Possible Buy: Engine Swapped?

spray____

spray____

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Checked out a bike yesterday. It's a GSX-R 600 that's had it's engine swapped (for whatever reason) and is now a GSX-R 750.

Part of my processing for considering this bike is to call insurance and make sure this isn't going to be a nightmare. Talking to SF on the phone he basically just wanted the VIN number. I don't have it, and even if I did not sure I feel comfortable handing it over at this point. I'm looking to get some more info from the owner, but I'm hoping someone here can weigh in.

My understanding as of right now is that if everything was done properly, this bike would have to have re-registered as rebuilt. If that was done SF said they can insure pretty much the same as a standard 750 and it's no problem.

If this wasn't done right, they just dumped in the engine and didn't say anything to anyone. It'll still get insured as a 600 which is cheaper, but if anyone ever got caught they would feel the wrath of insurance, MTO, and whoever else might get involved.

So my thinking is, right now I really need to figure out if this bike was every properly recorded as rebuilt. How does one do that? Will it show on UVIP? Ownership?
 
raydowe said:
Checked out a bike yesterday. It's a GSX-R 600 that's had it's engine swapped (for whatever reason) and is now a GSX-R 750.

Part of my processing for considering this bike is to call insurance and make sure this isn't going to be a nightmare. Talking to SF on the phone he basically just wanted the VIN number. I don't have it, and even if I did not sure I feel comfortable handing it over at this point. I'm looking to get some more info from the owner, but I'm hoping someone here can weigh in.

My understanding as of right now is that if everything was done properly, this bike would have to have re-registered as rebuilt. If that was done SF said they can insure pretty much the same as a standard 750 and it's no problem.

If this wasn't done right, they just dumped in the engine and didn't say anything to anyone. It'll still get insured as a 600 which is cheaper, but if anyone ever got caught they would feel the wrath of insurance, MTO, and whoever else might get involved.

So my thinking is, right now I really need to figure out if this bike was every properly recorded as rebuilt. How does one do that? Will it show on UVIP? Ownership?
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Don't quote me, but I believe the title will show up as being "rebuilt" on the UVIP - and there should be an entry to show when it was a write off.

In my opinion, unless you are getting a throw-away price for this bike, I wouldn't do it. There are a multitude of reasons including but not limited to the competency of mechanic who did the work, insurance hassles and future re-sale value.

I would personally do the math and factor in re-sale for after you're done with it. Selling a vehicle with a re-built title is a major PITA. You would probably have to give it away as a track bike..
 
Dresden said:
Don't quote me, but I believe the title will show up as being "rebuilt" on the UVIP - and there should be an entry to show when it was a write off.

In my opinion, unless you are getting a throw-away price for this bike, I wouldn't do it. There are a multitude of reasons including but not limited to the competency of mechanic who did the work, insurance hassles and future re-sale value.

I would personally do the math and factor in re-sale for after you're done with it. Selling a vehicle with a re-built title is a major PITA. You would probably have to give it away as a track bike..
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That's fair, I'm definitely taking that into consideration.

Even if I pass on this I'm still curious what the process of doing something like this properly and how much it matters. Say I own a GSXR600 and the engine blows up. What would be involved in buying a 750 engine and installing from an insurance/ownership point of view to keep everything legit?
 
raydowe said:
Checked out a bike yesterday. It's a GSX-R 600 that's had it's engine swapped (for whatever reason) and is now a GSX-R 750.

Part of my processing for considering this bike is to call insurance and make sure this isn't going to be a nightmare. Talking to SF on the phone he basically just wanted the VIN number. I don't have it, and even if I did not sure I feel comfortable handing it over at this point. I'm looking to get some more info from the owner, but I'm hoping someone here can weigh in.

My understanding as of right now is that if everything was done properly, this bike would have to have re-registered as rebuilt. If that was done SF said they can insure pretty much the same as a standard 750 and it's no problem.

If this wasn't done right, they just dumped in the engine and didn't say anything to anyone. It'll still get insured as a 600 which is cheaper, but if anyone ever got caught they would feel the wrath of insurance, MTO, and whoever else might get involved.

So my thinking is, right now I really need to figure out if this bike was every properly recorded as rebuilt. How does one do that? Will it show on UVIP? Ownership?
Click to expand...

The owner probably just swapped out the engine. It wont show as 'rebuilt' unless its been in an accident etc.

You can insure the bike as a 600, but if something happens down the road and you make a claim they can deny your coverage as you never told them about the engine swap out of the gates.
 
infernobuster said:
The owner probably just swapped out the engine. It wont show as 'rebuilt' unless its been in an accident etc.

You can insure the bike as a 600, but if something happens down the road and you make a claim they can deny your coverage as you never told them about the engine swap out of the gates.
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That's exactly what I was thinking. Following that hypothetical situation, I have 2 questions if someone can answer them:

1) Does it need to be changed to 'rebuilt' or anything similar? I talked to someone at the MTO and she didn't seem to have much of an idea. She suggested that as long as it passes a safety inspection when (hypothetically) I buy it, it's fine. I'm not sure I believe her.

2) What if I tell them about the 750 engine up front (because I would). From the conversation I had it sounds like they'd be fine with it, althought (back to question 1) not sure if anything else needs to be done regarding paperwork to make everything legit.
 
raydowe said:
That's exactly what I was thinking. Following that hypothetical situation, I have 2 questions if someone can answer them:

1) Does it need to be changed to 'rebuilt' or anything similar? I talked to someone at the MTO and she didn't seem to have much of an idea. She suggested that as long as it passes a safety inspection when (hypothetically) I buy it, it's fine. I'm not sure I believe her.

2) What if I tell them about the 750 engine up front (because I would). From the conversation I had it sounds like they'd be fine with it, althought (back to question 1) not sure if anything else needs to be done regarding paperwork to make everything legit.
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Drop the rebuilt phrase. Its not rebuilt.

Your insurance will reflect the CC's on the bike and the fact its no longer original. You will pay (for certain) extra for having the 750 engine in the bike.
You can also have it changed on the ownership to reflect the engine size, but not sure other than telling them (MT0) how to do it.
 
"Rebuilt" only applies in the sense of being "rebuilt" after a collision repair in which the vehicle was written off. For motorcycles, MTO won't even allow this AT ALL, and the moment that word appears, that vehicle with that VIN is off the roads forever. This does NOT apply to an engine-swap situation. The word "rebuilt" in the sense that a mechanic would use it - complete teardown and reassemble - is NOT the definition of that word for MTO purposes. In other words, don't go there.

The bike has had an engine swap - that's all. It MIGHT be possible to get an insurance company to recognize this and simply insure it as a 750, given that GSXR600 and 750 are identical bikes except for the engine and related electronics. But on the other hand, the insurance company might completely refuse to recognize this possibility, and put it in the category of "modified vehicle", which pretty much translates to "uninsurable".

You need to have a frank chat with a good, knowledgeable insurance agent before you touch this bike if you want to handle it legally and above board - and recognize that even if that insurance company will insure it today, another insurance company might not want to touch it tomorrow.

Honestly ... most bikes that are in that condition, are insured as if they had the original engine ... rightly or wrongly. For that matter, most bikes that are modified in any way, are insured as the stock bikes ... rightly or wrongly. When insurance companies don't want to touch "modified vehicles", that's what happens.
 
Brian P said:
"Rebuilt" only applies in the sense of being "rebuilt" after a collision repair in which the vehicle was written off. For motorcycles, MTO won't even allow this AT ALL, and the moment that word appears, that vehicle with that VIN is off the roads forever. This does NOT apply to an engine-swap situation. The word "rebuilt" in the sense that a mechanic would use it - complete teardown and reassemble - is NOT the definition of that word for MTO purposes. In other words, don't go there.

The bike has had an engine swap - that's all. It MIGHT be possible to get an insurance company to recognize this and simply insure it as a 750, given that GSXR600 and 750 are identical bikes except for the engine and related electronics. But on the other hand, the insurance company might completely refuse to recognize this possibility, and put it in the category of "modified vehicle", which pretty much translates to "uninsurable".

You need to have a frank chat with a good, knowledgeable insurance agent before you touch this bike if you want to handle it legally and above board - and recognize that even if that insurance company will insure it today, another insurance company might not want to touch it tomorrow.

Honestly ... most bikes that are in that condition, are insured as if they had the original engine ... rightly or wrongly. For that matter, most bikes that are modified in any way, are insured as the stock bikes ... rightly or wrongly. When insurance companies don't want to touch "modified vehicles", that's what happens.
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Thank you! That is exactly the info I was looking for.

The idea of next year having no insurance company wanting to touch it is the most worrying for me. I'm planning to keep my next bike for a few years, and with SS insurance disappearing even for stock bikes, this doesn't seem like a good situation to be in.

It's starting to sound like way more trouble than it's worth...
 
raydowe said:
Thank you! That is exactly the info I was looking for.

The idea of next year having no insurance company wanting to touch it is the most worrying for me. I'm planning to keep my next bike for a few years, and with SS insurance disappearing even for stock bikes, this doesn't seem like a good situation to be in.

It's starting to sound like way more trouble than it's worth...
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" I plan on keeping my SS for a while"

says every single guy who buys an SS and then proceeds to sell it after a season or two for a different bike. LOL




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
just my .02

Dont tell them ****. they rape you for your money, do everything you can to keep that dollar in your pocket. if you DO get into a claim situation, keep your mouth shut, say nothing about the engine swap as YOU didnt do it you can plead ignorance. after all. are you a mechanic and did you pull the motor apart and measure the piston bores to see what cc it is? no. Plausable that you had no idea, you just bought a gsxr600 as far as you could be expected to know.

HOWEVER. if you are going to go the honest route (why you would is beyond me, they arnt honest with you and will do everything to get out of a claim anyhow. Lets face it, your always going to be the criminal in the situation because your on an SS) but if you were to tell them the truth. This is how a call for an insurance quote goes.

Hi my name is x, I want a quote.
ok x whats your address, postal code, age, dob, licence number.
*you give*
ok what kind of bike is it?
suzuki GSXR *model year*
what cc's?
750
ok sir this is your quote. Thank-you.




But I also agree. its probably more trouble than its worth. and its a gixxer. not worth any trouble anyway
 
Kyle said:
just my .02

Dont tell them ****. they rape you for your money, do everything you can to keep that dollar in your pocket. if you DO get into a claim situation, keep your mouth shut, say nothing about the engine swap as YOU didnt do it you can plead ignorance. after all. are you a mechanic and did you pull the motor apart and measure the piston bores to see what cc it is? no. Plausable that you had no idea, you just bought a gsxr600 as far as you could be expected to know.

HOWEVER. if you are going to go the honest route (why you would is beyond me, they arnt honest with you and will do everything to get out of a claim anyhow. Lets face it, your always going to be the criminal in the situation because your on an SS) but if you were to tell them the truth. This is how a call for an insurance quote goes.

Hi my name is x, I want a quote.
ok x whats your address, postal code, age, dob, licence number.
*you give*
ok what kind of bike is it?
suzuki GSXR *model year*
what cc's?
750
ok sir this is your quote. Thank-you.
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I'm not judging anyone who goes down that road, but its not something I want to do.

As for the second option, I think that all falls apart when you get it insured. I get a quote for a 750 and say "sounds good". They'll ask for a Vin, and I'll give them one and it'll show up as a 600. Then they start asking questions I can't answer...

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
 
you are 100% correct, the vin may show as a 600 BUT you DID tell them it had 750 cc's and they will run the vin and compare what you told them to the vin and make sure it all meshes. but in the end you did tell them. Also someone already said it. the 600 and 750 are the same bike. so they probably wont even have an issue insuring it as is. on the brokers/agents end they will put the vin on the policy and when they call they plug it into the computer quoting program it will just spit out a number or flag it to the UR's when the policy is sold to you. either way I am the first to say insurance companys are scum and are impossable to work with, but chances are Im willing to bet it wouldnt even catch the bat of an eye when you call them and give them the vin and tell them the cc's is 750.

Just dont give them more info than they need it confuses them. Just like at the mto, your asking questions thats above there education. they just get taught how to do abc. Yes there is xyz but they dont know how to do it and never will nore will any of the other's because they dont get taught that. Dont hold back the info that the bikes CC's are 750, but dont start telling them the thread pitch of every bolt either. K.I.S.S, and you will be fine
 
When I call for quotes, they ask the bike model then ask how many CC. I think if you tell them it is a GSXR 600, 750cc, that you would be ok.
 
I'm with Kyle, I'd keep my mouth shut lol. I considered a swap from a 400 to 500 in my GS, but it wasn't worth the fab effort. I've heard of people going from 883 to 1200 on their sportsters, since only the top end needs replacing, again, without telling insurance.

I mean, really, you're supposed to tell your insurance when you change sprockets, because hey, that changes the power dynamics, and therefore the risk. Get a stickler, and you'll be paying some crazy custom insurance.
 
if you are telling them its got a 750cc motor just buy one with a 750cc vin. this is a very common swap and hardly ever is it registered as a 750cc.
the whole point to this swap is the cheaper insurance vin.
what year is the bike and how many km on the frame?

drumstyx said:
I'm with Kyle, I'd keep my mouth shut lol. I considered a swap from a 400 to 500 in my GS, but it wasn't worth the fab effort. I've heard of people going from 883 to 1200 on their sportsters, since only the top end needs replacing, again, without telling insurance.

I mean, really, you're supposed to tell your insurance when you change sprockets, because hey, that changes the power dynamics, and therefore the risk. Get a stickler, and you'll be paying some crazy custom insurance.
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insanely cheap to do on the sportster... its like $300 for the parts, they call it a jug kit and if you have a 07+ and switch to the 1250 bore and you can throw on the dual spark plug heads.

i think yer suppose to tell your insurance everymod you do technically..but i know SF doesnt care about any cosmetic changes to the bike, really all it does is attract cops, SF only care about power mods....my bike is stock.....:cool:
 
EaZ8 said:
if you are telling them its got a 750cc motor just buy one with a 750cc vin. this is a very common swap and hardly ever is it registered as a 750cc.
the whole point to this swap is the cheaper insurance vin.
what year is the bike and how many km on the frame?


insanely cheap to do on the sportster... its like $300 for the parts, they call it a jug kit and if you have a 07+ and switch to the 1250 bore and you can throw on the dual spark plug heads.

i think yer suppose to tell your insurance everymod you do technically..but i know SF doesnt care about any cosmetic changes to the bike, really all it does is attract cops, SF only care about power mods....my bike is stock.....:cool:
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I agree with this, Statefarm does not seam to care about cosmetic mods. I had a 05zx10R that was fully caged, windsheild was cut down, licenceplate was hidden, entire bike was flat blacked with smoked head and tail lights and HID's smoked windscreen levers ext and It was taken to the agent for pictures like that and they dident care. When questioned about the reasoning for the cage on the bike they were told because it was more protection not only if I went down the bike wouldnt be destroyed but that if It was knocked over in a parkinglot or something I would just pick it up and drive away as apposed to someone with sliders or nothing at all having to do major fixing. Its just protecting my purchase. They didnt care, said it made sense. And in all honesty, the cage was onlyt to protect the bike from the events described at the time I had no intrest in trying to actually stunt a 1000 as it was just too much power to make a lot stunter out of. Now I want to make it a drift bike tho <3
 
In what situation would they ever dismantle the engine after an accident to check the bore... Never. The frame gets scratched and the company writes he bike off ffs.

What are the chances of this ever being an issue, insurance wise, if you keep your mouth shut. Virtually zero.

I don't even think these bikes have the CCs on the cylinder anymore do they?

#nannystate
 
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