not sure need advice

zodiac

zodiac

Member
i have a 07 cbr 1k
full exhaust / bmc air filter

i had a bazzaza tuner on it and got it tuned at the dyno by someone who i was told knew what they were doing. bike had 12.8 - 13.6 afr and was tunned for decent power, later on in the riding year i noticed my headers would be glowing red at idle stopped and if you reved the bike up in neutral to like 3k they would glow hotter.
i just took that system out and put in a pcv with auto tune and fired the bike up yesterday got the bike up to running temp and let it idle @ idle the wide back says 16-17 afr not sure if thats a little high at idle or not? now here is the weird part if i rev the engine up to 3k the first 2 headers from left to right are glowing read and the other 2 are just starting heat up like a dull red. watch the laptop at 3k the pcv is adjusting and the afr is trying for 13.2

any ideas or input?

thanks
 
If it has auto-tune with a 02 sensor it should be able to find its happy medium.
 
zodiac said:
i have a 07 cbr 1k
full exhaust / bmc air filter

i had a bazzaza tuner on it and got it tuned at the dyno by someone who i was told knew what they were doing. bike had 12.8 - 13.6 afr and was tunned for decent power, later on in the riding year i noticed my headers would be glowing red at idle stopped and if you reved the bike up in neutral to like 3k they would glow hotter.
i just took that system out and put in a pcv with auto tune and fired the bike up yesterday got the bike up to running temp and let it idle @ idle the wide back says 16-17 afr not sure if thats a little high at idle or not? now here is the weird part if i rev the engine up to 3k the first 2 headers from left to right are glowing read and the other 2 are just starting heat up like a dull red. watch the laptop at 3k the pcv is adjusting and the afr is trying for 13.2

any ideas or input?

thanks
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I've seen a lot of tuning issues that originate from poor condition of air filter and exhaust leaks causing confusion at 02 sensors. Be sure that these aren't affecting your bike. Header pipes can glow red as a bike sits around at idle. Generally, someone with a dyno and an ega should be able to get the bike very close to ideal tune. Depending on the software and process they use, they will find any existing problems also. Auto tune has mixed reviews and you need to realize that it is a fuel trim system that takes a number of uses to dial your map. If you are having throttle response issues i'd look at exhaust and air filters first.
 
zodiac said:
watch the laptop at 3k the pcv is adjusting and the afr is trying for 13.2
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Post up the AFR map you're using in your PCV/autotune. 17 at idle is pretty lean/scary but it could be a false reading due to fresh air inversion (either from a leak or from the O2 sensor being in close proximity to the end of the exhaust). Sometimes autotune is not able to tune the idle AFR due to this (as well as part throttle sometimes too).

Post up your AFR and your TRIM map (or just upload the map downloaded fresh from your PCV to somewhere like http://www.freefilehosting.net and post the link).

-Jamie M.
 
the auto tune map is set up for 13.2 and has zero value in the 2% and 5% range

my base map was from power commander website - the akrapovic with stock or aftermarket system and figure i would use the auto tune from there
I dont have many miles yet on the bike yet with the pcv

filter is clean
exhaust is on tight
 
zodiac said:
the auto tune map is set up for 13.2 and has zero value in the 2% and 5% range

my base map was from power commander website - the akrapovic with stock or aftermarket system and figure i would use the auto tune from there
I dont have many miles yet on the bike yet with the pcv
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I assume this is the map you're using M16-022-024?

The AFR map looks good:

07_cbr1k_afr.png


The FUEL map is pretty insane, almost 40% more fuel at wide open throttle?? Never ever seen adjustments that high:

07_cbr1k_fuel.png


What I would do is put 13.2 in the AFR map 0% column from 500RPM to about 2250RPM and see if it's able to get your idle AFR to a reasonable level. If your bikes idle starts to fluctuate or stalls out due to over fueling, it means it's not reading the real AFR at idle and it's dumping in too much fuel to compensate for a problem that isn't there.

I would be REALLY interested to see your TRIM map after a wide open throttle run over 10k RPM!

-Jamie M.
 
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There is no way that's right.

Question to OP: Is the air suction/injection system disabled? This is the device that allows extra air into the exhaust - the gizmo on top of the valve cover with hoses leading into / through the valve cover itself. If this device is active, you are going to get a false lean indication (and the unburned fuel in the exhaust will add heat and make the exhaust pipe glow ! ! !). Plug the hose leading to this device (both the hose leading into the gizmo, and the opening in the airbox that feeds it) while doing all measurement and calibration.

Then ... There is no need to be running 13.2 air/fuel ratio at part load. That air/fuel ratio is fine with high load on the engine for maximum power output, but at part throttle (when the rider is not asking for maximum power anyway) you can lean it out. You are never going to burn a hole in a piston or an exhaust valve when the engine is running at a fraction of rated power - the heat loading is simply not there. You are never going to get detonation when the engine is running at light load, either.

Most spark ignition gasoline engines will have best BSFC (brake specific fuel consumption) with the air/fuel ratio somewhere near 16.2:1 (about 10% excess air) and this is around 10% short of lean misfire which is usually at around 18:1.

But ... I do not think the auto-tuning function will allow this. (I do my mapping manually with a good old-fashioned gauge.) And, I don't have experience with Bazzaz but I do with Power Commander, and the issue is that the interpolation between map points stinks, and available increments of throttle position don't give fine enough resolution to accurately achieve 16.2:1, and the mapping inside the engine ECU is far from perfect with regards to temperature compensation, so in reality you need more than a 10% margin below lean misfire. I have part throttle on mine so that the gauge reads 15-something to 16-low-something most of the time throughout the steady cruise region (10% throttle and below, 2500 rpm on up), and if there's the occasional excursion into the 16-mid-something range, it's no big deal.

With "lean cruise" properly set up, fuel consumption and range will be better, the engine will get much less carbon build-up inside, there will be less tendency to get fuel contamination of the engine oil, and less wash-down of the cylinder walls.

Some engines will happily idle lean, others won't. My FZR400 will (carburetors - but same concept applies), my stock ZX10R wouldn't idle smoothly leaner than mid-13's but the same engine with high compression pistons and bigger cams idles happily at 16ish air/fuel ...
 
Brian P said:
air/fuel ratio somewhere near 16.2:1... But ... I do not think the auto-tuning function will allow this.
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Correct, the Autotune will disable itself if you set the target AFR at 15 or anything over.

-Jamie M.
 
toysareforboys said:
Correct, the Autotune will disable itself if you set the target AFR at 15 or anything over.
Click to expand...
I had been meaning to e-mail Dynojet about this, figuring there must be people wanting to squeeze some extra fuel economy out of their rides. Damn he replies fast :)

Dusty@DynoJet said:
The attached firmware should get it to 16. Any higher and I need you to send me your PCV and I'll reprogram it to allow up to 17.
Click to expand...
Nice!

-Jamie M.
 
^ 16:1 at lean cruise is good enough ... there's not enough difference in BSFC between 16.0 and 16.2 to make it worthwhile.

Only at 10% throttle position and below for this sort of thing ...
 
Brian P said:
^ 16:1 at lean cruise is good enough ... there's not enough difference in BSFC between 16.0 and 16.2 to make it worthwhile.

Only at 10% throttle position and below for this sort of thing ...
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Alright, I'll give er a go and see how she does :)

Should I still limit the autotune to -20% or you think it's gonna have to pull more out to get 16 at 10% throttle?

-Jamie M.
 
When leaning out, it's always best to go in baby steps ... The map for my otherwise-stock ZX10R took more than 30% out in some regions of the map, but don't jump all the way there in one go!
 
Brian P said:
When leaning out, it's always best to go in baby steps ... The map for my otherwise-stock ZX10R took more than 30% out in some regions of the map, but don't jump all the way there in one go!
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Hey Brian :)

I got Dynojet to e-mail me custom firmware for my PCV/Autotune, so there are no more restrictions on the target AFR :D

I set it to 16:1 for 5% throttle and 15:1 for 10% throttle. My fuel light usually comes on around 190 to 195km and last night it came on at 231km's!!! insane fuel economy that's for sure :D but at 16:1 you can hear what I like to call a "warble" in the exhaust note. Of course at 15:1 and 16:1 the throttle is pretty twitchy but I consider it good practice for smooth throttle control
throttle.gif


If you check out my video from last night you can hear the exhaust sound I'm taking about, around the 28:00 mark is clear but does it all through the video, any time I'm at 5% throttle under say 5000rpm ;)

[video=youtube;y9gfxv6d8xk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9gfxv6d8xk[/video]
(click the DVP exit button to get close to where I'm talking about).

Is that a misfire? Do you think 16 is a little too lean, I might get better economy at a little richer setting as long as it's not doing that warble sound? The bike is still smooth, doesn't surge, etc. You can't even feel the warbles in the bike, you can just hear them.

-Jamie M.
 
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What is it set to for 2% throttle? The Power Commander's interpolation between cells leaves something to be desired. Also, at low revs, your engine is not "on the pipe" and the exhaust system could be causing reversion (exhaust contaminating the next intake charge) which will lead to an irregular misfire. It might need a smidge more fuel in that area of the map to cover this up. If it seems to be otherwise running okay, it shouldn't take much.

My ZX10R would not idle lean in stock form - but now, with high compression pistons, thin head gasket, and Web camshafts, it's quite happy to do so. My theory is that the higher compression leaves less room for exhaust to contaminate the next charge, and it's creating conditions more favorable for ignition.
 
Brian P said:
What is it set to for 2% throttle? The Power Commander's interpolation between cells leaves something to be desired. Also, at low revs, your engine is not "on the pipe" and the exhaust system could be causing reversion (exhaust contaminating the next intake charge) which will lead to an irregular misfire. It might need a smidge more fuel in that area of the map to cover this up. If it seems to be otherwise running okay, it shouldn't take much.

My ZX10R would not idle lean in stock form - but now, with high compression pistons, thin head gasket, and Web camshafts, it's quite happy to do so. My theory is that the higher compression leaves less room for exhaust to contaminate the next charge, and it's creating conditions more favorable for ignition.
Click to expand...
I read a problem where on 07/08 R1's the 2% column wasn't realiable to use with Autotune due to fresh air inversion or too much "puff puff puff" of exhaust, not smooth flow, so my 2% column in the AFR map is 0 (disabled), zero's in the fuel map too (stock ECU fueling). I used my multimeter on logging mode connected to my TVS (I think that's what it's called, like TPS but it's the fly by wire throttle plate position sensor), and my bike is never ever at 2%, cruising around town it's 5% to 7% and on the highway is 8% (100kph) to 11% (135kph) (confirmed by driving around with my laptop connected to the PCV running screen capture software), so I didn't care much about trying anything in 2%.

I'll bump it down to say 15.8 and keep going richer to see where exactly it starts to "warble", I know it never did it at 15:1. Once I find the sweet spot I'll leave it at that and see if my fuel economy is better or worse than it is at 16:1 (did 223km's on a tank today, group ride so wasn't being very easy on it ;)). Loving this autotune ish :D

My bike is going in for a valve STEM inspection so I might have em drop two skinny gaskets on (one head one block) to bump the compression a bit, see how it goes
throttle.gif


Thanks for all the information Brian!!

-Jamie M.
 
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