Question About "Disobey Sign" Ticket (how boned am I?) | GTAMotorcycle.com

Question About "Disobey Sign" Ticket (how boned am I?)

J

JohnLeePettimore

Member
Got a ticket today, turned right somewhere I have turned right a bunch of times in the past, only forgot I was a little early thismorning (have a long drive to get there and traffic was MUCH lighter than normal) and there is a sign saying "no turn 7am-9am." Wasn't halfway around the corner before the cop was walking towards me pointing to pull over. I was confused at first then looked at the lock and realized what happened. I ended up with a ticket for "disobey sign." This isn't really a thread about "how do I fight it?", I'm more just curious about how screwed I am or am not. I'm 29, clean record, GM2 license. Just got my M2 in June, M1 was April. Was on 4 wheels at the time of the ticket. I'm already paying close to $300/month for insurance on my 750 Shadow and really don't want that to go up much more My car I'm under $100 a month so I don't care. Any thoughts?

On a sidenote I was disappointed with how the officer conducted himself. Before I was even fully stopped he was in my window yelling at me that there are "2 signs saying you cannot turn there between 7 and 9 am." (There are not two signs, I checked after). However, I just said yes sir, you are right, sorry sir. He said "give me your license and insurance" so I handed them over, he looked at the insurance slip for a few seconds then actually tossed it back at me, then said "I'll be back" and walked to the back of my vehicle for a minute or so then came back, handed me a ticket and my license and said "just read both sides of this" then walked away. I tried to ask him about points or if it counts as a moving violation but he just kept walking. I'm pretty disappointed in this kind of conduct. I was nothing less than respectful and polite with him, I respect that he is just doing his job. I haven't had a ticket before, so I don't know this, but is it common practice for police to yell at people during a traffic stop?
 
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It's a moving violation, and the insurance company will count it as a minor ticket for the next 3 years.

Whether that does anything to your rates or not, may vary from one insurance company to the next and one policy to the next. You may have one-ticket-forgiveness, or you may not.

If you currently have a good record, there is a high probability that if you are a good little boy for the next 3 years, and you don't do anything that would cause the insurance company to check your driving record - no claims, but also no changes to vehicle policies, no new vehicles, no selling old ones, etc., don't change ANYthing - the insurance company could quite possibly never check your record.

The cop isn't required to be nice and friendly, although displaying an attitude doesn't do themselves any favors.
 
It's a 2 point ticket plus the fine. It'll be virtually impossible to beat as unless you can prove the sign is obscured somehow or you come up with something the judge hasn't heard a million times..the charge will stick. The fact that there was apparently an officer there enforcing that sign specficically would indicate to me that there's been a problem with people just not paying attention to it, so the officer will mention the targeted enforcement and lay out his case in such a way that you won't be likely to negotiate your way out of it.

But like Brian said, it's a minor...most insurance companies will let a minor slide, or if you do get surcharged it'll be fairly minor.

If you take it to court and plead guilty with an explanation they will not lower the points (they're non negotiable), but you may get the fine lowered below the $110 and additional time to pay - one has to weigh that against the time off work to attend court unless you can arrange it for a day you'd otherwise have off anyways.

Now, on the topic of your insurance...$300 a month for a SHADOW?! That's obscene, particularly on a cruiser, at age >25 and with a clean record.

Did you insure it under your M1 and they didn't discount you after you got your M2? Did you take the MSC or just the MTO parking lot test to get your M2?

Either way, IMHO you need to call around, and do it before this ticket goes on your record - if you take the "plea guilty with an explanation" option it'll realistically be at least 3-4 months before you get officially convicted and it shows on your abstract - until then, you're innocent until proven guilty so it's technically not there. That's the window I'd use to find a better insurance company.
 
Thanks for the replies. I wasn't really planning on trying to fight it as he got me fair and square. Would have been nice if it could have answered my question instead of walking away though.

I did call around quite a bit (maybe not as much as I should have?) when I bought the bike, for some reason the 2006 model year is more expensive. I originally mistakenly thought it was a 2008 and got quotes on that and the rate was a lot less through the same brokers. I waited to insure it until I had my M2, and I did take the MSC through Niagara College. I was told by the broker that this company is more expensive to start but the rates decrease quicker. He told me 60% in the second year. I'm just afraid I will end up paying $283/month for another couple years or even worse...

Maybe I will call around.

I'm not particularly worried about my car insurance. I'm paying $68/month right now, and its gone down every year I've owned the car (8 years now). Was really hoping to keep that trend going though :(
 
PrivatePilot said:
It's a 2 point ticket plus the fine. It'll be virtually impossible to beat as unless you can prove the sign is obscured somehow or you come up with something the judge hasn't heard a million times..the charge will stick. The fact that there was apparently an officer there enforcing that sign specficically would indicate to me that there's been a problem with people just not paying attention to it, so the officer will mention the targeted enforcement and lay out his case in such a way that you won't be likely to negotiate your way out of it.
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It's a "disobey sign" ticket, not an "improper turn" ticket. IIRC "disobey sign" is no points but yes, a minor.

*EDIT* If the ticket was actually "prohibited turn; disobey sign", then it is a two point offence.
 
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JohnLeePettimore said:
I did call around quite a bit (maybe not as much as I should have?) when I bought the bike, for some reason the 2006 model year is more expensive. I originally mistakenly thought it was a 2008 and got quotes on that and the rate was a lot less through the same brokers. I waited to insure it until I had my M2, and I did take the MSC through Niagara College. I was told by the broker that this company is more expensive to start but the rates decrease quicker. He told me 60% in the second year. I'm just afraid I will end up paying $283/month for another couple years or even worse...
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Call Dalton Timmis today, ask for Andy Singh - good guy who's helped lots of new riders. I think (hope) you'll be pleasantly surprised. The only downside with potentially switching insurance companies this time of year, having started your policy in the spring of this year (Safe assumption?) is that if you cancel the existing policy you'll end up with a fairly large bill for the remainder of the policy term now because of the way motorcycle insurance is weighted towards the summer months.

I'd still get the quote and be ready to switch the second your current policy expires. If you can get it in place before that ticket goes on your record that'd work out better as well, it might be possible to delay the conviction until spring.

And yes as Rob mentioned, clarify what exactly the ticket was - points or no points?
 
My optometrist says you can beat these tickets as the font size for the time restrictions is too small for 20/20 vision.






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nakkers said:
My optometrist says you can beat these tickets as the font size for the time restrictions is too small for 20/20 vision.
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Hmmm. Interesting.
 
$300/m for shadow is a bit high IMO if you have a clean record, get quotes from other companies. Choose option 2 then talk to them to see if they can help you out and take it from there. Officers behaviour/attitude etc is not relevant info.


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Rob MacLennan said:
It's a "disobey sign" ticket, not an "improper turn" ticket. IIRC "disobey sign" is no points but yes, a minor.

*EDIT* If the ticket was actually "prohibited turn; disobey sign", then it is a two point offence.
Click to expand...


PrivatePilot said:
Call Dalton Timmis today, ask for Andy Singh - good guy who's helped lots of new riders. I think (hope) you'll be pleasantly surprised. The only downside with potentially switching insurance companies this time of year, having started your policy in the spring of this year (Safe assumption?) is that if you cancel the existing policy you'll end up with a fairly large bill for the remainder of the policy term now because of the way motorcycle insurance is weighted towards the summer months.

I'd still get the quote and be ready to switch the second your current policy expires. If you can get it in place before that ticket goes on your record that'd work out better as well, it might be possible to delay the conviction until spring.

And yes as Rob mentioned, clarify what exactly the ticket was - points or no points?
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Private Pilot... thanks I will give them a call!

Private Pilot and Rob... all the ticket says on it is "disobey sign" and under the contrary to portion it says "HTA sec. 182(2)". I see no mention of points, and again, when I asked the officer about points he didn't answer. So I really have no idea and am a little confused now.
 
JohnLeePettimore said:
Private Pilot... thanks I will give them a call!

Private Pilot and Rob... all the ticket says on it is "disobey sign" and under the contrary to portion it says "HTA sec. 182(2)". I see no mention of points, and again, when I asked the officer about points he didn't answer. So I really have no idea and am a little confused now.
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That's a two point ticket. There was a chance it could have been a city bylaw ticket, rather than a HTA ticket.
 
The officer may not have known what points are assigned to the ticket, (I certainly couldn't tell you how many points are assigned by the ministry for every HAT violation, except of course the big ones like dangerous etc).

I agree his attitude was less than stellar, but as with all of us everyone can be having a bad day, I know I used to hate getting stuck with those type of "targeted enforcement" assignments. He may have felt simply walking away was better than coming back with even more attitude...

As for the optometrist comment, the size of wording on all traffic signs is dictated by regulations, as is the color, and sizing of all signage. Has the optometrist actually "tested" this defence, in a court room? Not sure how one could state it is requires greater than 20/20 vision without knowing the distance from the sign to where it was viewed, I believe that if your required by the X classification on your driver's licence it states the corrective lenses should correct to 20/20. SO it would be interesting to see someone advise a judge that they are not required to wear corrective lenses while their vision is less than 20/20, or that they weren't wearing said lenses, when required to do so, as a condition of obtaining their licence...lol
 
If the sign had letters on it in accordance with the regulations (and it will), and the sign was within reasonable line of sight and there wasn't a tree branch or some such thing blocking your visibility of it (this can happen), I doubt if the optometrist angle will be of any help. If you present that angle then they'll counter with the sign being as prescribed by regulations and it's your problem if your glasses weren't good enough.
 
Question About "Disobey Sign" Ticket (how boned am I?)

In all honesty, I was just getting my eyes tested and it was just a conversation. I don't know if any actual charges dropped or what have you.

He said the font size is standard and doesn't take into account the height and distance the sign is displayed to read the specifics.

The sign itself has a symbol indicating no left or right turn. An arrow turning in one or the other direction with a red circle and line cross which indicates no turn.

But apparently you can argue the specifics of when you can't turn, are not legible as you approach the intersection.

I don't know the science but, I'm sure the font size is pretty standard and the intersection and sign placement varies so much that it makes some sense.

What is the expectation to be able to read the sign from a given distance? That I would say an optometrist can say.

Is it what the ministry mandates? Let's say they don't. Than maybe you have a case to argue the sign placement, distance and font size and determine if perfect 20/20 will allow the sign to be legible.

If they do, than the specs should be easy enough to find. And if the sign is posted too far from the ministry requirements to be able to read, then I think there might be room to make a case in that regard as well.

After a google search, everything was related to speed and not moving violations and signage.

So, I apologize for leading anyone astray. Not my intention. Just something to investigate further if they have the will and time. Me? I'm having a pint and playing angry birds.


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hedo2002-I agree his attitude was less than stellar, but as with all of us everyone can be having a bad day, I know I used to hate getting stuck with those type of "targeted enforcement" assignments. He may have felt simply walking away was better than coming back with even more attitude...

hedo2002-I knew you would chime in with some bogus excuse for this officer"we all have bad days,blah,blah"...Police services in the gta are plagued by unproffesional attitudes towards the public.If an officer cant do his/her job consistently, professionally,and respectfully then it is time for that person to start looking for another career.period.I've dealt with many police officers were are pure class unfortunately they seem to be in short order these days and that is a shame
 
^^^ to his point, the teenager at McDick's is more likely to get reprimanded than that very well compensated traffic enforcement specialist. If someone is incapable of presenting themselves in a positive manner when dealing with the public, regardless of personal circumstance, they shouldn't be in public service.
 
Neil_V said:
If someone is incapable of presenting themselves in a positive manner when dealing with the public, regardless of personal circumstance, they shouldn't be in public service.
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I don't necessarilly disagree, but todays reality is that if every company stuck to such a policy they wouldn't be able to fill positions to get the jobs done.

And lets not forget that it's the very same customers that sometimes turn the employees into bitter people - customers can be ********, anyone who's ever worked entry level retail will be the first to agree.

Who knows, perhaps this cop in question had just dealt with 15 people before our OP who ripped him a new orifice simply for doing his job. That would make even the most happy people grumpy and irritable after a while.
 
Again I agree, I didn't "excuse" the officer's attitude, I merely pointed out that everyone has a "bad day" at times.

So following your argument officers are not permitted to also be human beings?" If they are having a bad day, they should simply turn in their credentials and seek other employment? The scenario provided by the OP is a very tiny snap shot of that officer's day, there is nothing that indicates, this officer "can't do his/her job consistently, professionally, and respectfully" I am glad you are perfect and have never yet experienced a bad day...kudos to you, your certainly a one of a kind. I freely admit I have have had bad days, even to this day, at work, (of course I am no longer an officer).

Back to your perfect life...lol

senor guevera said:
hedo2002-I agree his attitude was less than stellar, but as with all of us everyone can be having a bad day, I know I used to hate getting stuck with those type of "targeted enforcement" assignments. He may have felt simply walking away was better than coming back with even more attitude...

hedo2002-I knew you would chime in with some bogus excuse for this officer"we all have bad days,blah,blah"...Police services in the gta are plagued by unproffesional attitudes towards the public.If an officer cant do his/her job consistently, professionally,and respectfully then it is time for that person to start looking for another career.period.I've dealt with many police officers were are pure class unfortunately they seem to be in short order these days and that is a shame
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hedo2002 said:
Again I agree, I didn't "excuse" the officer's attitude, I merely pointed out that everyone has a "bad day" at times.

So following your argument officers are not permitted to also be human beings?" If they are having a bad day, they should simply turn in their credentials and seek other employment? The scenario provided by the OP is a very tiny snap shot of that officer's day, there is nothing that indicates, this officer "can't do his/her job consistently, professionally, and respectfully" I am glad you are perfect and have never yet experienced a bad day...kudos to you, your certainly a one of a kind. I freely admit I have have had bad days, even to this day, at work, (of course I am no longer an officer).

Back to your perfect life...lol
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sounds like you think I'm full of judgement for others and am unaware of my own faults,however that is not my character at all.I'm not going to get into some long drawn out argument with you,I'd be wasting my time....
 
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