haven't been challenged by any outlier cases, then I'd wager that your reaction to those cases would be significantly worse than someone who continuously practice the craft to their extreme ability. Cause it's never the bike or the road or the semi you're fighting against...It's your damn bird brain that wants you to jump off the bike at the first chance of trouble and whatever you can do to mitigate that is obviously a win for the good guys, no?
...and it also makes you a better lover, so take that haters...hahaha.
Every time I have encountered a rider who putters along at or below posted or yellow-sign speeds (aside from in bad weather) they have been scary terrible. Sometimes they are beginners, fair enough. The gawd awful slowpokes don't know how to ride.
Well said, JC100 (Jesus Christ 100%?). *Regular* trackday instruction increases control at the ragged edge (the whole point of trackdays, surely). Claiming those skills justify pushing limits on public thoroughfares is pretty irresponsible. If someone wants to enjoy their day off at sensible speeds, why not?
It's not about control at the ragged edge.
It's about knowing where to look in order to get through whatever situation presents itself in front of you, and drilling that home until it becomes habitual.
It's about not having a panic when a situation pops up that you have to deal with.
It's about making control of the bike second-nature so that you don't have to think about that aspect of it while riding. On the track, I am thinking high-level about who is around me and planning upcoming strategy and maneuvers. Operating the bike is the low-level background program that runs itself without me paying attention to it. On the street ... I am also thinking high-level about what's around, and planning upcoming strategy and maneuvers. The same background program runs itself to operate the bike.
If you really want to screw me up, put me on a bike with normal (not reversed) shift pattern so that the low-level operating system program is wrong. All of my bikes are GP-shift.
It's about knowing where to look in order to get through whatever situation presents itself in front of you, and drilling that home until it becomes habitual.
It's about not having a panic when a situation pops up that you have to deal with.
It's about making control of the bike second-nature so that you don't have to think about that aspect of it while riding. On the track, I am thinking high-level about who is around me and planning upcoming strategy and maneuvers. Operating the bike is the low-level background program that runs itself without me paying attention to it. On the street ... I am also thinking high-level about what's around, and planning upcoming strategy and maneuvers. The same background program runs itself to operate the bike.
If you really want to screw me up, put me on a bike with normal (not reversed) shift pattern so that the low-level operating system program is wrong. All of my bikes are GP-shift.
This, and so ****ing much this.
None of you guys talking about sixth sense against horribad drivers are wrong. I started driving cars way before motorcycles and had no accidents despite being Asian. However, once I got into motorcycles and took "gitting gudder" more and more seriously, I realized how much I didn't know and how little skill I actually had.
It hit me like a ****ing truck when I realized I was one of those drivers who thought I was decent at driving but actually sucked donkey ****, and to put emphasis on this, I never had an accident in a car so please don't use this low *** bar as a measurement. I was simply lucky that I never did anything stupid that caused traction loss, which you regularly see on turns during heavy snow.
The yellow posted limits Brian mention are atrociously ****ing low. They are so ****ing low because the skill floor required to operate a motor vehicle in Ontario is too ****ing low. The skill gap between any track junkie that understands the limits I talked about earlier and a regular street commuter is massive. And this gap, imo, should be a **** ton smaller but I'm pretty sure we'll have autonomous vehicles instead.
I ride like a saint on city roads but if I see an empty stretch or know a hwy ramp is clear, I will absolutely turn my "try hard" to 7/10. At this point I am extremely close to dragging knee, and I have never once come close to crashing the same way I have on track where most will operate between 8/10 to 10/10, and we've all accidentally gone to 11/10.
The guys who've never done track in this thread suggest this is "dangerous" because they lack the appreciation behind handling a motorcycle. They lack the understanding of where their limits actually are.
But hey, I was exactly like that before.
Bottom line: knowledge acquired to operate your motor vehicle better is always transferable (and in this case, it transfers to driving a car too.) Understanding where your mental limits are and increasing them is priceless as well. And there is no ****ing way any of us understand our subjective personal limits until we go past them and learn the hard way.
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I had a long response typed out here but let’s just summarize with your post is the reason why I’m not seeking out advice for riding on the street from someone that believes a couple of track days makes them an expert rider. I’ll say this again though as I’ve said it before, you can get an insurance reduction in the UK from taking courses similar to total control from police riders for example. Taking race/track courses gets you absolutely nada there. There’s a pretty long established reason for this. Of course any extra instruction that leads you to be comfortable with your bike and it’s limits is useful and not a waste of money but for street riding it should be a focus on handling and obstacle avoidance rather than speed.
I've read 3 books, woke up at 5AM to put pylons I bought from Dollarama in parking lots to do drills, took Total Control, took Racer5, and lost count of # of track days. Only reason I stopped is because learning is expensive.
I'm not done and plan to learn more in the future. Nobody that wants to learn is ever done.
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I stayed at a Holiday Inn once!
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