Private property - un-insured drive accident

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stangn99

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Hey all,

I don't know if this is the right place for this question, but one of my tenants managed to hit the other's car on our rental property driveway. This is at a single family home in Toronto. I believe (don't have the full story yet) the basement tenant (no insurance) caused damage to the upstairs tenant's vehicle backing it in the driveway.

I'm curious what happens in this situation. Is the insured driver's only option to make a claim with their own insurance company, or try to work out a deal with the basement tenant?
 
If you go with the insurance, can you sue for the deductible in small claims court?
 
The way it was explained to me is that insurance still covers you on private property, the only issue is whether the at-fault party admits fault to their insurer (or if it can be easily determined by the adjuster). If yes, then the victim gets a not-at-fault claim. Otherwise if there is any disagreement between the parties and fault can't be 100% assigned to the perpetrator, it becomes at least a 50/50, which makes each claim at-fault. In any case, each person files the claim with their own insurer as usual, and their premiums will be affected based on the percentage fault determined by the adjusters. There are some fault-determination rules specific to private property, such as laneways, etc. But in this case if the car that got hit was parked (illegally or not), they are automatically 0% at fault.
 
Oh, I forgot about the uninsured driver. "Uninsured motorist" is included in my Desjardins policy and isn't an option I can remove, so presumably its part of basic coverage. It covers for exactly this scenario.
 
stangn99 said:
Hey all,

I don't know if this is the right place for this question, but one of my tenants managed to hit the other's car on our rental property driveway. This is at a single family home in Toronto. I believe (don't have the full story yet) the basement tenant (no insurance) caused damage to the upstairs tenant's vehicle backing it in the driveway.

I'm curious what happens in this situation. Is the insured driver's only option to make a claim with their own insurance company, or try to work out a deal with the basement tenant?
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I thought you couldn't drive a vehicle without insurance unless you owned the property. If that is correct the Tenant was illegally operating a motor vehicle. That theoretically gives the upstairs guy some leverage in how he wants it settled.

A lot would depend on the amount of the damage but it's almost impossible to do less than $500 damage to a car and $1000 more common. Is the damage livable and just take pocket money if the car is older?

If upstairs guy goes through his insurance does the insurer take it out on the downstairs guy? Charges and / or a premium hit down the road?

Settling without insurance needs cash filled pockets but if the downstairs guy can't afford insurance can he afford to fix.
 
The Insured car (upstairs?) can use their insurance to get their car repaired... and then their insurance company will attempt to recover costs from the un-insured car's owner.
IF "upstairs" wants to be NICE they can approach down stairs for direct payment (this can save the un-insured a BUNCH of dough).
IF they go through insurance, they will NEED a police report

Being "off highway" this is entirely a civil matter
 
POWERMAN said:
Why are you involved?
This is between them, no?
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I'm not directly involved. I was CC'd on the communication as an FYI.

Relax said:
The way it was explained to me is that insurance still covers you on private property, the only issue is whether the at-fault party admits fault to their insurer (or if it can be easily determined by the adjuster). If yes, then the victim gets a not-at-fault claim. Otherwise if there is any disagreement between the parties and fault can't be 100% assigned to the perpetrator, it becomes at least a 50/50, which makes each claim at-fault. In any case, each person files the claim with their own insurer as usual, and their premiums will be affected based on the percentage fault determined by the adjusters. There are some fault-determination rules specific to private property, such as laneways, etc. But in this case if the car that got hit was parked (illegally or not), they are automatically 0% at fault.
Click to expand...

The offender has admitted to causing the accident and also to not have insurance on the vehicle, and also trying to pressure the victim to use their mechanic to repair the vehicle. I suspect because they don't want a police report given they've been driving without insurance.

The victims car was parked on the driveway and the offenders car was partially on public roadway and partially on private property (driveway).
 
stangn99 said:
I'm not directly involved. I was CC'd on the communication as an FYI.



The offender has admitted to causing the accident and also to not have insurance on the vehicle, and also trying to pressure the victim to use their mechanic to repair the vehicle. I suspect because they don't want a police report given they've been driving without insurance.

The victims car was parked on the driveway and the offenders car was partially on public roadway and partially on private property (driveway).
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Moving forward, as a landlord, can you/should you have a clause in your future leases that no uninsured vehicles are allowed on the property? Assuming it became a derelict vehicle, I assume the municipality would give you the ticket as they have no relationship with the tenant.
 
GreyGhost said:
Moving forward, as a landlord, can you/should you have a clause in your future leases that no uninsured vehicles are allowed on the property? Assuming it became a derelict vehicle, I assume the municipality would give you the ticket as they have no relationship with the tenant.
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That's actually really good point and something we never thought of. We hired RE agents for both upper and lower level tenants, and will suggest they add this into their forms so our butts are covered.

Unfortunately the offender is not being nice about the situation and victim got upset (rightfully so), and finally reported this incident and notified police the vehicle is on the road without insurance. They are now investigating. The offender has been causing other issues over the past year which has made it difficult for the upstairs unit to enjoy their space. I'd like to evict the lower unit but legally don't have much options (unless we get really creative??).

We accepted the lower tenant knowing it would be slightly high-risk given single mom with low income, but also accepted her because she was a single mom with low income (to help her out). We're seeing now that helping her out was perhaps a mistake, as we may be losing excellent tenants in the upper unit.
 
stangn99 said:
That's actually really good point and something we never thought of. We hired RE agents for both upper and lower level tenants, and will suggest they add this into their forms so our butts are covered.

Unfortunately the offender is not being nice about the situation and victim got upset (rightfully so), and finally reported this incident and notified police the vehicle is on the road without insurance. They are now investigating. The offender has been causing other issues over the past year which has made it difficult for the upstairs unit to enjoy their space. I'd like to evict the lower unit but legally don't have much options (unless we get really creative??).

We accepted the lower tenant knowing it would be slightly high-risk given single mom with low income, but also accepted her because she was a single mom with low income (to help her out). We're seeing now that helping her out was perhaps a mistake, as we may be losing excellent tenants in the upper unit.
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No experience in being a land lord but there may be a benefit to having a frank discussion with your problem tenant about the behaviour overall. It could range from a simple “just want to remind all the tenants that everyone has the right to enjoy the shared spaces equally blah bla” to “hey we have been getting some complaints from the other tenants about more then one ongoing issue. While we wanted to provide you a safe and enjoyable living space despite some reservations, we don’t want to feel like you’re taking advantage of our kindness”

Some people will get the hint, others will get their feathers ruffled. Either way you’ve put them on notice. If it were me I’d probably follow up any discussion with an email “as per our conversation blah blah”. Paper trails are never a bad thing.
 
stangn99 said:
That's actually really good point and something we never thought of. We hired RE agents for both upper and lower level tenants, and will suggest they add this into their forms so our butts are covered.

Unfortunately the offender is not being nice about the situation and victim got upset (rightfully so), and finally reported this incident and notified police the vehicle is on the road without insurance. They are now investigating. The offender has been causing other issues over the past year which has made it difficult for the upstairs unit to enjoy their space. I'd like to evict the lower unit but legally don't have much options (unless we get really creative??).

We accepted the lower tenant knowing it would be slightly high-risk given single mom with low income, but also accepted her because she was a single mom with low income (to help her out). We're seeing now that helping her out was perhaps a mistake, as we may be losing excellent tenants in the upper unit.
Click to expand...

Talk to a lawyer... this incident may have have just given you a reason.
 
stangn99 said:
That's actually really good point and something we never thought of. We hired RE agents for both upper and lower level tenants, and will suggest they add this into their forms so our butts are covered.

Unfortunately the offender is not being nice about the situation and victim got upset (rightfully so), and finally reported this incident and notified police the vehicle is on the road without insurance. They are now investigating. The offender has been causing other issues over the past year which has made it difficult for the upstairs unit to enjoy their space. I'd like to evict the lower unit but legally don't have much options (unless we get really creative??).

We accepted the lower tenant knowing it would be slightly high-risk given single mom with low income, but also accepted her because she was a single mom with low income (to help her out). We're seeing now that helping her out was perhaps a mistake, as we may be losing excellent tenants in the upper unit.
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Me being mean, No good deed goes unpunished.

One wonders if there is a reason she's single again.
 
Update:

Upstairs tenant reported her to police and his own insurance. They are investigating.

Unfortunately her lifestyle and behaviour is not suitable for living in a duplex. She needs her own, private space.

We called her and offered her an option for cash for keys, which includes:
  • We'll give her back 1 month rent
  • We'll allow her to take all furniture in the unit with her, including all kitchen ware (we rented it fully furnished and stocked)
  • We'll cover the cost of packing and moving
  • She can work with our agent or hers to find a new place, and we'll cover any associated fees
  • We'll give her a lump sum of cash (probably couple of thousand) to sign an N11 form for mutual agreement to end the lease.
I spoke with quite a few people and got a presentation from a lawyer who hosted a conference. This is apparently the best approach to avoid costlier issues, wait times dealing with the landlord tenant board, or us possibly getting fined for "wrongful" eviction.

We're going to follow-up with our offer in a few days. We don't want to have to sell our property over this.
 
stangn99 said:
  • We'll give her a lump sum of cash (probably couple of thousand) to sign an N11 form for mutual agreement to end the lease.

We're going to follow-up with our offer in a few days. We don't want to have to sell our property over this.
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I'm curious on as to how much a couple of thousand will entail lol.
Say if you offer 5k - she gets smart and asks for 10-15k on top of everything you offered her to gtfo - then what?

If you decide to sell the house - wouldnt you still need to have/show proof that the new buyers have full intention of moving in there for atleast a year?
Showings are also going to be a challenge as she will most likely ask for 24 hour notice..if she keeps the place messy/smelly that will turn off a lot of people for sure lol. And that is assuming she doesnt file a case with the landlord-tenant board for some petty reason.

I remember one of the places I went to see in Hamilton - 895 Barton St E - the tenant in front was a total beeoatch. An hour before our showing (which was the first that day in the morning) she threw all sorts of garbage in the front (including but not limite to half eaten donuts, wrapped up see through garbage bags, coffe cups etc). My agent called the owner and went wtf? Within 30 mins the owner stopped by with a cleaner to clean the place up. This isnt the first time she listed it either...hopefully she was able to get rid of that tenant from the unit in front lol.
Looks like She listed it again: Check out this listing

Always tricky with these things...
I was fortunate enough to have a single lady (who had her bf move in with her without telling me) want to leave earlier than the contract ending - I was MORE than happy to oblige lol. Granted, I had to spend a small fortune renovating the place after, but still.

Hopefully all of this works out in your favour....looking forward to some good news!
 
POWERMAN said:
I'm curious on as to how much a couple of thousand will entail lol.
Say if you offer 5k - she gets smart and asks for 10-15k on top of everything you offered her to gtfo - then what?

If you decide to sell the house - wouldnt you still need to have/show proof that the new buyers have full intention of moving in there for atleast a year?
Showings are also going to be a challenge as she will most likely ask for 24 hour notice..if she keeps the place messy/smelly that will turn off a lot of people for sure lol. And that is assuming she doesnt file a case with the landlord-tenant board for some petty reason.

I remember one of the places I went to see in Hamilton - 895 Barton St E - the tenant in front was a total beeoatch. An hour before our showing (which was the first that day in the morning) she threw all sorts of garbage in the front (including but not limite to half eaten donuts, wrapped up see through garbage bags, coffe cups etc). My agent called the owner and went wtf? Within 30 mins the owner stopped by with a cleaner to clean the place up. This isnt the first time she listed it either...hopefully she was able to get rid of that tenant from the unit in front lol.
Looks like She listed it again: Check out this listing

Always tricky with these things...
I was fortunate enough to have a single lady (who had her bf move in with her without telling me) want to leave earlier than the contract ending - I was MORE than happy to oblige lol. Granted, I had to spend a small fortune renovating the place after, but still.

Hopefully all of this works out in your favour....looking forward to some good news!
Click to expand...
That ad is awesome. Paragraphs about all the renovations and rooms and kitchens but not a single picture of inside and the front facade has a big piece of exposed tyvek. Assuming it didnt come with crazy tenants, it's cheap for four dwellings though.
 
Yea - the four guys in the main unit were paying a little over 500 each for a bedroom.
Shared kitchen, 2 washrooms. Placed reeked of weed lol.

There was one lady in the basement who was nice - kept the place super clean.
When the landlord came by to clean the place up, she was afraid to knock on the door of the tenant in front to show us the unit lmao.
I told her it was ok, will think about it and get back to her XD.
 
POWERMAN said:
I'm curious on as to how much a couple of thousand will entail lol.
Say if you offer 5k - she gets smart and asks for 10-15k on top of everything you offered her to gtfo - then what?

If you decide to sell the house - wouldnt you still need to have/show proof that the new buyers have full intention of moving in there for atleast a year?
Showings are also going to be a challenge as she will most likely ask for 24 hour notice..if she keeps the place messy/smelly that will turn off a lot of people for sure lol. And that is assuming she doesnt file a case with the landlord-tenant board for some petty reason.

I remember one of the places I went to see in Hamilton - 895 Barton St E - the tenant in front was a total beeoatch. An hour before our showing (which was the first that day in the morning) she threw all sorts of garbage in the front (including but not limite to half eaten donuts, wrapped up see through garbage bags, coffe cups etc). My agent called the owner and went wtf? Within 30 mins the owner stopped by with a cleaner to clean the place up. This isnt the first time she listed it either...hopefully she was able to get rid of that tenant from the unit in front lol.
Looks like She listed it again: Check out this listing

Always tricky with these things...
I was fortunate enough to have a single lady (who had her bf move in with her without telling me) want to leave earlier than the contract ending - I was MORE than happy to oblige lol. Granted, I had to spend a small fortune renovating the place after, but still.

Hopefully all of this works out in your favour....looking forward to some good news!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the feedback.

The presentation deck from the property lawyers mentions the offer needs to be enticing ($5k to $70k). We're thinking $5k total, including last months rent, moving fees etc since it's a lower unit apartment. If she asks for more and more, we'd have no choice but to sell the property or move back in ourselves and rent out our current home. Anyone who buys this house will likely tear it down to build a new custom home, but that's not to say the house isn't well kept and updated. We've done quite a few renos and updates. It's a solid home. It's just the neighbourhood is changing and these older homes are being torn down to build 2800+sqft homes.

The system is broken because by offering "cash for keys" I'm essentially encouraging this behaviour, and the next place they rent they'll learn to do the same thing and "cash out".

I don't think this tenants intentions are bad though. I genuinely believe she's just struggling as a single, low-income parent, and there are cultural differences which aren't well suited for a shared space.

We'll see how it goes. We're hoping for the best.
 
Woah, this is unbelievable. Paying your tenant a minimum of $5000 sounds like it would negate any profit you might have made from them in the first place. Now I don't feel so bad about paying someone $1000 to "buy" my timeshare from me.
 
Relax said:
Woah, this is unbelievable. Paying your tenant a minimum of $5000 sounds like it would negate any profit you might have made from them in the first place. Now I don't feel so bad about paying someone $1000 to "buy" my timeshare from me.
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Residential tenancy system is completely broken for both sides imo. If I was to buy a property to rent out, it would either be Airbnb (obviously that has many issues too) or commercial where there is a lot less crap. Sign the lease, collect the amount or lock the doors and sell their crap to cover the rent. It's fast and simple and everyone knows the rules.
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