Harley Happenings - Jochen Zeitz "retiring"

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xrljoel

Well-known member
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Well what better time to get going than when the going is getting tougher?

Or perhaps, being thrown out on your arse because you squandered the best (last?) opportunity to grow the company beyond expensive, obsolete retiring-dentist cycles? Which was planned by the last guy.

More likely, he didn't do anything positive for shareholder value/return.

What happens to HD now? The tariffs brought on by the orange-menace will probably kill sales of Sportsters & ugly HD ADV bikes in USA and sales of everything elsewhere. Their core customers appear to have hit the price ceiling, or maybe just think the new bikes are ugly.

Come on, lets hear some juicy conjecture, wild speculation, outlandish notions and some good old fashioned Harley bashing countered by rose-colored glasses defense. Realistic points of view are welcome too.

C'mon GTAM..shake off the banality of complaining about the weather, comparing tire rebates/gear prices, and changing the brakes on the family bucket and LET 'ER RIP!!!!!!

Or has our chronological age caught up to us all?


canadamotoguide.com

Harley-Davidson Looking For New Big Boss As Jochen Zeitz Retires | Canada Moto Guide

Jochen Zeitz has announced he is retiring, and will stay in the CEO role until H-D finds a replacement.
canadamotoguide.com canadamotoguide.com
 
I think they need to hire some folks from Triumph or Indian and reinvent themselves. I root for HD but, I was also a long time Leaf’s fan (divorced them in 2009).


Their ADV bike is actually pretty good but, I’m not in that market yet. Those entry bikes look terrible and Sportster replacements are no better. Indian Scout is the bees knees even if they are still on the high side of price point.

Triumph has great entry level bikes and tons of variety from classic, adv, sport, entry. They are not all winners but, overall seem to offer quite a bit.

When the majority of offerings are soft tails and touring models even the dentists won’t change out their Ultra and the latest.
 
Push a GS1300 around and sit on it, it can be intimidating. But, they are the pinnacle of adv machines. The HD is very competitive when stacked up to it and others in the same specs.


The size, power and dare I say ergos are actually decent. I’m just not an adv guy. However, in a few years the used market may have a few garage queens being sold from estate sales from a spouse that has no idea what they are worth and I might pick one up. 😉
 
Seeing an iconic American brand like Harley get all panicked and financially walloped by the effects of this trade war has a certain irony to it. And appeal.
 
PrivatePilot said:
Seeing an iconic American brand like Harley get all panicked and financially walloped by the effects of this trade war has a certain irony to it. And appeal.
Click to expand...
I take no delight in anyone or any company getting beaten down by the cheeto. HD makes some cool bikes. They have been unable to escape circling the drain for decades. Panam was a good try.
 
GreyGhost said:
I take no delight in anyone or any company getting beaten down by the cheeto. HD makes some cool bikes. They have been unable to escape circling the drain for decades. Panam was a good try.
Click to expand...

Given their audience is a very high percentage of MAGA, the delight bit for me is watching them to the dealer to buy a new bike this spring and being outraged that it costs $10k more.

I can only hope these sorts of situations will finally drive the point home to these people that tariffs are a tax on *them*.

Reality though? It’ll be Bidens fault somehow.
 
xrljoel said:
Come on, lets hear some juicy conjecture, wild speculation, outlandish notions and some good old fashioned Harley bashing
Click to expand...

Whohooo!!! I brought beer!

The main problem is that the core of their identity and sales is tied to big, heavy, old-technology and vintage design, exactly the opposite of what is actually selling in the marketplace.

They've cultivated this image for so long, turning it into a selling feature and not a drawback, that any kind of foray into anything that isn't big, old and heavy is automatically rejected by their shrinking loyal fanbase as "not a real Harley", a phrase popularized by Harley's own marketing department of the 90s and 2000s.

Smaller bikes? "NOT A REAL HARLEY!"
Electric bikes? "NOT A REAL HARLEY!"
Water-cooling? "NOT A REAL HARLEY!"
Performance and technology? "NOT A REAL HARLEY!"
Adventure bikes? "NOT A REAL HARLEY!"

The worst part of it all is that the "NOT A REAL HARLEY" mantra is chanted by Harley's own salespeople on the dealership floor. About any Harley that isn't a Road King or Ultra-Wide-Glide-Dynasaur...

Two data points:

1. The Harley brand has immense value, but not for anything new, innovative, small, nimble, fairly priced etc.
2. The Harley badge is also toxic to new designs

Possible solution:

Keep selling baggers, Road Kings, bikes designed in the 1940s under the Harley brand. Keep the average selling price high. Sell to the dentists who can afford to buy brand new, or to the guys willing to leverage themselves upside-down so they can own a "real Harley". Most importantly: make sure these bikes are made in 'MURICA. This is your low-volume, high-margin cash cow. Milk this fanbase for as long as you can to give yourself time and capital to transition.

Create a new brand for new bikes and models. DO NOT SELL THESE IN THE HARLEY DEALERSHIPS. Yes, you may be bypassing the largest existing motorcycle retail network ever built, but the salespeople and customers who set foot in there are toxic to new model sales: It was a net negative for Buell. It was a negative for the V-Rod, it was a negative for Livewire (amongst other issues like pricing).

New motorcycles must not have a Harley badge. Cultivate a performance-based subsidiary and position any dealership carrying these products as far away from the Harley brand as possible. Make these bikes best of class and make them affordable - the same as any product in the marketplace that you want to sell a lot of.

But bottom-line, do not call it a Harley and downplay any association to the parent company whatsoever.

The Harley-Davidson brand is quite simply resistant to change and future growth. It's baked deep into their DNA and identity. Trying to rectify this core issue is a waste of time and money.
 
Lightcycle said:
Whohooo!!! I brought beer!

The main problem is that the core of their identity and sales is tied to big, heavy, old-technology and vintage design, exactly the opposite of what is actually selling in the marketplace.

They've cultivated this image for so long, turning it into a selling feature and not a drawback, that any kind of foray into anything that isn't big, old and heavy is automatically rejected by their shrinking loyal fanbase as "not a real Harley", popularized by Harley's own marketing department of the 90s and 2000s.

Smaller bikes? "NOT A REAL HARLEY!"
Electric bikes? "NOT A REAL HARLEY!"
Water-cooling? "NOT A REAL HARLEY!"
Adventure bikes? "NOT A REAL HARLEY!"

Two data points:

1. The Harley brand has immense value, but not for anything new, innovative, small, nimble, fairly priced etc.
2. The Harley badge is also toxic to new designs

Possible solution:

Keep selling baggers, Road Kings, bikes designed in the 1940s under the Harley brand. Keep the average selling price high. Sell to the dentists who can afford to buy brand new, or to the guys willing to leverage themselves upside so they can own a "real Harley".

Create a new brand for new bikes and models. DO NOT SELL THESE IN THE HARLEY DEALERSHIPS. Yes, you may be bypassing the largest existing motorcycle retail network ever built, but the salespeople and customers who set foot in there are toxic to new model sales: It was a net negative for Buell. It was a negative for the V-Rod, it was a negative for Livewire (amongst other issues like pricing).

New motorcycles must not have a Harley badge. Cultivate a performance-based subsidiary and position any dealership carrying these products as far away from the Harley brand as possible. Make these bikes best of class and make them affordable - the same as any product you want to sell a lot of.

But bottom-line, do not call it a Harley or play up the association whatsoever.

The Harley-Davidson brand is toxic to future growth. Trying to change this core issue is a waste of time and money.
Click to expand...
On that path, having a separate sales structure but leveraging the existing network for service/warranty might be an acceptable hybrid. A lot of people want service close by. An entirely separate brand with only a few locations is destined to only sell a few bikes (see livewire).
 
GreyGhost said:
On that path, having a separate sales structure but leveraging the existing network for service/warranty might be an acceptable hybrid. A lot of people want service close by. An entirely separate brand with only a few locations is destined to only sell a few bikes (see livewire).
Click to expand...

Or go the way that Suzuki, Kawasaki, Royal Enfield, CFMOTO, etc have gone by selling through multi-line channels.

Then you've got to really make sure the new bikes will compete in price and performance if they're sitting right next to other models of other brands. But that should go without saying though, if you really want to increase sales numbers, right?
 
Can whatever they come up with really compete on sales floors when sitting beside Kawasakis and Hondas and Yamahas etc etc etc? A whole new brand name with no recognition and no cachet would be a hard sell IMHO.
 
Lightcycle said:
Whohooo!!! I brought beer!

The main problem is that the core of their identity and sales is tied to big, heavy, old-technology and vintage design, exactly the opposite of what is actually selling in the marketplace.

They've cultivated this image for so long, turning it into a selling feature and not a drawback, that any kind of foray into anything that isn't big, old and heavy is automatically rejected by their shrinking loyal fanbase as "not a real Harley", a phrase popularized by Harley's own marketing department of the 90s and 2000s.

Smaller bikes? "NOT A REAL HARLEY!"
Electric bikes? "NOT A REAL HARLEY!"
Water-cooling? "NOT A REAL HARLEY!"
Performance and technology? "NOT A REAL HARLEY!"
Adventure bikes? "NOT A REAL HARLEY!"

The worst part of it all is that the "NOT A REAL HARLEY" mantra is chanted by Harley's own salespeople on the dealership floor. About any Harley that isn't a Road King, Ultra-Wide-Glide-Dynasaur...

Two data points:

1. The Harley brand has immense value, but not for anything new, innovative, small, nimble, fairly priced etc.
2. The Harley badge is also toxic to new designs

Possible solution:

Keep selling baggers, Road Kings, bikes designed in the 1940s under the Harley brand. Keep the average selling price high. Sell to the dentists who can afford to buy brand new, or to the guys willing to leverage themselves upside-down so they can own a "real Harley".

Create a new brand for new bikes and models. DO NOT SELL THESE IN THE HARLEY DEALERSHIPS. Yes, you may be bypassing the largest existing motorcycle retail network ever built, but the salespeople and customers who set foot in there are toxic to new model sales: It was a net negative for Buell. It was a negative for the V-Rod, it was a negative for Livewire (amongst other issues like pricing).

New motorcycles must not have a Harley badge. Cultivate a performance-based subsidiary and position any dealership carrying these products as far away from the Harley brand as possible. Make these bikes best of class and make them affordable - the same as any product in the marketplace that you want to sell a lot of.

But bottom-line, do not call it a Harley and downplay any association to the parent company whatsoever.

The Harley-Davidson brand is toxic to future growth. Trying to change this core issue is a waste of time and money.
Click to expand...
Maybe Harley can sell the new bikes under the badge of, uhh,....Aermacchi, " Powered by Harley-Davidson." :p Look it up young guys.
 
PrivatePilot said:
Can whatever they come up with really compete on sales floors when sitting beside Kawasakis and Hondas and Yamahas etc etc etc? A whole new brand name with no recognition and no cachet would be a hard sell IMHO.
Click to expand...

A lot of newer Harleys have quite good tech in them, the Pan Am and VRod were easily best-of-class. It's the price point and toxic culture that did those models in.

As for branding, it can work both ways. Don't call it a Harley, but everyone knows that it's HD money backing R+D, so it's not a totally unknown brand.

The bottom line is you don't want your traditional HD sales people and their toxic userbase anywhere near these bikes, poisoning prospective buyers and sabotaging sales.
 
Glenn/RZ500 said:
Maybe Harley can sell the new bikes under the badge of, uhh,....Aermacchi, " Powered by Harley-Davidson." :p Look it up young guys.
Click to expand...

Maybe they should revive the AMF branding lol
 
Lightcycle said:
Whohooo!!! I brought beer!

The main problem is that the core of their identity and sales is tied to big, heavy, old-technology and vintage design, exactly the opposite of what is actually selling in the marketplace.

They've cultivated this image for so long, turning it into a selling feature and not a drawback, that any kind of foray into anything that isn't big, old and heavy is automatically rejected by their shrinking loyal fanbase as "not a real Harley", a phrase popularized by Harley's own marketing department of the 90s and 2000s.

Smaller bikes? "NOT A REAL HARLEY!"
Electric bikes? "NOT A REAL HARLEY!"
Water-cooling? "NOT A REAL HARLEY!"
Performance and technology? "NOT A REAL HARLEY!"
Adventure bikes? "NOT A REAL HARLEY!"

The worst part of it all is that the "NOT A REAL HARLEY" mantra is chanted by Harley's own salespeople on the dealership floor. About any Harley that isn't a Road King, Ultra-Wide-Glide-Dynasaur...

Two data points:

1. The Harley brand has immense value, but not for anything new, innovative, small, nimble, fairly priced etc.
2. The Harley badge is also toxic to new designs

Possible solution:

Keep selling baggers, Road Kings, bikes designed in the 1940s under the Harley brand. Keep the average selling price high. Sell to the dentists who can afford to buy brand new, or to the guys willing to leverage themselves upside-down so they can own a "real Harley". Most importantly: make sure these bikes are made in 'MURICA. This is your low-volume, high-margin cash cow. Milk this fanbase for as long as you can to give yourself time and capital to transition.

Create a new brand for new bikes and models. DO NOT SELL THESE IN THE HARLEY DEALERSHIPS. Yes, you may be bypassing the largest existing motorcycle retail network ever built, but the salespeople and customers who set foot in there are toxic to new model sales: It was a net negative for Buell. It was a negative for the V-Rod, it was a negative for Livewire (amongst other issues like pricing).

New motorcycles must not have a Harley badge. Cultivate a performance-based subsidiary and position any dealership carrying these products as far away from the Harley brand as possible. Make these bikes best of class and make them affordable - the same as any product in the marketplace that you want to sell a lot of.

But bottom-line, do not call it a Harley and downplay any association to the parent company whatsoever.

The Harley-Davidson brand is toxic to future growth. Trying to change this core issue is a waste of time and money.
Click to expand...
"WOOHOO I BOUGHT BEER!" Indeed......ME TOO!!!

Maybe (re)brand the the new division "Sportster - by Harley Davidson."

Revive and release a Bronx with orange and black XR750 cosmetic flourish, emphasizing the Sportster brand aspect. Yeah, Made (really just assembled) in USA but start from there. Use quality name-brand electronic, suspension and brake components, build a robust accessory catalog focused on customizing its capabilities as well as fashion like Triumph does and go from there.

Ditch the stupid belt too. It's the motorcycle equivalent of stretch pants and belongs on the HD mobility scooter. Working on an MC means getting at least a little bit dirty. Even once in 5000 km. Visceral all the way!

It would delineate the tribes and give the new introduction a chance in the marketplace while hopefully capitalizing on it's connection to brand heritage.

Maybe it's the Couchiching Marzien talking, but I could see myself buying that.
 
I have no idea what this CEO accomplished. Maybe the Panamerica, which did help them diversify. Lots of riders have been up the Dempster on them.
I'm not 100% sure it's a tech issue, for what the bikes are, they are fine. Maybe improve quality and I dunno maybe pricing.
I think them going back to racing was a good thing, we'll see if it lasts.
 
Lightcycle said:
A lot of newer Harleys have quite good tech in them, the Pan Am and VRod were easily best-of-class. It's the price point and toxic culture that did those models in.
Click to expand...
Were they? My (admittedly hazy) memory of the V-Rod is that it was underwhelming and a bit of a joke, not improving on the 15+ year old VMax that sold for about half the price.

My sense is the Pan Am was much, much better and got a lot of accolades for being 'surprisingly good for a Harley', but didn't quite match up to the GS, Africa Twin, Multistrada et al in the hyper-competitive luxo-barge ADV segment. An excellent first effort, but as you say, a tough sell to all but a very small segment of riders simultaneously interested in HD as a brand but still looking for something outside their traditional offerings.

Lightcycle said:
As for branding, it can work both ways. Don't call it a Harley, but everyone knows that it's HD money backing R+D, so it's not a totally unknown brand.

The bottom line is you don't want your traditional HD sales people and their toxic userbase anywhere near these bikes, poisoning prospective buyers and sabotaging sales.
Click to expand...
It'll be interesting to see if HD can navigate through their inevitable volume shrinkage. I still see a market for aging early Millennials who grew up watching Jesse James and the similar flipped-up-ball-cap-and-too-many-tattoos crowd, a more macho subgenre of hipsters. I have an acquaintance, for example, who played drums in a pop-punk band in the early '00s, has full sleeve and neck tattoos, and now manages a small office. He bought himself a crazy expensive blacked out dresser (no idea the model, it's the one with the weird high headlights, not the old-school triple headlights like a cop bike), and has fully taken on the brand identity. I personally think it's possibly the least interesting motorcycle in all of creation, but he absolutely loves it and the HD swagger that he gets from it. I think there's enough of that type out there to keep HD afloat, but nowhere near enough to maintain the massive sales that dentists in chaps brought. Capitalism doesn't like a contraction, though, so we'll see how it shakes out...
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