Pleading Guilty in Court to a Reduced Ticket

[backmarkerducati]

Entirely hypothetical but some of the recent threads has got me wondering something regarding reduced tickets:

-You are given a speeding ticket that has a reduced speed and is marked with a R.
-The officer of course tells you (cough bullies you) that if you fight it you will be charged with the higher "real" speed.
-You decide to fight it playing the usual game, hope for charter challenge based on trial date, hope for disclosure/discovery failure, hope for a officer no-show....
-On the court date none of the above plays out in your favour (the date was less than a year, the crown provides full disclosure/discovery and the the cop is in the court room, etc.) so...
-When the crown calls you up pre-trial you tell them you are pleading guilty (to the speed on the ticket, as long as it is the speed on the ticket) and of course you plead guilty when called in front of the JP to the speed on the ticket (being clear speed on the ticket)... Now the questions:

Does the crown have an option (or even the ability procedurally) to raise the speed to the higher number given that you have pleaded guilty to the original charge (speed on the ticket), you just decided to do so in court?

Even if they have a procedural method to raise the speed will they given that you are pleading guilty to the ticketed speed, not guilty if it is the higher number? They will be wasting the court's time to get the higher number (trial) and even though it is unlikely they may even lose. Will the JP be thoroughly unimpressed with the crown because you are willing to plead guilty to the speed on the ticket and now the crown is wasting their time by forcing a trial? So why take the chance, just take the easy win?

What I am thinking here is, go to court, play the game. You know when you walk in the court room if you have a shot or not. No shot just plead guilty...

What is everyone's opinion (work or fail) or better yet who has actually done this and what were the results?

 

[Metastable]

More likely than not, if you just go the crown before the trial proceedings begin for that day, and you ask for the speed on the ticket, they will give it to you. No worries on that one. You can even try to lower it even more.... and see what they say.... they might be OK with that too. However, they can raise if you decide to fight it full out.

Question is -> Can a competent Trial Lawyer or someone like Redline get you off of the ticket completely? Does the difference in the speed really mean anything in the long run if you plea? Usually it won't.... so you might as well fight the fight, until they decide to stop having the insurance companies (private businesses) being the main source of the penalty. IMO that is a conflict of interest.... plus honestly, I wouldn't even bother fighting tickets if it wasn't going to affect my insurance rates.... I'd just pay them off.

 

[backmarkerducati]

More likely than not, if you just go the crown before the trial proceedings begin for that day, and you ask for the speed on the ticket, they will give it to you. No worries on that one. You can even try to lower it even more.... and see what they say.... they might be OK with that too. However, they can raise if you decide to fight it full out.

Question is -> Can a competent Trial Lawyer or someone like Redline get you off of the ticket completely? Does the difference in the speed really mean anything in the long run if you plea? Usually it won't.... so you might as well fight the fight, until they decide to stop having the insurance companies (private businesses) being the main source of the penalty. IMO that is a conflict of interest.... plus honestly, I wouldn't even bother fighting tickets if it wasn't going to affect my insurance rates.... I'd just pay them off.

Not familiar with Redline but I have watched all the other guys in court and all they do is plead people down or hope the cop does not show. My last trip to court everyone on the docket had a trial date of 1 year of more and the ticket fighting guys were pleading people down, the only cases won were cop no shows, not one charter motion (other than mine)! They ripped some people off that day.

 

[jay-d]

Not familiar with Redline but I have watched all the other guys in court and all they do is plead people down or hope the cop does not show. My last trip to court everyone on the docket had a trial date of 1 year of more and the ticket fighting guys were pleading people down, the only cases won were cop no shows, not one charter motion (other than mine)! They ripped some people off that day.

An 11B has to filed about two weeks before the trial date.. you can't motion it in court on the court date. There's a procedure you gotta follow or something.

 

[FiReSTaRT]

An 11B has to filed about two weeks before the trial date.. you can't motion it in court on the court date. There's a procedure you gotta follow or something.

Technically, closer to 5 weeks, but there has been new case law that allowed for constitutional issues to be raised at trial (at least for disclosure). I'd still file 5 weeks in advance to be safe. If you request and get a detailed disclosure package, you should examine it carefully to see if there are any weaknesses in Crown's case. You owe it to yourself and to other drivers to test the Crown's case in court. Pleading = losing, so the only way you can actually win is to go out there and dispute your charges.

Redline is the only reputable service that I know of and if you tell them that you wanna go for broke, they will do it for you. They cost a few extra bucks, but they're worth it.

 

[gixxeranyone]

I guess been throught the exact scenario OP describe:

I was clocked going 26 over, cop reduced it down to 10 over. At first, I even thought about just paying the ticket off because it was peanuts. But then I woke up and fought it. I went to court, lined up waiting to speak to the crown. When i got up to her, she looked at her notes and said, your ticket was already reduced. I said, I know but it there anything else you can do. She said "no". She then said, if the cop shows do you want to plead guilty. I said "yes". Cop never showed.

I think the majority of these situations play out exactly how OP and I described. However, OP brings up a good point. What if, the crown is just a complete prick, can they not allow you to plead guilty to the original fine? I suspect there is a lot discretion given to the crown and if he/she has not gotten laid in awhile, you might end up being the one who gets screwed.

 

[FiReSTaRT]

You have to look at it as a risk vs reward thing. So you may risk about $100, but by taking your chances, you can easily save yourself $1000 over 3 years. If you reviewed the evidence in the disclosure and are also able to raise some Charter issues, you have a better than 10% chance of winning even if you have a disclosure package (almost never complete) and the cop showed up.

 

[Metastable]

I guess the Crown could be a prick, but chances are they just want to get out of the court room as fast as possible, so if they can get an easy conviction..... then why not? Why would they bother raising things to the original fine?

BTW Redline did win one for me on 11b. It was only the first part of the defense. I actually had a very solid case anyway, because I know the cop didn't use a radar gun, his notes were written after I asked for disclosure, so the speed on there was one we never discussed before. He even used a different pen between writing the ticket and writing the notes. He obviously was full of crap..... plus I saw him hand out his next ticket without ever using a speed measuring device. He just handed me my ticket, looked up and waved the next car next to me.... it took him about 15 seconds (I'm not kidding), between giving me the ticket and having the next car stopped beside me. So I knew he:
- Was guessing speed
- Wasn't taking notes
- He lied on the disclosure notes

Most cops are good.... I have friends who are cops, but some are crooked..... and you might as well fight the tickets, because you never know who you are going to get next.

 

[MarcosSantiago]

Does the crown have an option (or even the ability procedurally) to raise the speed to the higher number given that you have pleaded guilty to the original charge (speed on the ticket), you just decided to do so in court?

Justices of the Peace or Judges (the court) can amend the ticket back to the original speed
But the crown doesn't have the power to change it, but they can always request the court to amend it if they think it would serve justice.

And Justices of the Peace or Judges (the court) can only amend the ticket after taking into account "Considerations on amendment" Section 34 (4)

 

[Brian P]

In other words, raising the speed back up to what was originally measured is only going to happen if you take it to trial. Won't happen in a plea deal, which is what is happening when you are talking to the prosecutor beforehand.

You still have nothing to lose aside from some time and aggravation by opting to fight the ticket. If the cop is a no-show, you win. If the crown has everything in order, you negotiate what you can beforehand so that there is no real "trial". You've still won by delaying the implications on your drivers license.

 

[afong56]

In other words, raising the speed back up to what was originally measured is only going to happen if you take it to trial. Won't happen in a plea deal, which is what is happening when you are talking to the prosecutor beforehand.

You still have nothing to lose aside from some time and aggravation by opting to fight the ticket. If the cop is a no-show, you win. If the crown has everything in order, you negotiate what you can beforehand so that there is no real "trial". You've still won by delaying the implications on your drivers license.

if you're like the op and already at a reduced 10 over, no points, i can't really see what can be negotiated beforehand?