Putting down roots

bigpoppa

bigpoppa

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Not particularly fond of the GTA(toronto/peel/york) also want something affordable so im
looking at places to put down some roots away from these, depending on where I find work, am looking at places in these particular locations and wanted
to know the thoughts/opinions of GTAM on the cities. Barrie/simcoe/muskoka is covered(thank you iceman)

-Hamilton
-London
-Niagra
-Cambridge

Have some possible misconceptions about hamilton in particular, is it as rough as it looks? Has a very dilapidated rust belt vibe going on, whats it like? (for people
who have in the past or are currently living there? For raising a family etc?)

Also curious what people's thoughts on townhomes are? Freehold vs condo ownership..
Do they appreciate equally? Is it worth it dealing with maintenance fees? (I like to keep my life simple and expenses to a minimum)
Can they just jack up the fees arbitrarily? By large amounts?

Thanks!
 
bigpoppa said:
Have some possible misconceptions about hamilton in particular, is it as rough as it looks? Has a very dilapidated rust belt vibe going on, whats it like? (for people
Click to expand...

Some of those cities you've mentioned are quite large and there's great disparity between the rougher parts of town and the more affluent areas. I know a few people who live in Hamilton and the neighbourhoods they live in are quite nice and not dilapidated at all. Also, most of the city is going through a rapid gentrification, as GTA refugees seek to make the Hammer into a mini-TO, with Goji Berry Yoga Cafes on every corner (or whatever is in vogue with the Toronto Life demographic these days).

The trick is to identify an up-and-coming neighbourhood where development will increase the price of RE, relative to the rest of the city.

bigpoppa said:
Also curious what people's thoughts on townhomes are? Freehold vs condo ownership..
Do they appreciate equally? Is it worth it dealing with maintenance fees? (I like to keep my life simple and expenses to a minimum)
Can they just jack up the fees arbitrarily? By large amounts?
Click to expand...

IMO, there's only one good reason to buy into a place with strata fees: You are a young, working professional who has no time or desire to upkeep the lawn, the driveway, the roof, etc. You don't mind sharing the garage, exercise room and pool with others. You rarely spend any time at home because if you're not working, you are probably out hanging out with your other young urban professional friends in bars, clubs and expensive restaurants. You like the turn-key aspect of a strata home, where you can lock the door and take that spontaneous two-week vacation without arranging for lawn care, mail collection, etc.

You're basically paying someone else to do all that for maintenance for you, while you are busy living your best life.

Now, if your best life includes spending lots of time at home, mowing the lawn, performing home improvement, tinkering in your private garage, having exclusive use of the back yard/deck/swimming pool, then strata may not be for you.

The trick with strata is to avoid an older building, as the ongoing repairs force maintenance fees up, as well as "one-time" Special Assessment Fees to cover what the reserve fund can't. After the third or fourth Special Assessment Fee in a calendar year, they start to feel like Regular Assessment Fees...

Another caveat is that newer buildings will price their maintenance fees artificially low to entice buyers. Then after the second or third year, the fees go up dramatically to reflect the true cost of maintenance.

If you are going into strata, get a Status Certificate from the condo corporation to see how well the reserve fund is managed. What is the maintenance fee trend? Stable? Rising quickly year over year? How many SAFs have they needed to charge the owners to top up the reserve fund?

And of course, strata homes will never appreciate as fast as owning your own piece of land. And in some instances, high maintenance fees will actually eat up any capital appreciation over time. You are not really realizing any equity gains when it comes time to sell because of all the fees you have paid over that time. You'll have just lived for free basically.

Strata will make sense for a lot of people at a certain time in their life. But at a certain age, you will tire of living in and paying for a collective. The reverse can be true as well, as some young people lose their social life and carefree years because they jump into house ownership too early and are house-rich, but cash/time poor.

It's all personal.
 
Lightcycle said:
IMO, there's only one good reason to buy into a place with strata fees: You are a young, working professional who has no time or desire to upkeep the lawn, the driveway, the roof, etc. You don't mind sharing the garage, exercise room and pool with others.
Click to expand...

Sharing a garage? Hell naw.
Is this really a thing?

And I take it its only a feature of the condo townhomes?
 
There's a lot of benefits to moving out of the GTA Zoo - that's for sure. Where you will be happiest depends on what you want and where you are in life's journey. The areas you mention are already appreciating more than you may think. Lots of X-GTA'ers are making the jump so neighbourhoods are changing and there's even some push-back from established locals in terms of "those nasty GTA peeps are retiring and moving into our town now"! If you are thinking about it, just do it if you can find suitable work because it ain't gonna get any cheaper or easier later on!
Never been a fan of the "condo life". You're monthly fees are only going in one direction ^^^. You will have no control over that other than 1 vote as part of the corporation.
Owning your own property requires maintenance time. I'm in a position to have that time and enjoy doing it. You just gotta find your own comfort zone. No matter what, life outside the GTA IS better, unless you're a downtown glitz & glam kind of person.
 
bigpoppa said:
Sharing a garage? Hell naw.
Is this really a thing?

And I take it its only a feature of the condo townhomes?
Click to expand...
He was referring mostly to condo buildings, I believe.
However, stacked or urban townhouses can have shared underground parking.
And there is a very popular townhouse complex in Etobicoke off Burnhamthorpe that has shared underground parking.

I'll offer a different view on some condo townhouses:
They have some where very little maintenance is part of the deal.
ie: the lot it was built on requires private garbage pick up, so fees for that, but roof, lawn etc are all your responsibility. They are few and far between, but those are better imho.

The ONLY real warning that I personally have for a freehold townhouse is MAKE SURE YOU HAVE GARAGE OR SIDE ACCESS TO YOUR BACKYARD!

I can't stress this enough.
I've seen people fall in love with a place, buy it, then realize they have to carry a lawnmower through their house to mow both bits of grass.

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I dont know how much "social" is a value for you, moving an hour or more from your circle of friends can be a pita when you travel an hr to meet for a beer,
I'm in Hamilton a lot, the rebirth (gentrification) is just booming, the artists that moved there are being pushed out.
I've never liked Niagara, I thought st Caths was a mirror of Hamilton with meth clinics and ex GM workers, but its got sopme really nice pockets, the North end near the lake is pretty nice.
I'm in a freehold town right now, its nice enough. Joe is right I cannot access the backyard without going through the house, no grass its all hardscaped but my hot tub came with a $1245.00 crane quote. This place is 15ys old, the roof bill will be mine , not a condo... and its 3 stories I'm noit doing it, 10-12K are the quotes.
everything will be some sort of comprimise
 
Freehold vs Condo townhouses. Free hold townhouses, I find you get inconsistent care and appearance. Some will paint their garage doors ungodly colours or some won’t care for their patch of yard and it’s overgrown or whatever. Unlike the row housing in New Foundland having a rainbow of happy exterior colours. Or their idea of landscaping is crazy or some are just dumps. Some condo townhouses take care of that with their bylaws and maintenance fees so the exterior appearance is consistent throughout the complex. Take a look at property listings on realtor.ca and then do a drive by of the overall property. You’ll see the difference when it’s freehold. Individual control sounds great when it’s yourself but, when the neighbours start doing some stupid things and you look to move, you realize your property value isn’t holding because of your neighbours.

Now with the places in question.

Lived in London most of my life. It’s a university town and medial centre for southwestern ON. It’s also a hub for insurance companies outside of their main offices in Toronto. The economy is slow and steady as is the real estate growth. You won’t make out like a bandit but, you won’t lose either. Stick to the north end of town. The posh area is Byron but, there are neighborhoods in Masonville with the occasional pitfall of student housing to avoid. Avoid Whiteoaks and the south end.

Niagara - I’ve lived here 8 years. Again the north end is nice. There are other areas that is pretty nice too. Thorold, Font Hill, Niagara on-the-Lake. NoTL is where all the retirees from the GTA come to and property values are higher. It’s a sleepy quiet area with tourism making weekends a pain to residents but, the rest of the week, the place is quiet. The escarpment, lake and river make for plenty of places to hike, bike, climb, swim. And there is some pretty nice roads for riding/driving. If you have kids, the school options aren’t bad with Brock and Niagara College.

Hamilton ummm.....I’d stick with Stoney Creek or Ancaster. We have friends in both areas. Usually, our discussions involve residence envy. They wish they lived in our area and we wish we lived there. But, when we get home we realize where we are is what we prefer. The folks in Stoney Creek/Ancaster tend to go to the GTA more often than we do. I go there strictly when work calls for it and Covid has made it so, I don’t have to go very often.

The folks I know that afford to live here have different back grounds. Retail sales, trades, banking, etc.

I did a 6 year stint in Brampton (Williams Parkway and Main St area) from 2001 - 2006 and commuted to work in Etobicoke at Islington south of the 401 when there was a Labatts Brewery on the SE corner. My kids had a difficult time at school as the teachers were teaching the class often speaking Punjabi. My kids were a cultural minority in that school and didn’t find this out closer to the time we moved back to London. We have Indian friends and love the people and culture. It just wasn’t something we expected or gave any thought about until it happened.

I think the Niagara Region is a great place to settle and establish roots. There is the corridor along the lake from Fort Erie to Grimsby with a variety of living options. If you have to commute along the QEW, it can stink if there is an accident and road closure as alternate routes become parking lots themselves. But, if you can work and live in the general area, it’s not bad. My wife commutes to Burlington/Hamilton 4 days a week. If the weather sucks, she stays home.

DM me if you have any specific questions.


Cheers!

Sean


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not a big fan of that 519 area
flat, boring, not a lot of water around

Hamilton or Cambridge could be alright
the Falls? nahh

don't see any mention of east GTA?
Durham has some nice areas and it's not crazy expensive
would prolly avoid the Shwa though

as for condos
it's debatable if they even qualify as real estate
no title to the land
 
Notes on Condo fees....

Condo fees will go up, like anything else. There is also a risk that if there are reserve fund problems (unexpected large expenses or mismanagement see my note below on real estate agent...) you can also get a one time charge on top of the fees to get the books back in order. Worst I have personally seen was a 15K extra charge one year for a friend's condo. Next example, the common areas in my old condo in King West were dated (late 80s style) but were in good serviceable condition. After I left the board changed and the new members wanted it all updated to increase their property values and to increase renting $$$s, I was paying $350 a month when I left, in three years that hit $500, far faster than inflation. The condo had a very solid reserve fund but reno's cost money and enough people decided thats what they wanted.

Careful with new builds as they start out with the lowest condo fees they legally can have (it helps sell the units, low fees). Once the real world happens, they can also sky rocket.

While your lawyer will (better) get a look at the books and this should be a condition on the offer to break the deal if they are bad it also pays to have a real estate agent that KNOWS the area and the buildings. My guy back then was connected enough and sold enough to know how well each building was run in TO, how well they were built and basically told me the list of buildings he would not let me buy in.... Also saves time bidding on a unit to only fin dout a month later the reserve fund is in shambles. My friend mentioned above with the $15K one time charge, used his friend's family member as their agent, no clue, expensive lesson.

Upside, most common elements are taken care of in the fee and there is a lifestyle advantage that is also very nice. If you are not handy and have to always hire people to fix things there is also an advantage here.
 
I always though condo fees were a scam. No real data to support it (well some friends have told me stories of the condo board manipulating things for themselves), other then I just spent an hour cutting my grass and trimming and no way that cost me $250 (0.50 * 500 psf) or more a month. An hour is not a lot of time to find in a week, nor is dragging my garage to the curb.

Years ago my mom told me about a condo near us. Asked about the condo fees, they were something like $600 (older building). I was like nope. What am I getting out of that? I know there is some security everything is maintained but you have no control how to spend it or when. I don't believe it is a good trade off, some might though.
 
J_F said:
not a big fan of that 519 area
flat, boring, not a lot of water around

Hamilton or Cambridge could be alright
the Falls? nahh

don't see any mention of east GTA?
Durham has some nice areas and it's not crazy expensive
would prolly avoid the Shwa though

as for condos
it's debatable if they even qualify as real estate
no title to the land
Click to expand...

tbh I dont know much about the east, im trying to find some place that isnt as crowded and expensive as toronto/peel but is still inhabited with enough humans to provide steady work/income
 
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we know you like to ride
from Durham you are much closer to some more interesting roads

are you into boating/canoeing/camping type activities?
far better off going east if those things interest you

not much white collar work in east GTA
but it is strong for trades
 
We lived in a condo strata in our last place...never again. It is full of people that have nothing better to do with their time then fight and think they are the almighty because they're 'on the board'. I went onto the board briefly but found that people that are normal (like myself...I hope) were often outshouted and outgunned by the idiots. Think of Homer Simpson being mayor....everything for everyone with no regard to cost.

They wanted a 10% raise one year, and I refused and settled on 3% even with a healthy fund. The year before that...went up another 3-5%. We moved out because we didn't like it.

Postage stamp yard, no access except through the house and around the complex to get to my yard. But they did maintain it fairly well and the cleanliness of the place was good. Overall friendly people, but 1 time I parked sideways on my driveway because I had to, and had an angry letter the next day (anonymous). I think it was the crazy cat lady across the lane, but who knows/cares.

Now we live in a quiet pocket (except for the high rev cars/bikes on Dundas) in Credit Woodlands, and are overall very happy with the location. It's quiet, secluded, large lot, and I can't believe how happy we are in that area, never knew it existed before we went to see this house we ended up buying.
 
I would like to move out to Cali eventually, got some relatives in Sacremento and its real nice out there especially for riders year round
 
Some condo fees include things like water and basic cable as part of the cost structure. In addition to snow removal, grass upkeep and maintaining common areas.


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sburns said:
I always though condo fees were a scam. No real data to support it (well some friends have told me stories of the condo board manipulating things for themselves), other then I just spent an hour cutting my grass and trimming and no way that cost me $250 (0.50 * 500 psf) or more a month. An hour is not a lot of time to find in a week, nor is dragging my garage to the curb.

Years ago my mom told me about a condo near us. Asked about the condo fees, they were something like $600 (older building). I was like nope. What am I getting out of that? I know there is some security everything is maintained but you have no control how to spend it or when. I don't believe it is a good trade off, some might though.
Click to expand...

The condo fees cover the day to day common expenses like snow removal, landscaping, garbage BUT they also cover the maintenance, repair and replacement of all common elements via the reserve fund--in advance. So in general, roof, furnace, plumbing supply (none in unit), AC, windows, structure, building interior and exterior--all are big dollar items for home owners that cannot do their own repairs. As a home owner though you can also plan, with some luck to get in (buy) and then out (sell) before many of these items hit you, maybe. In a condo you are paying for them in advance (into the reserve) even if you leave before they are replaced. If most home owners took an honest look at future repairs and then put the money aside for these repairs (their own dedicated reserve fund) I think most would be surprised how much that is a month (easily 200 plus a month for a reasonable house), but we get to keep what is not spent when we leave! Instead we usually don't plan ahead and just dip into general savings or LOC as needed when they come up.

But as noted, it is also a lifestyle choice. Having done both and in a house now with the ability to do most of my own maint I totally get the advantages and disadvantages of both and in the future (assuming the building is well run) I would not rule out a condo in my old age.
 
Did a couple of Townhouse Condos when I was younger. Didn't like it for two reasons: 1. Lack of control over the condo fees (always going up and up). 2. Both places went downhill fast when owners started moving out and renting their places. There are some advantages in terms of maintenance I suppose but for what that costs on a monthly basis .... not worth it imo.
 
IIRC our condo fees included: insurance, snow removal, lawn care, water, roof, etc. The windows were on us and the water was on the condo up to the ball valve that shuts it off to the house. Which is great because that's the first thing that leaked when we moved in.

Our house...I wish it was $200/month average. But we are doing work that we WANT to do. Next up is the hot water tank as I'm tired of paying $15/month for a rental on an old unit. Just need to sit down and actually find out how to get out of that thing.
 
freehold vs condo on townhomes is entirely dependant on the value of the home, get over 1 mil and people care about the looks outside. You dont want tro have to take 1 when weverybody else is getting 1.2-1.4 , thats a lot of scratch. And your not renting that value to a guy doing his own oil changes in the driveway (unless you rent to me LOL)
 
I have the same stereotypical view of Hamilton, but my neice lives there and absolutely loves the place. Checkout some of the burbs as well. My daughter just bought a car from a fellow in Dundas (just on the outskirts of Hamilton) and honestly I loved the place when we were out there looking at it, and then back there a week later to pick it up - it has a really cool vibe and was nicely nestled in the hills. Reminded me a lot of some of the quaint little towns out west in the mountains.
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