Interference Engines

Motorcycle Mike

Well-known member
Why do manufacturers keep making cars that use timing belts in an interference design that self-destruct unless you replace something that isn't broken at a certain interval?

I first heard about this with VW, then found out about it with Subaru, and just tonight read that Honda does that too.

What manufacturers are safe? Who doesn't use this bull-crap method? At least my Toyota has a chain with no prescribed change interval.
 
Higher compression ratios resulting in more power for the same given engine size / design (other than being interference, of course).
 
Why do manufacturers keep making cars that use timing belts in an interference design that self-destruct unless you replace something that isn't broken at a certain interval?

I first heard about this with VW, then found out about it with Subaru, and just tonight read that Honda does that too.

What manufacturers are safe? Who doesn't use this bull-crap method? At least my Toyota has a chain with no prescribed change interval.

I think the domestics do. Its all about profit, a belt is much cheaper than a chain.....not to mention when you do blow an engine you will be buying more parts, win win for Honda etc
 
Goldwings have always been interference design. You change the belts every half dozen years for $50 and you're good to go. It's about the only service item on the bike that doesn't require removing the seat or radio.
 
Interference engines are a must for higher compression needed for efficiency and power. Chains rob a lot more power than belts. With that being said, the belt is a wear item that needs to be replaced at intervals. Imo the maintenance of cars has drastically improved in the last 20 years so a belt replacement is not a big deal.

Btw Hondas k series of engines in the civic, rsx, accord, crv, tsx etc etc are chain.
 
Not sure if I agree with the power lost on a chain vs belt, there are many factors including belt tension vs chain tension, how many pulleys are required for the design, overall impact on timing etc....

Simple answer IMO is cost for the most part. The kicker is the cost per unit (per car) is in the range of about $30 more per car to put a chain. This ignores redesigning the engine, it assumes the engine was already chain or belt and the incremental cost of metal and materials. Putting them on during manufacture is about a wash.

Other factors, the dealers like the extra income for belt replacements. It allows the manufacturer to use a crap water pump to save another dollar or two (might as well change the water pump when I am in there, ever hear this before...). They get to sell a few more cars or motors to the people who forget to change the belts.

In theory the belt should be quieter but this is somewhat offset by the belt being more 'external" where the chain is better covered. It is a factor though.

IMO unless the car is the bottom of the barrel entry car where every dollar counts manufacturers these days that make cars with timing belts should be avoided, it shows a total lack of respect for the buyer to save a few dollars. Lets put a part almost inside the motor that will cost $400 to $1000 to replace and needs to be replaced every 100,000km that will destroy the motor if not replaced to save maybe $30 per car.

On a bike there can be other factors such as motor dimensions and pulley size. The smaller overall motor size (physical dimensions) and the smaller pulleys may just work better with a belt than a chain. Plus the chain may make the motor itself bigger. Belts are real easy to change on most bikes.
 
Why is it so hard to replace the belt? The only real problem I see with this is that it's not compatible with the Toronto approach to maintenance, which is usually "fix my car once it stops moving".
 
Simple answer IMO is cost for the most part. The kicker is the cost per unit (per car) is in the range of about $30 more per car to put a chain.

Where did you come up with this number?

Other factors, the dealers like the extra income for belt replacements. It allows the manufacturer to use a crap water pump to save another dollar or two (might as well change the water pump when I am in there, ever hear this before...).

The quality of water pump is the same..you generally have to remove the water pump to change the belt so you're saving labour on replacing the water pump if you're already in there doing the timing belt. Water pumps usually last 160,000 to 200,000 on a lot of cars.
 
Why is it so hard to replace the belt? The only real problem I see with this is that it's not compatible with the Toronto approach to maintenance, which is usually "fix my car once it stops moving".

It costs money..and on some cars it's not that cheap a job. But yes, many people are unaware that motor vehicles require maintenance.
 
Why is it so hard to replace the belt? The only real problem I see with this is that it's not compatible with the Toronto approach to maintenance, which is usually "fix my car once it stops moving".

It is not hard or overly expensive to replace, but it could be a waste of money:

Consider if you buy a car from an auction with no mechanical records and you go replace the belt, the waterpump, and whatever else needs to be replaced at the time only to get into the job and find that the part is nearly brand new.

How about if you buy a car from someone who claims to have replaced the belt but doesn't have a receipt -- do you trust him and risk destroying the engine or do you go ahead and replace everything in case he is lying?

The service interval is usually around 100k km. So lets say you do the repair and find out that both the belt and the waterpump and whatever are not worn at all... you could have easily gotten 125k km or more out of them. I don't know about you, but I hate wasting things that are still perfectly fine - I don't play into this disposable mindset that modern companies are trying to instill in all of us. I don't wait until my tires hit the wear indicators to replace them, but I also don't replace them when they are only 25% worn either.

I know I will never again buy a car with an interference engine - it just seems like such an ****** way of making an engine.
 
I'm not suggesting doing this but in my commuter Civics I never change the timing belts water pumps or tensioners. Most I have gotten was 380,000km on the original then the rest of the car fell apart not the engine.

My reason for doing this? I can by a used imported D series engine ($300) for less then the cost of the timing belt and other associated parts. The labor is about the same if i'm personally doing it.
 
It is not hard or overly expensive to replace, but it could be a waste of money:

Consider if you buy a car from an auction with no mechanical records and you go replace the belt, the waterpump, and whatever else needs to be replaced at the time only to get into the job and find that the part is nearly brand new.

How about if you buy a car from someone who claims to have replaced the belt but doesn't have a receipt -- do you trust him and risk destroying the engine or do you go ahead and replace everything in case he is lying?

The service interval is usually around 100k km. So lets say you do the repair and find out that both the belt and the waterpump and whatever are not worn at all... you could have easily gotten 125k km or more out of them. I don't know about you, but I hate wasting things that are still perfectly fine - I don't play into this disposable mindset that modern companies are trying to instill in all of us. I don't wait until my tires hit the wear indicators to replace them, but I also don't replace them when they are only 25% worn either.

I know I will never again buy a car with an interference engine - it just seems like such an ****** way of making an engine.

You can inspect the timing belt to determine approximately how old it is. Any used car is a time bomb..
 
Not sure if I agree with the power lost on a chain vs belt, there are many factors including belt tension vs chain tension, how many pulleys are required for the design, overall impact on timing etc....

Simple answer IMO is cost for the most part. The kicker is the cost per unit (per car) is in the range of about $30 more per car to put a chain. This ignores redesigning the engine, it assumes the engine was already chain or belt and the incremental cost of metal and materials. Putting them on during manufacture is about a wash.

Other factors, the dealers like the extra income for belt replacements. It allows the manufacturer to use a crap water pump to save another dollar or two (might as well change the water pump when I am in there, ever hear this before...). They get to sell a few more cars or motors to the people who forget to change the belts.

In theory the belt should be quieter but this is somewhat offset by the belt being more 'external" where the chain is better covered. It is a factor though.

IMO unless the car is the bottom of the barrel entry car where every dollar counts manufacturers these days that make cars with timing belts should be avoided, it shows a total lack of respect for the buyer to save a few dollars. Lets put a part almost inside the motor that will cost $400 to $1000 to replace and needs to be replaced every 100,000km that will destroy the motor if not replaced to save maybe $30 per car.

On a bike there can be other factors such as motor dimensions and pulley size. The smaller overall motor size (physical dimensions) and the smaller pulleys may just work better with a belt than a chain. Plus the chain may make the motor itself bigger. Belts are real easy to change on most bikes.

LMAO no offence sounds like you are just making up a bunch of ****.

Being a wash on installation cost? Not really, pulling a tensioner to the side and slipping on a belt is going to be a hell of a lot less work than running a chain internal to the engine and riveting it together. A belt is also more rotating mass = HP lost.

BTW most timing belt failures are not belt failures at all. Usually it's the tensioner that gives up, lets the belt slack and skip a tooth or a few and bam new engine. (or at least a new head)
 
This has been an endless topic of discussion on VW diesel internet forums.

I think you will find that every modern engine design is an interference design. There are too many compromises in the shape of the combustion chamber and the profile of the camshaft to do it otherwise. Getting good efficiency out of the engine demands a relatively high compression ratio with good "squish" (the piston has to come close to the head around the perimeter) and a combustion chamber that is centralized around the spark plug (as opposed to having significant volume in oversized valve pockets far from the spark plug). If you want an efficient 4-stroke engine, it's gonna be an interference design. So you can cast off the approach of using a non-interference design. Chrysler 2.2 K-car engines aren't competitive in the modern world. (Who would buy a car with 82 horsepower nowadays?)

So then it comes down to chain versus belt, and therein comes the dilemma ...

At least with the VW engines, it's true that the chain doesn't have a scheduled replacement interval. BUT. That doesn't mean it doesn't gradually wear out - either the chain itself, or more commonly the guides and the tensioner, and in some cases the water pump if it's driven by the same chain. The problem is that the chain and guides are MUCH, MUCH more expensive to replace. You can take the front covers off the engine and do a timing belt job easily (although I will grant that so-called "mechanics" have been known to screw this job up and cause expensive trouble later down the road). But the chain pretty much requires the engine to come apart, because it's routed through the crankcase (on the lubricated side, as opposed to the belt, which is essentially bolted to the outside of the engine). More commonly, the chain or guides wear out after (say) 300,000 km and then the job of repairing the chain costs more than the car is worth, and the car goes to the scrap heap. Many, many early VW VR6 cars went to the junkyard because of timing guide and tensioner trouble. On that engine, you had to remove the transmission just to gain access to the chain, because it's on the rear of the engine, at the flywheel end. The current (but soon to be retired) 2.5 litre 5 cylinder engine that is the base gasoline engine on VW's nowadays uses the same PITA chain arrangement.

The belt design does require periodic maintenance, and if the owner doesn't pay attention to the maintenance schedule (or doesn't know what a timing belt is ...) then yes, they're going to get a blown engine eventually. German cars are designed hand in hand with that maintenance schedule and thou shalt not deviate. On that basis, every 144,000 km as called for in the service manual, my car has gotten a new timing belt, tensioner, water pump, and idler rollers, and it has now been done twice and is coming up on the third. The independent shop that I go to, charges around $700 for this job.

I don't have a problem with the use of a timing belt in this application. I'm capable of reading and following a maintenance schedule. The only thing I wish they'd do, is design the front of the engine so that you didn't have to screw around with the engine mounts to change the belt. *That* is what makes it a pain to do. On my old '96 Passat, I could do the t-belt myself in about 2.5 hours in the driveway because that one had the old style engine mounts on the left and right of the engine (i.e. front and back of the engine when installed transversely) - nothing went through the path of the belt. On the newer ones, there is a front engine mount (right side of car when installed transversely) that bolts to the front of the block through the path of the belt, so there is no way to change the belt without taking that engine mount off. Pain in the tail!!! On top of that, there is not much room to work, which is why I pay someone else to do it on this car.

FWIW there is a lot of new technology coming down the pipe. The upcoming VW TDI engine in the next VW Golf (due next year) uses a so-called "lifetime" timing belt, but it's still installed on the front of the engine as usual. (Experience with VW water pumps is that you'd best be changing the water pump so that you don't go beyond 200,000 km on it, and that means you'll be changing the belt anyways.) But even more interesting than that ... is the new Ford 1.0 Ecoboost engine (3 cylinder) that is already in production for the European Ford Focus and is believed to be coming here next year to replace the old 1.6 in the Fiesta. That one uses a "lifetime" timing belt that runs in the engine oil inside the crankcases ... essentially non-replaceable without a complete engine teardown (same situation as a chain, but you CAN NOT split a belt and re-install it the way you can use the master link of a chain).

I have a Honda snowblower that uses a timing belt that runs in the engine oil, so it's not exactly new ... but I'm still not entirely convinced that this is a good idea.
 
LMAO no offence sounds like you are just making up a bunch of ****.

Being a wash on installation cost? Not really, pulling a tensioner to the side and slipping on a belt is going to be a hell of a lot less work than running a chain internal to the engine and riveting it together. A belt is also more rotating mass = HP lost.

BTW most timing belt failures are not belt failures at all. Usually it's the tensioner that gives up, lets the belt slack and skip a tooth or a few and bam new engine. (or at least a new head)

You know that these motors are made on assembly lines and not just one guy putting it together right? My comment is about production not about the mechanic afterwards.

Even if it took a extra person on the motor line at $80 loaded costs per hour to do chain v belt. The line churns out at least 30 motors an hour which means it would cost an extra $2.67 per motor in labour.

Now many of the drive trains these days are made in offshore factories (china, mexico, etc.) that comes out to pennies a motor for installation... That is a wash to me.
 
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Where did you come up with this number?



The quality of water pump is the same..you generally have to remove the water pump to change the belt so you're saving labour on replacing the water pump if you're already in there doing the timing belt. Water pumps usually last 160,000 to 200,000 on a lot of cars.

Use to work in an auto plant and I fully understand the production process.

When it comes to chain versus belt it is a question of the parts and extra material. These parts are literally dollars different to the manufacturer (so $30 may actually be generous). We tend to think retail and think that a chain and sprockets costs way more than a belt and "pulleys" but this is not the case for the auto manufacturer.

For the water pump they should not be a consumable. No good reason to not get 300,000km on one if the coolant system is taken care of (even if not well taken care of 200,000 should not be an issue on a quality pump). Yet on many belt engines they seem to fail in the low 100,000 range if not changed. They just know, hey why put the 300,000 pump on when they have to take it off to do the belt...

I have never had a water pump fail on any of my non-belt engines all well into the 200,000+ km.


PS: All this is what happens when accountants design cars. Every dollar saved per car = [number of cars made in the year X dollar(s) saved per car]. Simple math, the best "dollars" are the ones like belts that don't seem like an issue when the car is brand new on the showroom floor....
 
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This has been an endless topic of discussion on VW diesel internet forums.

I think you will find that every modern engine design is an interference design. There are too many compromises in the shape of the combustion chamber and the profile of the camshaft to do it otherwise. Getting good efficiency out of the engine demands a relatively high compression ratio with good "squish" (the piston has to come close to the head around the perimeter) and a combustion chamber that is centralized around the spark plug (as opposed to having significant volume in oversized valve pockets far from the spark plug). If you want an efficient 4-stroke engine, it's gonna be an interference design. So you can cast off the approach of using a non-interference design. Chrysler 2.2 K-car engines aren't competitive in the modern world. (Who would buy a car with 82 horsepower nowadays?)

So then it comes down to chain versus belt, and therein comes the dilemma ...

At least with the VW engines, it's true that the chain doesn't have a scheduled replacement interval. BUT. That doesn't mean it doesn't gradually wear out - either the chain itself, or more commonly the guides and the tensioner, and in some cases the water pump if it's driven by the same chain. The problem is that the chain and guides are MUCH, MUCH more expensive to replace. You can take the front covers off the engine and do a timing belt job easily (although I will grant that so-called "mechanics" have been known to screw this job up and cause expensive trouble later down the road). But the chain pretty much requires the engine to come apart, because it's routed through the crankcase (on the lubricated side, as opposed to the belt, which is essentially bolted to the outside of the engine). More commonly, the chain or guides wear out after (say) 300,000 km and then the job of repairing the chain costs more than the car is worth, and the car goes to the scrap heap. Many, many early VW VR6 cars went to the junkyard because of timing guide and tensioner trouble. On that engine, you had to remove the transmission just to gain access to the chain, because it's on the rear of the engine, at the flywheel end. The current (but soon to be retired) 2.5 litre 5 cylinder engine that is the base gasoline engine on VW's nowadays uses the same PITA chain arrangement.

The belt design does require periodic maintenance, and if the owner doesn't pay attention to the maintenance schedule (or doesn't know what a timing belt is ...) then yes, they're going to get a blown engine eventually. German cars are designed hand in hand with that maintenance schedule and thou shalt not deviate. On that basis, every 144,000 km as called for in the service manual, my car has gotten a new timing belt, tensioner, water pump, and idler rollers, and it has now been done twice and is coming up on the third. The independent shop that I go to, charges around $700 for this job.

I don't have a problem with the use of a timing belt in this application. I'm capable of reading and following a maintenance schedule. The only thing I wish they'd do, is design the front of the engine so that you didn't have to screw around with the engine mounts to change the belt. *That* is what makes it a pain to do. On my old '96 Passat, I could do the t-belt myself in about 2.5 hours in the driveway because that one had the old style engine mounts on the left and right of the engine (i.e. front and back of the engine when installed transversely) - nothing went through the path of the belt. On the newer ones, there is a front engine mount (right side of car when installed transversely) that bolts to the front of the block through the path of the belt, so there is no way to change the belt without taking that engine mount off. Pain in the tail!!! On top of that, there is not much room to work, which is why I pay someone else to do it on this car.

FWIW there is a lot of new technology coming down the pipe. The upcoming VW TDI engine in the next VW Golf (due next year) uses a so-called "lifetime" timing belt, but it's still installed on the front of the engine as usual. (Experience with VW water pumps is that you'd best be changing the water pump so that you don't go beyond 200,000 km on it, and that means you'll be changing the belt anyways.) But even more interesting than that ... is the new Ford 1.0 Ecoboost engine (3 cylinder) that is already in production for the European Ford Focus and is believed to be coming here next year to replace the old 1.6 in the Fiesta. That one uses a "lifetime" timing belt that runs in the engine oil inside the crankcases ... essentially non-replaceable without a complete engine teardown (same situation as a chain, but you CAN NOT split a belt and re-install it the way you can use the master link of a chain).

I have a Honda snowblower that uses a timing belt that runs in the engine oil, so it's not exactly new ... but I'm still not entirely convinced that this is a good idea.

Try replacing the timing chains on an Audi 4.2 ... step one remove engine. The chains are at the back of the motor.
 
Use to work in an auto plant and I fully understand the production process.

When it comes to chain versus belt it is a question of the parts and extra material. These parts are literally dollars different to the manufacturer (so $30 may actually be generous). We tend to think retail and think that a chain and sprockets costs way more than a belt and "pulleys" but this is not the case for the auto manufacturer.

Thanks. I was genuinely curious..I heard GM pays like $8 for a tire..

For the water pump they should not be a consumable. No good reason to not get 300,000km on one if the coolant system is taken care of (even if not well taken care of 200,000 should not be an issue on a quality pump). Yet on many belt engines they seem to fail in the low 100,000 range if not changed. They just know, hey why put the 300,000 pump on when they have to take it off to do the belt...

I have never had a water pump fail on any of my non-belt engines all well into the 200,000+ km.

I think that's a reflection of the brand or manufacturer..not the cam drive type.
 
Not sure if I agree with the power lost on a chain vs belt, there are many factors including belt tension vs chain tension, how many pulleys are required for the design, overall impact on timing etc....

Timing belts are 1-2% more efficient at power transmission than chains - that is a well established fact. Gates has a number of technical papers, here is a link to one:

http://www.gates.com/facts/documents/Gf000287.pdf

Gates claims up to 4% better in power transmission efficiency compared to a chain drive. I think that is a bit of a stretch.

Some OEM's decided to switch to timing chain drive because a lot of consumers were turned off by the replacement cost (labour) of the belts as well as the catastrophic failure that occurs if the timing belt fails.
 
It is not hard or overly expensive to replace, but it could be a waste of money:

Consider if you buy a car from an auction with no mechanical records and you go replace the belt, the waterpump, and whatever else needs to be replaced at the time only to get into the job and find that the part is nearly brand new.

How about if you buy a car from someone who claims to have replaced the belt but doesn't have a receipt -- do you trust him and risk destroying the engine or do you go ahead and replace everything in case he is lying?

The service interval is usually around 100k km. So lets say you do the repair and find out that both the belt and the waterpump and whatever are not worn at all... you could have easily gotten 125k km or more out of them. I don't know about you, but I hate wasting things that are still perfectly fine - I don't play into this disposable mindset that modern companies are trying to instill in all of us. I don't wait until my tires hit the wear indicators to replace them, but I also don't replace them when they are only 25% worn either.

I know I will never again buy a car with an interference engine - it just seems like such an ****** way of making an engine.

In other parts of the world, it is actually common to keep receipts for things like maintenance, and gets passed on to the next owner of the car. I completely understand your point here though, because I'm lucky to even get the legally required UVIP with a vehicle.
 
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