LOL Lucky Day For Those In Court W3 At Eglinton!! (Toronto)

[Pegassus]

I got off scot free today because the cop was nowhere to be found! Yupeeeee!! No points off or the $240 fine. My insurance rates are safe... for now.

There was another cop that was supposed to be there but he retired before court date so all those under his ticket book were also told they would have their charges withdrawn!!

 

[toysareforboys]

I got off scot free today because the cop was nowhere to be found! Yupeeeee!! No points off or the $240 fine. My insurance rates are safe... for now.

There was another cop that was supposed to be there but he retired before court date so all those under his ticket book were also told they would have their charges withdrawn!!

Woot! Grats! When I went to court for my friend a few weeks ago, I checked ALL the dockets in the entire court house, her officer was only due to be in our courtroom, and he had 11 people/cases under his name, only two other cases for another cop.

Her cop didn't show! The only problem was, we were the only people that pleaded not guilty! Everyone else made a deal with the prosecutor just before the court opened, so those people plead guilty to a lesser charge/fine, etc. before they got to us and said "cop not here, charges dismissed".

Gosh I felt really bad for all those people

-Jamie M.

 

[LeetViet]

Woot! Grats! When I went to court for my friend a few weeks ago, I checked ALL the dockets in the entire court house, her officer was only due to be in our courtroom, and he had 11 people/cases under his name, only two other cases for another cop.

Her cop didn't show! The only problem was, we were the only people that pleaded not guilty! Everyone else made a deal with the prosecutor just before the court opened, so those people plead guilty to a lesser charge/fine, etc. before they got to us and said "cop not here, charges dismissed".

Gosh I felt really bad for all those people

-Jamie M.

Can you elaborate on the bold?

 

[toysareforboys]

Can you elaborate on the bold?

Sure, next time I'm at the courthouse I'll snap a pic when nobody is looking.

On the dockets posted outside each courtroom it has every persons name that has a case in that courtroom. Where it says Case # it'll have something like 6028472B/12564-5K00 the part in bold is the officer's badge number and the 5K00 is his unit number (look on your original ticket and you'll see your officers badge number and unit). If you see he has cases at the same time as yours in other courtrooms he most likely has a good chance of not being there for yours. Criminal cases (dangerous driving, dui, etc.) always get priority over traffic cases, usually involve lawyers and witnesses so he'll never be able to make it to your court room. I also feel if he's only in your courtroom, and has a bunch of cases, he'll likely be there

If he's scheduled to be present at the 11am hearings and yours is 1pm, sit in on the 11am hearings and wait for peoples names to be called where your cop was listed beside them on the docket and see if he's present

If the cop DOES show, and you're fighting a speeding ticket and you have no defense/hope of winning, you can run to the fine payment window and pay the original ticket before the court session is finished (to prevent it from being amended up and paying the much higher "court cost" fines!).

-Jamie M.

 

[Pegassus]

If you see he has cases at the same time as yours in other courtrooms he most likely has a good chance of not being there for yours. Criminal cases (dangerous driving, dui, etc.) always get priority over traffic cases, usually involve lawyers and witnesses so he'll never be able to make it to your court room. I also feel if he's only in your courtroom, and has a bunch of cases, he'll likely be there

Thanks for the wonderful tips you gave us!

No wonder that mean sadistic lady (crown) was so eager to give people in front of me plea bargains and make deals with them for lesser fines, she KNEW the cop was not there. I was going there to fight anyways so it made no difference to me, feel sorry for the suckers that pleaded guilty though. One of my problems was that my court date was the first batch, at 9:00am, I could not have visited other courtrooms to look for the cop.

I have gone for court on March 4th but the date was postponed to the 4th of April because the cop failed to provide disclosure to my traffic agent, I thought charges were going to be dismissed but no, they just postponed the date, anyways, on the second date (today) the cop was nowhere to be seen.

1 ticket down, 1 more to fight.

 

[toysareforboys]

Thanks for the wonderful tips you gave us!

No wonder that mean sadistic lady (crown) was so eager to give people in front of me plea bargains and make deals with them for lesser fines, she KNEW the cop was not going to show up. I was going there to fight anyways so it made no difference to me, feel sorry for the suckers that pleaded guilty though. One of my problems was that my court date was the first batch, at 9:00am, I could not have visited other courtrooms to look for the cop.

I have gone for court on March 4th but the date was postponed to the 4th of April because the cop failed to provide disclosure to my traffic agent, I thought charges were going to be dismissed but no, they just postponed the date, anyways, on the second date (today) the cop was nowhere to be seen.

1 ticket down, 1 more to fight.

I have a funny feeling that the crown knew our cop was not going to show too! She was pressing us HARD to make a plea deal, and I guess everyone else too because everyone else did, all 10 people! She threatened us "The cop lowered it from 40 over to 15 over. I'll get it amended back up, and with the higher court imposed fines you're looking at $385 instead of $65 if we can make a plea deal right now!". My friend almost cracked under the pressure but I showed her my evidence and previous case law and told her we'd roll the dice. She was like "you're making a big mistake", etc. TOTAL SELL JOB! When the last case was called (us), as soon as we walked to the front she said "the cop isn't here, charges dismissed" without even asking for the cop, looking around, nothing! Insane.

Good luck on your second case If you want any other tips and tricks send me a pm or e-mail to fightordie@tafb.xxx with details about your second one and I'll see if I can help at all

-Jamie M.

 

[Pegassus]

Okay, I feel I can easily win the second case unless the judge is a cop-lover and abuses his power without using judgement on men's rea. Here it is:

I was driving on the 400 southbound in my minivan when a young woman passenger removed the seatbelt of her baby's chair because she was crying (to change diapers), an OPP car was behind me and he claims he saw "lots of people moving around", everybody had their seatbelts when he stopped us except the baby's chair. He saw the baby's chair without a seatbelt and proceeded to issue me a ticket.

How in hell am I responsible for something that an adult does behind my back while I'm driving in traffic at 100 km/h? It wasn't my kid and it's not my wife, she never told me she was going to remove the seatbelt nor did I know until the cop told me that there was a baby with no seatbelts on.

My defence? I am not guilty of something I did not do, or knew, and of something I am powerless to prevent (stopping a woman from taking the seatbelt off a child behind my back). Am I supposed to keep my eyes on my passengers every single minute that I drive on a highway? I made sure they had their seatbelts on before we left, I was powerless to prevent something that was done behind my back.

 

[toysareforboys]

Okay, I feel I can easily win the second case unless the judge is a cop-lover and abuses his power without using judgement on men's rea. Here it is:

I was driving on the 400 southbound in my minivan when a young woman passenger removed the seatbelt of her baby's chair because she was crying (to change diapers), an OPP car was behind me and he claims he saw "lots of people moving around", everybody had their seatbelts when he stopped us except the baby's chair. He saw the baby's chair without a seatbelt and proceeded to issue me a ticket.

How in hell am I responsible for something that an adult does behind my back while I'm driving in traffic at 100 km/h? It wasn't my kid and it's not my wife, she never told me she was going to remove the seatbelt nor did I know until the cop told me that there was a baby with no seatbelts on.

My defence? I am not guilty of something I did not do, or knew, and of something I am powerless to prevent (stopping a woman from taking the seatbelt off a child behind my back). Am I supposed to keep my eyes on my passengers every single minute that I drive on a highway? I made sure they had their seatbelts on before we left, I was powerless to prevent something that was done behind my back.

Ohhhhh that's a good one! What's the HTA offense written on the ticket (is it Sec 106, 4b??)? When's your court date/room, I wouldn't mind sitting in on this one!

Is your passenger a witness (and did you request her to be a witness)?

-Jamie M.

 

[FiReSTaRT]

Yikes you guys dealt with some real buttholes. The one time I witnessed a no-show, the prosecutor even let off the guy whose buddy came in to get the court date adjourned for when he becomes available. The JP joked "Congratulations! You won a great victory for your friend!" My cop was there but I was let off due to no disclosure.

 

[toysareforboys]

My cop was there but I was let off due to no disclosure.

Was this at your first appearance? Two people tried to get the charges dismissed due to no or incomplete disclosure, but the judge just adjourned it a few months to give the crown time to get the disclosure in order?! I was like WTF!

-Jamie M.

 

[Vlad]

The moral of this story as well as many others is that the only way to loose for sure is not to go to court. There are so many ways to avoid the conviction that it really makes no sense not to fight the ticket. After all, the "fight" most often consists of just showing up in court to hear you are free to go. here is a history of a friend of mine :

- A pretty severe speeding case dragged for over a year due to slow disclosure and busy court. Planned to get it stayed on 11b and refused the plea. It got dropped because court had no time. The trial for a guy that did 210 in 80 took most of the day and many other small(er) potatoes were dismissed.

- Two bogus tickets from a cop with a big chip on his shoulder. Didn't show up. If he did both would be dropped and he knew it - the purpose of the tickets was harassment, not the fine per se.

- An alleged 20 over speeding clocked from an oncoming cruiser - an "enforcement of opportunity". Small municipality, but only case by that cop on that day. Didn't show up.

So, even if you are totally passive and don't do anything but appear in court your chances are pretty good and you have nothing to loose but a little time. If you know how to play the game with disclosures, plea bargains, etc. your chances of going home free become even better.

By far the sorriest bunch are those that hire quasi-paralegals to represent them. You can consider any plea a loss, and that's pretty much all they do. I've seen one entering guilty plea for more than ten people in just a couple of minutes. Those people paid hundreds of dollars for that "service" and every single one of them would go free if they just showed up and waited their turn. Paralegals and plea bargaining have their role, but make sure you know what you are going to get for your money.

There is no ticket small enough not to be taken to court. You may think a five over is not worth the hassle, but consider this: It's a great opportunity to practice navigating through the legal system and learn it's idiosyncrasies when you don't have a lot to loose. Also, even a minor ticket is a conviction on your record that can affect your insurance for years to come, so it's worth spending some time fighting it.

 

[toysareforboys]

even a minor ticket is a conviction on your record that can affect your insurance for years to come...

Great post Vlad I bolded your last sentence because some people just don't understand how that works. The points DON'T MATTER (unless you've already lost a bunch of them ), all your insurance cares about is CONVICTIONS, and if you plead guilty, even to a lesser charge WITH NO FINE, NO POINTS, etc. It's still a conviction, and although it might not screw you right away, when you get the next ticket and they cancel or jack your insurance you'll think back and go "gee, I wish I had of fought that first ticket"!

The rule I go by: Fight every single ticket as if you'll lose your license if you get convicted.

-Jamie M.

 

[FiReSTaRT]

Was this at your first appearance? Two people tried to get the charges dismissed due to no or incomplete disclosure, but the judge just adjourned it a few months to give the crown time to get the disclosure in order?! I was like WTF!

-Jamie M.

That's a waste of their time as it would get into the 11b territory. The JP was a twat

 

[iFly55]

That's a waste of their time as it would get into the 11b territory. The JP was a twat

how is the JP a twat? i'm pretty sure it was the prosecutor who requested the adjournment so the defendant could receive disclosure

the new date being in 11b territory doesn't mean the charges should be dismissed; defendants should have to argue why the delay prejudiced them and why their charges should be stayed, and not all JPs have to accept their inarticulate reasoning

 

[Pegassus]

Was this at your first appearance? Two people tried to get the charges dismissed due to no or incomplete disclosure, but the judge just adjourned it a few months to give the crown time to get the disclosure in order?! I was like WTF!

-Jamie M.

What's up with this? Why are they doing this now? What happened to a speedy trial? I highly doubt that if I accidently left my evidence at home on judgement day the judge will delay the trial 2 months to accomodate me.

I just turned my traffic ticket in to some guys that are going to help me fight it, but I will try to get the info from them under what section I was charged with.

 

[dru9]

Jamie, you seem to know your stuff, but if someone under the age of 16 (or is it 18?) is in the driver's vehicle and is not wearing a seatbelt (i.e. the baby), is the driver not responsable for the charge?

 

[FiReSTaRT]

how is the JP a twat? i'm pretty sure it was the prosecutor who requested the adjournment so the defendant could receive disclosure

the new date being in 11b territory doesn't mean the charges should be dismissed; defendants should have to argue why the delay prejudiced them and why their charges should be stayed, and not all JPs have to accept their inarticulate reasoning

Just because some defendants aren't as capable of defending themselves as others doesn't mean that they don't have certain Charter rights. An extra appearance in court means:

1) Another day/half-day that they're not getting paid at work
2) More gas money
3) More parking money
4) More time to forget the details of the incident while the cop recites his script

Just because 2 guys who get paid good money and benefits to be there didn't do their jobs and another guy who gets paid even more doesn't give a **** about the guy who actually has to lose a lot of money to be there.

 

[toysareforboys]

Jamie, you seem to know your stuff, but if someone under the age of 16 (or is it 18?) is in the driver's vehicle and is not wearing a seatbelt (i.e. the baby), is the driver not responsable for the charge?

For some reason I'm not getting e-mail replies from GTAM anymore so I apologize for not responding to your question in a timely fashion.

I have no personal experience with that situation, but from what I understand from how the law is written, anyone in the vehicle UNDER 16 years of age, that is not wearing a seatbelt, the driver gets the ticket. There are child seat laws too that say the charge goes to the driver. http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90h08_e.htm#s106s1

-Jamie M.

 

[Vlad]

The rule I go by: Fight every single ticket as if you'll lose your license if you get convicted.

That's a good rule Jamie. If everyone was following it they would have stopped using victimless crimes as a tool for random taxation a long time ago.

Speaking of deterring the system from making criminals out of law abiding citizens, I find some comfort in making everyone work hard towards my conviction - the cops, the prosecution, the JP, the bailiff, the cleaning lady... That is the only way to ultimately teach "the man" that using taxpayers money (twice) to line up the pockets of insurance companies makes no sense.

AFAIK, in the US prosecutors would usually let you plead down to a non-moving violation (or two). You pay for your "mistake" only once and they get their revenue just the same. I don't think it's common practice in the anal Ontario court system, but it may change if enough people ask for it. For example, the charge X carries $200 and 3 points. You plead it to an equivalently "priced" bylaw or non-moving violation and everyone is happy but the insurance company.

 

[iFly55]

without the insurance hit and prospect of license suspension & vehicle seizure, what else would deter people from repeating or fighting the offence?