M2 Zero Tolerance and a G License | GTAMotorcycle.com

M2 Zero Tolerance and a G License

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stevenwashere12

Member
Hey guys,

So I just wanted to look into something that I was told while at my riders training class.

Understandably there is a 0 blood alcohol level rule with an M2 license, however with a G license and being over 21, you have the standard .05/.08 rule. During my riders training though I was told that because your licenses are attached, with an M2 you have a 0 tolerance rule regardless if you're on the bike or in the car. Does anyone know if there's any truth to that?

It really doesn't affect me as I'm not much a drinker, and will never drink before getting on the bike, but it is good to know if that is that case. Would hate to see a beer at dinner cost someone their riding/driving.
 
Seeing as you have a motorcycle learners permit we are not going to allow you to have any alcohol in your blood stream, but if you were Only qualified to drive a car you could drive half corked :/ does that seem like reasonable logic to anyone? If it sounds wrong then it probably is wrong. Good call on not drinking and attempting to function afterwards, alcohol makes people stupid.
 
stevenwashere12 said:
Hey guys,

So I just wanted to look into something that I was told while at my riders training class.

Understandably there is a 0 blood alcohol level rule with an M2 license, however with a G license and being over 21, you have the standard .05/.08 rule. During my riders training though I was told that because your licenses are attached, with an M2 you have a 0 tolerance rule regardless if you're on the bike or in the car. Does anyone know if there's any truth to that?

It really doesn't affect me as I'm not much a drinker, and will never drink before getting on the bike, but it is good to know if that is that case. Would hate to see a beer at dinner cost someone their riding/driving.
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Correct, was advised at Service Ontario, when I was there with a friend getting his M2, for some reason even if you have had your G licence for decades, (as was the case for him), this restriction applies even while operating a motor vehicle, with your G licence. He refused to accept that, so he called the MTO in Kingston and was advised that the information was 100% accurate.
 
hmmm i guess how it's applied depends on the officer, as usual...

came back from a friend's place when i had my m2, i'd had 2 guinesses over the course of the evening and it was late'o'clock.

at my house's exit there was a RIDE check, told them i had 2 guinesses since dinner time (as he was looking at my license) and he told me "Guiness!? Pfft those things have barely any alcohol in them" and let me go.
 
There was no way that this is legitimate based on several realities.

M1 license also restricts driving at night, but you don’t magically lose that ability on the other classes of license you hold when you get an M1.

It also restricts driving on any 400 series highway, an ability you don’t lose on any other class of licence you hold.

Any licence class other than a full class A is also restricted from pulling double trailers, however just because I hold a class G, D, C, and M doesn’t mean I am restricted from pulling them with my class A.

There’s lots of license classes that have certain restrictions but they don’t transpose themselves onto other license classes one may also hold.
 
Perhaps the situation is what a co-worker once told me (concerning a different interpretation issue): No one has yet done us the public service of getting charged under these circumstances and taken it to court yet.
 
PrivatePilot said:
There was no way that this is legitimate based on several realities.

M1 license also restricts driving at night, but you don’t magically lose that ability on the other classes of license you hold when you get an M1.

It also restricts driving on any 400 series highway, an ability you don’t lose on any other class of licence you hold.

Any licence class other than a full class A is also restricted from pulling double trailers, however just because I hold a class G, D, C, and M doesn’t mean I am restricted from pulling them with my class A.

There’s lots of license classes that have certain restrictions but they don’t transpose themselves onto other license classes one may also hold.
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Hedo stated the law. If you get suspended license on your bike for bad behavior your A is gone as well.
 
gsxr guy said:
Hedo stated the law. If you get suspended license on your bike for bad behavior your A is gone as well.
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Bunk. I strongly suspect it's exactly like Brian stated above - nobody has challenged the charge yet because AFAIK I don't think anyone has ever actually BEEN charged along those lines accordingly.

There's no way that someone who goes and writes their M1 licence tomorrow can suddenly not drive their G licence vehicles at night or on the 401 anymore.

And if they're going to try to say that they are going to pick and choose what restrictions they want to enforce (IE, you can drive your car on the 401 and at night with an GM1 class licence, but you can't have even a 0.01BAC while driving your car any time of day) I'm fairly confident the courts would throw that out in short order since this is not clearly laid specified anywhere beyond heresay and rumour

It's been my experience that many people at the MTO can't find their own *** with both hands and rarely give the same answer twice so forgive me if I don't take someone on a phone as gospel to the laws.

Someone, somewhere, will eventually take this to court...and as long as they called someone better than Saul, they will certainly get it tossed.

FWIW I'm not advocating drinking and driving here in any fashion, I'm just saying that the laws can't be selectively applied. If indeed they want to say that M1 restrictions apply universally to anyone and everyone regardless of their experience or licence class there's gonna be some major **** hitting the fan when people like me who rely on their licence for work suddenly find themselves suspended for 60 days (the minimum before you're even eligible for the M2 test) because their licence is effectively invalidated.
 
Re read and try to comprehend what I stated. Where did I state that ALL restrictions from an M1 or M2 transfer to your G licence. I stated that it was in regards to the zero tolerance for alcohol. Yes you can pull a double trailer, (IF permitted with other restrictions, IE weight class of vehicle and trailers etc in a vehicle with say a D classification, (again IF it meets the requirements), BECAUSE you also have the A licence. However, you can't hook up 2 52' semi trailers to your F150, and go hauling them down the highway....lol

You may choose to ignore the fact, that doesn't mean that it isn't a fact. Your more than welcome to call MTO in Kingston to verify.

PrivatePilot said:
Bunk. I strongly suspect it's exactly like Brian stated above - nobody has challenged the charge yet because AFAIK I don't think anyone has ever actually BEEN charged along those lines accordingly.

There's no way that someone who goes and writes their M1 licence tomorrow can suddenly not drive their G licence vehicles at night or on the 401 anymore.

And if they're going to try to say that they are going to pick and choose what restrictions they want to enforce (IE, you can drive your car on the 401 and at night with an GM1 class licence, but you can't have even a 0.01BAC while driving your car any time of day) I'm fairly confident the courts would throw that out in short order since this is not clearly laid specified anywhere beyond heresay and rumour

It's been my experience that many people at the MTO can't find their own *** with both hands and rarely give the same answer twice so forgive me if I don't take someone on a phone as gospel to the laws.

Someone, somewhere, will eventually take this to court...and as long as they called someone better than Saul, they will certainly get it tossed.

FWIW I'm not advocating drinking and driving here in any fashion, I'm just saying that the laws can't be selectively applied. If indeed they want to say that M1 restrictions apply universally to anyone and everyone regardless of their experience or licence class there's gonna be some major **** hitting the fan when people like me who rely on their licence for work suddenly find themselves suspended for 60 days (the minimum before you're even eligible for the M2 test) because their licence is effectively invalidated.
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LePhillou said:
hmmm i guess how it's applied depends on the officer, as usual...
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Absolutely correct.
One of my fellow safety course instructors is an officer with Peel region. If you're rude and belligerent to him, he'll nail you for the 0% alcohol infraction if you're driving your car with a full G and M2.
Remember, you're always limited by the LOWEST CLASS of endorsement on your license.
 
BigEvilDoer said:
Remember, you're always limited by the LOWEST CLASS of endorsement on your license.
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Endorsements and classes are different things, as are restrictions

An license to use airbrakes is an endorsement.

An A license to drive a semi is a Class

The no alcohol / no highway / no night / no passengers are restrictions. Specific to the M1.

The argument being made here by some is that only ONE of those four transpose to any other class of license you hold, but the others (magically?) do not.

Does that make sense to all here?

Where does the HTA state this?

Again, if the alcohol restriction applies, can someone who has driven a car for decades suddenly not drive on the highway, at night, or with even a single passenger?

This is a suck and blow at the same time argument that a lawyer would have a field day with.
 
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PrivatePilot said:
A lawyer would have a field day with it.
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Agreed, but only once a client with enough money to put up a huge fight decides to fund it. IIRC, winning in front of a JP doesn't set precedent, it has to move up the ladder before it becomes legally binding for other cases.
 
Thought I'd do some research.

I interpret the following, that if you have had an M license or equivalent (i.e. G) for 24 months duration within the previous 3 years, you are not considered a Novice driver, hence the zero BAC condition would not apply to you.

There could be a situation that if you have not held your G for sufficient time, then the M2 would put you back in Novice Driver category.

HTA
44.1 (1) It is a condition of the driver’s licence of every novice driver that his or her blood alcohol concentration level be zero while he or she is driving a motor vehicle on a highway.

O.Reg 340/94
29. (2) A driver of a motorcycle on a highway shall be classed as a novice driver in Class M1 or M2 unless he or she,
(a) has held at any time in the last three years a valid driver’s licence in Class M issued under the Act; or
(b) is the equivalent of a fully licensed driver in Ontario in Class M and has held for at least 24 months in the last three years a valid driver’s licence in a class equivalent to Class M, M1 or M2 issued by another province or territory of Canada, a state of the United States of America or Canada Forces Europe. O. Reg. 340/94, s. 29 (2); O. Reg. 205/10, s. 11 (2).
 
And one more note - if you fall into the novice driver category, then it applies to any motor vehicle that you are driving.
 
From my understanding, you do only have 1 license, but each letter code/type has its own set of restrictions, if any. Just like how a GM1 is still allowed to have a passenger in their car or drive at night, use the highway, etc, you are allowed to have more than 0 BAC if driving your car with a GM1 or GM2 license. If you are on the bike, then the M1 or M2 restrictions apply accordingly.

That said, there is no distinction when it comes to dermit points. Therefore, if you hold a GM1 or GM2, the total number of points you can accumulate before a suspension is on the lowest held class, not the highest. This is because there is no way to suspend only half a license.
 
If you have an M1 or an M2 and have had your G less than 24 months, then you are considered a ‘novice’ driver, and the zero BAC for novice drivers applies if you are driving a motor vehicle (m/c or car). If you are under 21, then zero BAC also applies to you regardless of what you are driving.

If you have an M1 or M2 and G>24mths and >20-yrs-old, then zero BAC applies if you are riding an m/c, not when you are driving a car.

Note: >0.050 and impaired are criminal code offences, not just HTA administrative suspensions as per the above. Be careful out there!
 
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Again NO one has stated that ALL restrictions apply, your simply using that as your argument, against what is a fact. The legislation is clear. Just as certain restrictions can apply while others do not are dependent upon how the legislation was written, (not necessarily in line with logic).

Obviously, when writing the legislation the bureaucrats at MTO felt the zero BAC, was important enough to have it transfer to other classes of licences held by the operator while the driving at night was not.

Now to reverse your argument, I guess you would argue that the restriction placed upon a G1 driver in regards to the number of passengers, and the requirement to have a Fully licenced passenger MUS also apply to the operator who holds a full M licence? Of course they don't, because the legislation doesn't state that it does. So yes CERTAIN restrictions CAN apply, whilst others don't, based upon the legislation not YOUR interpretation of said legislation.

PrivatePilot said:
Endorsements and classes are different things, as are restrictions

An license to use airbrakes is an endorsement.

An A license to drive a semi is a Class

The no alcohol / no highway / no night / no passengers are restrictions. Specific to the M1.

The argument being made here by some is that only ONE of those four transpose to any other class of license you hold, but the others (magically?) do not.

Does that make sense to all here?

Where does the HTA state this?

Again, if the alcohol restriction applies, can someone who has driven a car for decades suddenly not drive on the highway, at night, or with even a single passenger?

This is a suck and blow at the same time argument that a lawyer would have a field day with.
Click to expand...
 
BigEvilDoer said:
Absolutely correct.
One of my fellow safety course instructors is an officer with Peel region. If you're rude and belligerent to him, he'll nail you for the 0% alcohol infraction if you're driving your car with a full G and M2.
Remember, you're always limited by the LOWEST CLASS of endorsement on your license.
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Sorry, bud, but that answer doesn't "cut it". It's still just hearsay, unless you can provide a link!

IF your pal is an officer with the Peel region, ask him for chapter and verse (of the Highway Traffic Act of Ontario) under which he would CHARGE said "rude and belligerent" driver.

There has to be a published "section" of the Act...not just some "hurt feelings" on the part of the officer!

Oh, and "
Remember, you're always limited by the LOWEST CLASS of endorsement on your license.
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......I'd be interested in seeing the link to THAT clause as well. (When I click on your word CLASS, it takes me to an ad on Amazon.com for an RV cover, which I'm sure is not the reference you had in mind!)
 
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