How to fight a radar gun speeding ticket? | GTAMotorcycle.com

How to fight a radar gun speeding ticket?

DigitalMagick

DigitalMagick

Member
I'll begin with the story, mention what I already understand, and maybe someone can help me take things further.

The Story:
I was driving at about 2am southbound on the Bayview Extension (just south of Bloor), I was doing about 55-60kph, and there was a car parked where the speed trap usually is. As I'm rounding the bend it turns on it's lights (normal vehicle lights), and as I pass, it's police lights begins flashing, and he begins rolling forward. Thinking not much of it, I pull over as you do for any emergency vehicle with beacons flashing. He comes up behind me and stops, I'm surprised as I didn't think it was for me.

The police officer takes a few minutes, then get's out of his vehicle and states he is issuing me a ticket for going 87kph in a 60 zone. At this point I'm shocked, but I remember the cardinal rule, never say anything to an officer. I just give him my License, Insurance card, and registration, and he returns to his car, a few moments later he returns with a ticket.

Here is where I opened my mouth, and this may have been a mistake... But I asked him (exact words) "Officer, if I may ask, what is it that led you to believe I was going 87kph?". He responded by stating he used a radar gun, and asserting that he is a trained radar gun operator. And at that he sent me on my way.

Now I know what your thinking "Everyone who get's a ticket thinks they are innocent, event the ones who were going 120kph in a 30 zone". And I may not have been staring vigilantly at my speedometer, So it's entirely possible I was going a few kph over, But my motorcycle is not capable of going 87kph unless I'm going downhill, and the downhill section of Bayview was a long ways behind me, and is a long turn, where I ride the brakes to keep from flying off the road (especially after seeing an accident there a few months back where two opposing vehicles hit each other head on). Even if I sped down that downhill, by the time I reached view of the officer's radar gun, I'd be doing 70kph at best.

In short, It's just not possible, as my motorcycle is not capable of going that fast even if I were a speed demon.

Additional Facts:

  • This was right BEFORE the big snow on Tuesday morning, so that's not a factor.
  • There were no other vehicles witnessed by me the entire time. Just me and the police car.
  • The ticket is completely accurate (apart from the 87kph)

Here's what I already know: (and feel free to correct me, I'm not arrogant)
I Don't intend to simply pay the ticket. While I really don't care about the fine, my time is worth more than the fine for the time it would take. The 3 demerit points for 27 over I could swallow, as I don't speed, or really do anything reckless on my little beater of a bike (at least not on-road), but it's the potential insurance hit, as I'm an M2 driver, and this is my first year of driving, so I'm sure I should be fighting this.

I received the ticket Tuesday at roughly 2am, so I have just under 2 weeks left in order to respond to the ticket (and I do NOT intend to ignore it).

If I intend to opt for a court date, I would request disclosure of the officer's notes, both sides of the ticket, etc...

What I don't know:
Once I get to court, How can I question a radar gun? I've heard about calibration issues, but 27 over? I mean how can the technology fail that hard? These Radar guns are designed to be able to pick up things as small as a model airplane, my little Enduro shouldn't be sending out ghost or errant bounce signals. Especially not 27kph worth.

A 3rd option on the ticket is "Early resolution", where I can meet with a prosecutor. From what I've read that is just an opportunity for a plea bargain. But if I do choose this option, does this person have the power to waive a ticket? Or would I just be expecting to reject him and move on to court anyways? (by selecting this option, would the court date be any further pushed back?)

Without further suggestion/information, here are my options as I understand them:
  1. I could swallow my pride, talk to the "Early resolution" prosecutor and accept a plea-bargain to save a tiny amount of cash, and HOPE that Jevco forgives first minor offenses.
  2. I could Just pay the ticket and say screw it. (I don't like this plan)
  3. I could set a court date and HOPE that either the officer doesn't show, or that the court date is so delayed that I could claim 11b (speedy court date).

Any suggestions are welcome with thanks.

Regards,
DigitalMagick
 
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I'm assuming you have no other prior convictions? You should try your hardest to keep it that way. Easiest route is to pay for a reputable paralegal.

I would recommend against not going to early resolution, just request trial and disclosure. If you go to early resolution, refuse it and then go to trial it will count against you when you try for a 11b.

You will get nowhere trying to pick at the radar gun or its use (As the officer is 'trained') and all the radar guns now are self-calibrating upon startup.
 
No prior convictions as I understand them (just two small parking tickets where I WAS guilty, and I simply paid the tickets, do those count? They were both under $100, I've read that parking tickets are not convictions unless you fight them and lose, but I could easily be wrong).

I assume the double negative was a type-o? You are recommending I don't go to early resolution as it could count against me in 11b should I reject their offer?

That's what I was afraid of. My concern then becomes, if they are impossible to fight in this case, yet I wasn't going 87kph, I begin to fear speed traps regardless of legally driving the speed limit. Any tips on not being misread by them?

Would anyone know the average cost of a Paralegal in such a case? Would it really be worth it? or should I just plea-bargain with the early resolution?

I take it that this means my bikes incapacity to drive this speed is useless information in court?
 
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moosehead said:
I'm sure if you can prove that the bike cannot reach that speed, then it's an incredibly easy case to win.
Click to expand...

+1

My uncle got an Ohio state trooper fired once, he was driving his big rig and got a ticket doing something like 30 over cop said. Went to court with his trucks speed logger/limiter + person who calibrated it (truck was not capable of the speed, literally) = ticket thrown out and officer fired.
 
Is the vehicle in question LSM plated? (green plate)
 
TwistedKestrel said:
Is the vehicle in question LSM plated? (green plate)
Click to expand...

No it is not. It's a 200cc 4-stroke Suzuki DR200SE.

When this model of motorcycle is purchased new, this bike should be able to get up to 90kph (possibly faster), but I'm the 6th owner of this particular one, and it's had it's engine rebuilt twice, and it's been geared down slightly for better torque off-road. (a slightly larger rear wheel sprocket to compensate for reduced engine performance)

It's also been riding a bit sluggish since the winter dropped below -5c. Meaning I'm lucky to get it up over 60kph.

As there is no logger or limiter, I'm not sure how I could "prove" that it's top speed is about 70kph, aside from letting an officer/prosecutor ride it and tell them to "Give it all you've got, and watch it not even crack 70". But the chances of them doing that...well...I'd have better luck winning the lottery I would think.
 
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DigitalMagick said:
No it is not. It's a 200cc 4-stroke Suzuki DR200SE.

When this model of motorcycle is purchased new, this bike should be able to get up to 90kph (possibly faster)
Click to expand...

Knowing this, it might be hard to make your argument about your bike's top speed.
 
wormburner said:
Knowing this, it might be hard to make your argument about your bike's top speed.
Click to expand...

I see.

Well, moving forward, I can see two options:
  1. Plea-bargain the ticket down and hope that JevCo forgives a first minor ticket.
  2. Go to court and pray the officer doesn't show up, or that the court is delayed to the point where it's not on my record long enough to matter (or 11b).

One thing that I am having trouble finding out from my research, what exactly happens if I take this to court and loose? Does it just charge me the full ticket? are there extra fees added? Does it get worse?
 
If it were me, I'd follow the normal advised steps for proceeding to court. I.e. get disclosure first.

I'd talk to the prosecutor on the day of court and advise I'm going to plead not guilty and that your bike was not capable of achieving the speed your charged with.

I'd question the cop about their evidence.

I'd present any evidence I can to substantiate that my bike couldnae go dat fast, cap'n.

Worse case is they find you guilty and probably a reduced fine or suspended sentence.

Good luck.
 
I paid $250 + HST for my paralegal. My court date is Feb. 25. I hope they win. My ticket is a speeding one as well. I can update you with the progress if you wish.
 
Take your bike on a 80KM/h and record a GPS log. Not just top speed, bring a track with points every two seconds. I took a GPS log to court and proved my speed was 117KM/h instead of 140KM/h. I also did a comparison track with two other GPSes to show they are accurate. I printed the receiver data sheet which showed accuracy. The judge accepted my log, but I still got charged for speeding since the log showed I was doing 117. Chances are these ****tards will blow you off even if you get god to testify for you, but if it makes you feel better give it a shot. I could help you with tracks and all that.
 
daught said:
Take your bike on a 80KM/h and record a GPS log. Not just top speed, bring a track with points every two seconds...
Click to expand...

Confused... are you saying to record a GPS log after the fact? I don't understand how that can be submitted as evidence. Or did you happen to be recording a GPS log at the time you were pulled over?

If you're going to record a GPS log after the fact, then why not record yourself going under the speed limit?

:confused:
 
In my case I had my gps running. Every point on a track has a time and date. My time and date was the same as the one on the ticket.

In your case I was suggesting you make a gps track of your maximum speed.
 
daught said:
In my case I had my gps running. Every point on a track has a time and date. My time and date was the same as the one on the ticket.

In your case I was suggesting you make a gps track of your maximum speed.
Click to expand...

what program were you using? Is there one for the Iphone?

DigitalMagick - I found this vehicle speed logger app for the Iphone. I think I might just start using this after readng your story.
http://www.vehiclespeedlogger.com/
 
Dayao12 said:
what program were you using? Is there one for the Iphone?

DigitalMagick - I found this vehicle speed logger app for the Iphone. I think I might just start using this after readng your story.
http://www.vehiclespeedlogger.com/
Click to expand...

It was garmin, but motionx is great. Use it if you want but I doubt it would actually get anyone off. The "judges" are way to ignorant to actually accept facts.
 
DigitalMagick said:
[...snip...]

What I don't know:
Once I get to court, How can I question a radar gun? I've heard about calibration issues, but 27 over? I mean how can the technology fail that hard? These Radar guns are designed to be able to pick up things as small as a model airplane, my little Enduro shouldn't be sending out ghost or errant bounce signals. Especially not 27kph worth.

[...snip...]
Click to expand...

A long time ago, I posted a lot of information about this particular question, unfortunately it has been deleted. I am not planning to post everything again, but basically... here it is:

Back in 2005, England’s BBC's “Inside Out” TV program and The Daily Mail hired a number of experts to test the LTI 20-20 (laser speedmeter device, manufactured by http://www.lasertech.com in the USA). Results:

  • It wrongly recorded a wall (yes, a brick wall) as travelling at 44mph
  • An empty road scored 33mph
  • A parked car was clocked as doing 22mph
  • A bicycle (in reality being ridden at 5mph) clocked 66mph

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-365563/The-great-speed-gun-scandal.html#ixzz2Jx1oERTc

Mostly, it is user error that causes these outrageous readings.

Read these pages: http://www.delonixradar.com.au/new-south-wales/

Both the UK and Australia and Canada share commonalities in law (and in speed guns, all of them made in the USA).

Ask for disclosure, requesting specific details for your case
 
How do you ask for dislosure for a speeding ticket? I posted this before (maybe a couple of years ago) and now it is gone as well... but I did keep my own copy. Here are some examples:

Source: http://www.ontariohighwaytrafficact.com/topic2959.html

DISCLOSURE REQUEST​


Date: April 15, 20xx
Offence Number: 123456789A
Offence Date: December 12, 2010
Defendant: [YOUR NAME HERE]
Charge: Speeding 98 km/h in a 70 km/h zone
Court date: October 22, 2012 [ASSUMING THAT YOU HAVE A DATE ALREADY]
Court Location: Room A1, 465 Davis Drive West, Newmarket, Ontario

In regards to the charge above, and with respect to the guidelines established by the R. v. Stinchcombe, 1991 (SCC) and subsequent cases, I request that you provide me with all relevant information so that I can prepare a defence, and make full answer, to the charge mentioned above. Without limiting this request, I specifically ask that you include:

* A full copy of the officer's notes, typed if not legible;
* If short-form writing is used in the officer's notes, please have the officer provide an explanation for the short forms;
* A copy of the manual for the speed-measuring device used by the officer

I also request that you inform me of any information that is not being disclosed, with an explanation for such. If you require further information from me or have any questions regarding my request, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Thank you.


[YOUR NAME HERE]
123 Something Street
Toronto, Ontario
M1M 1A1



__________________________________________________ ______

Here is another version:

DISCLOSURE REQUEST​



Date: April 15, 20xx
Offence Number: 123456789A
Offence Date: December 22, 2010
Defendant: [YOUR NAME HERE]
Charge: Speeding 148 km/h in a 100 km/h zone
Court date: October 22, 2012 [ASSUMING THAT YOU HAVE A DATE ALREADY]
Court Location: Room A1, 465 Davis Drive West, Newmarket, Ontario

Dear Sir or Madam,

I am scheduled to appear in court room A1 on October 22, 2012 at 9:30AM to respond to a charge of Speeding contrary to the Ontario Highway Traffic Act. I request a complete disclosure of the case against me, including but not limited to the following items:

1. Copies of all witness statements, including explanations of shorthand, or coded notes by officers.
2. The officer’s notes regarding the alleged infractions, including explanations or shorthand, or coded notes by the officer.
3. Both sides of the officer’s copy of the Ticket.
4. Information about any speed monitoring devices used in the alleged offence.
5. A copy of the officer’s training record, or certificate of qualification specific to said speed-monitoring device, or speed estimation device.
6. A copy of the calibration, and repair history of any speed-monitoring device used in this alleged offence.
7. A copy of the operator’s manual for said speed-monitoring device.
8. A copy of the officers call sheet from the day of the allegation.
9. And any other document that the Crown, or Crown’s witness, may rely on at trial.


As I am sure you realize, I require timely disclosure in order to make full answer and defense to the charge. Thank you, for you assistance, and please forward all requested information to above noted address.

Thank you.


[YOUR NAME HERE]
123 Something Street
Vaughan, Ontario
L1L 1L1




__________________________________________________ ______

Here is another one, asking for even more details:

DISCLOSURE REQUEST​
Re: Ticket Offence # ___________________


Dear Provincial Prosecutor,

I am scheduled to appear in courtroom _______ on ___________, at ___________ to answer to a charge of Speeding, contrary to section 128 of the Highway Traffic Act.

In order to make full answer and defense to the alleged charge, I hereby request complete disclosure of the case against me. Please include the following items:

A) both sides of the officer's copy of the ticket;
B) a detailed legible copy of all officers notes regarding the alleged offence;
C) a copy of the officer's training record with respect to operating radar speed monitoring devices to include all certification and training dates and times for the last 5 years;
D) the officer's log for radar/laser speed equipment testing on the alleged offence day;
E) the make, model, serial number, purchase date, software revision, and repair history log of the radar speed monitoring device used;
F) copies of the manufacturer's specifications for testing the 'speed monitoring device' ;
G) a detailed description of the settings the radar speed monitoring device was in a the specific time of the alleged offence;
H) detailed accuracy specifications of the radar device in moving mode and stationary mode which is obtained via the manufacture and or authorized distributor;
I) information regarding the last speed violation written prior to the alleged offence to include the time, date location and speed of that offence;
J) the daily inspection log for the police vehicle used in detection of the alleged speed offence on the alleged offence date;
K) any document the Crown may rely on at trial;

If any of the above items are unavailable, please specify the reason(s) and have an authority certify the facts, which will be used as an affidavit at trial. Failure to respond to each item requested may deny the accused to make FULL ANSWER AND DEFENCE.

As I am sure you realize, I require timely disclosure in order to make full answer and defense to the charge. Thank you for your assistance, and please send me all the information to the address below. If more time is needed please contact me for resolution and or court date changes.

Sincerely yours,

[YOUR NAME]
123 Farm Rd
Barrie, Ontario
L4M 1L6
 
Bump great disclosure requests. I am sending in a request for my GF.

Here's my custom tailored body. I took the best of both.

General Request
With regard to the above matter and in light of the guidelines set out in R. v. Stinchcombe, 1991 CANLII 45 (S.C.C.), and subsequent cases, I am requesting that you provide me with all relevant information and documentation so that I may prepare my defence against the above charge and make full answer.

Specific Request
Without limiting the generality of the above request, I ask that you also include:

1. Copies of all witness statements, including explanations of shorthand, or coded notes by officers.
2. The officer’s notes regarding the alleged infractions, including explanations or shorthand, or coded notes by the officer.
3. A typed version of any hand written notes.
4. Both sides of the officer’s copy of the Ticket.
5. Information about any speed monitoring devices used in the alleged offence.
6. A copy of the officer’s training record, or certificate of qualification specific to said speed-monitoring device, or speed estimation device.
7. A copy of the calibration, and repair history of any speed-monitoring device used in this alleged offence.
8. A copy of the operator’s manual for said speed-monitoring device.
9. A copy of the officers call sheet from the day of the allegation.
10. And any other document that the Crown, or Crown’s witness, may rely on at trial.

Missing Information
I also request that you advise me of any information, which is not being disclosed and an explanation for such non-disclosure.

If you require further information from me or have any questions regarding my request for disclosure please do not hesitate to contact me.
 
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