Gridlock Cameras

[nobbie48]

I heard some skuttlebutt regarding gridlock cameras coming to Toronto. While the idea has some merit I wonder what one is expected to do when one can't enter the intersection on a green because of blockage on the other side. Then the light turns red and a few spaces open up but are taken by cross traffic turners. Your light turns green and there's no place to go. How long do you wait?

Short of taking a detour you either hold up traffic at the green light or risk a gridlock ticket.

There are a lot of intersections in TO where you have to assert yourself through.

 

[GreyGhost]

The easy answer for your problem is no right on red on major streets. It works in Montreal, it could work in Toronto.

As much as it pains me to admit it, I actually love what hamilton did with King and Main (each one direction with timed lights so if you drive the speed limit you catch all greens). Before making up rules that will make gridlock much worse, Toronto needs to seriously rethink its traffic flows and get the cars out there moving. It's not the best idea, but maybe something like overhead/underground walkways at yonge and dundas instead of that retarded scramble intersection stopping all traffic for minutes.

 

[geoff-9]

maybe something like underground walkways at yonge and dundas instead of that retarded scramble intersection stopping all traffic for minutes.

dont we already have these, and yes those scramble lights are annoying.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

I heard some skuttlebutt regarding gridlock cameras coming to Toronto. While the idea has some merit I wonder what one is expected to do when one can't enter the intersection on a green because of blockage on the other side. Then the light turns red and a few spaces open up but are taken by cross traffic turners. Your light turns green and there's no place to go. How long do you wait?

Short of taking a detour you either hold up traffic at the green light or risk a gridlock ticket.

There are a lot of intersections in TO where you have to assert yourself through.

Your light turns green and the cross traffic turners, who are still sitting in the intersection because they didn't wait for space, will get a ticket.

 

[nobbie48]

The easy answer for your problem is no right on red on major streets. It works in Montreal, it could work in Toronto.
.

The cross traffic could have a green and make a legal right as space opens up. Without a no right on red law they can grab any opening. Through traffic gets the dirty end of the stick.

 

[fastar1]

I heard some skuttlebutt regarding gridlock cameras coming to Toronto. While the idea has some merit I wonder what one is expected to do when one can't enter the intersection on a green because of blockage on the other side. Then the light turns red and a few spaces open up but are taken by cross traffic turners. Your light turns green and there's no place to go. How long do you wait?

Short of taking a detour you either hold up traffic at the green light or risk a gridlock ticket.

There are a lot of intersections in TO where you have to assert yourself through.

You wait until there's space. It's like rocket science, except not.

 

[fastar1]

The cross traffic could have a green and make a legal right as space opens up. Without a no right on red law they can grab any opening. Through traffic gets the dirty end of the stick.

That depends on when traffic moves forward ahead, sometimes turning traffic gets screwed.

 

[nobbie48]

You wait until there's space. It's like rocket science, except not.

So sit through 20-30 green lights? Then do you get nailed for impeding traffic? Try driving on St Clair during rush hour.

 

[nobbie48]

That depends on when traffic moves forward ahead, sometimes turning traffic gets screwed.

They can go on the red or green so have an edge. If anyone races for the spot it could be a HTA 172.

 

[nobbie48]

Your light turns green and the cross traffic turners, who are still sitting in the intersection because they didn't wait for space, will get a ticket.

My point is that if cross traffic completes the turn into the last space, through traffic comes to a halt. The reality is there isn't enough road space for cars so we are forced to overload the system, Then we get fined for it. How do you not break the law?

You either impede traffic behind you or cross traffic.

Another car law from the bicycle group.

 

[fastar1]

They can go on the red or green so have an edge. If anyone races for the spot it could be a HTA 172.

They can't turn right on red if there's a vehicle on the other side of the intersection waiting for a spot to clear. That car has the right of way, not the turning car. People who do that basically exploit the good driving habits of those who refuse to block the intersection, thereby encouraging people to block it.
It's like people who cruise in the left lane forcing people to pass on the right, it boils down to lack of enforcement.

 

[Aslan]

Your light turns green and the cross traffic turners, who are still sitting in the intersection because they didn't wait for space, will get a ticket.

I believe the are exempt under subsection 2. Amusingly, the municipal by-law isn't to be easily found. Given that the tickets are occasionally given we would assume there is one and it applies to all signalized intersections as per sub (3).

In my experience, even in the worst of times, on a horrible road like Jarvis, at least one vehicle gets through per cycle, usually more. The right-on-red people are rarely an issue because they have to wait for the pedestrians to clear before they start.

I believe that as long as the other side of the intersection is at least crawling, the first vehicle to get a green should go, even if they expect to be crawling out of the way as the light goes red.

As long as these cameras are to be reviewed by people with a little common sense, I'm all for them. The rude drivers who change lanes in the intersection to skirt the rules, or turn into the wrong lane would be my second target, if the CBC interview I heard is to be believed, their first target is illegal turners, sounds good to me. The argument is, posting officers to write those tickets is cost prohibitive and probably makes the traffic problems worse while they block a lane to do so, but knowing a camera will catch it 100 percent of the time will prevent it.


Blocking intersection
145. (1) The council of a municipality may by by-law prohibit a driver or street car operator approaching, at an intersection, a traffic control signal showing a circular green or green arrow indication from entering the intersection unless traffic in front of him or her is moving in a manner that would reasonably lead him or her to believe he or she can clear the intersection before the signal indication changes to a circular red indication. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 145 (1).
Idem
(2) A by-law passed under subsection (1) does not apply to a driver or street car operator who enters an intersection for the purpose of turning to the right or left into an intersecting highway and signals his or her intention to make the turn prior to entering the intersection. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 145 (2).
Idem
(3) A by-law passed under subsection (1) shall apply to all signalized intersections of highways under the jurisdiction of the municipality. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 145 (3).

 

[spray____]

I wonder what one is expected to do when one can't enter the intersection on a green because of blockage on the other side. Then the light turns red and a few spaces open up but are taken by cross traffic turners. Your light turns green and there's no place to go. How long do you wait?

That train of thought is what's causing all the congestion. Everyone thinks, "there's no room for me, but if I don't go someone else will and I'll still be stuck here!" Then they end up stick in the intersection and when the light changes they block traffic in the other direction. Then right before it switches back the next dickhead says, "there's no room for me, but if I don't go someone else will and I'll still be stuck here!".

I commute and walk around the downtown core on a very regular basis, and if you're just calm and wait you'll get through. Nothing grinds my gears more than a car (or sometimes 3) that enter an intersection they can't exit and end up blocking the perpendicular lanes.

I'm all for cameras and tickets for the selfish idiots.

 

[GreyGhost]

That train of thought is what's causing all the congestion. Everyone thinks, "there's no room for me, but if I don't go someone else will and I'll still be stuck here!" Then they end up stick in the intersection and when the light changes they block traffic in the other direction. Then right before it switches back the next dickhead says, "there's no room for me, but if I don't go someone else will and I'll still be stuck here!".

I commute and walk around the downtown core on a very regular basis, and if you're just calm and wait you'll get through. Nothing grinds my gears more than a car (or sometimes 3) that enter an intersection they can't exit and end up blocking the perpendicular lanes.

I'm all for cameras and tickets for the selfish idiots.

I would be inclined to agree, but in my experience, almost every time the person going straight through the green waits for a spot to open up, a person turns right on red and scoops the spot.

 

[awyala]

I heard some skuttlebutt regarding gridlock cameras coming to Toronto. While the idea has some merit I wonder what one is expected to do when one can't enter the intersection on a green because of blockage on the other side. Then the light turns red and a few spaces open up but are taken by cross traffic turners. Your light turns green and there's no place to go. How long do you wait?

Short of taking a detour you either hold up traffic at the green light or risk a gridlock ticket.

There are a lot of intersections in TO where you have to assert yourself through.

Saw a cop do it at Yonge and Adelaide last night. Just hung his cruiser out blocking northbound for their entire green light.

 

[spray____]

I would be inclined to agree, but in my experience, almost every time the person going straight through the green waits for a spot to open up, a person turns right on red and scoops the spot.

Fair enough. Maybe we do need no right on red as well. The only problem I see with that is there are so many pedestrians crossing on greens it can be impossible to make a right turn. I've been caught turning south from bloor onto yonge a few times and it's basically 1 turn per light.

 

[awyala]

Quite a few no-right-on-red signs popping up and trouble spots. Universally applied it can actually cause more congestion, but ad hoc, as is being done now may be the best basis which to proceed.

Same is true with intersection cams. The intersection itself should also be marked so it is clear when your causing an infraction. Yellow hatching is standard.

Again, applied on a case by case basis this works, but the problem is sheer volume. Nothing will really get markedly better....just a little more civil.

There is no going back to the good 'ol days of sleepy suburb commutes in the 80s and 90s.

It's over! Now it's down to lifestyle choice.

A couple lifestyle choices for ya:

1) The hipster / neo yuppie: Tiny downtown condo / victorian fixxer up house share, scooter / bike, tight jeans or business pants (with sheen), pointy shoes with inadaquate sole, spends 50% salary on nights out drinking and eating, pompous peppy swagger while glancing daggers at cars stuck in gridlock.

Pros: Self reighteous psuedo religious confidence. Fun and trendy lifestyle.
Cons: Seemingly undernourished - or too much cardio. Not a sustainable lifestyle after late 20s / early 30s.
Tax status: Doesn't make enough to be taxed.

2) The mid level management commuter cattle: Cookie cutter sleepy suburb McMansion (2500 sqft +), spends 50% of daily free time commuting and catching up on fictional novels or career development learning texts, boring Aldo discount shoes with rubber soles, lifeless sluggish stride, often suit pants do not match blazer, generic poorly sized Moores over coat, pride eminates from home decor, backyard bbq and recorded tv shows waiting on DVR at home for their return.

Pros: Great weekend family life!
Cons: Robotic weekday life. Seemingly poorly, yet overly nourished - left over pack lunches and fast food.
Tax status: Getting hit hard in the 40% bracket. Doesn't realize GO Train and TTC is another form of tax. Property tax, etc etc. the list goes on.

3) The rich bastard: Either a downtown 2000 sq ft home or a suburban mansion. Never has to be anywhere on anyone else's clock...they set the meetings - people have to be there for them! Able to ditch their Ferrari in traffic to catch a plane to New York and will "deal with it later". Spends as much money on their mobile home (luxury car) as they do on their second cottage or home. Enjoys commutes in luxury and able to work from any location so it really doesn't matter. Traffic is just an excuse to spend more time in heated leather seats. Clothes, tailored. Pride - beaming! Children's age? Doesn't know.

Pros: Doesn't give a ****. Very well fed on lunch meeting diet.
Cons: Money doesn't always compensate for a poor family life
Tax status: Only accountant knows. Pays about the same as hipsters.


4) The working "commuter": Being in traffic is their job. Bills clients or customers for traffic and parking tickets. Paid to be in traffic so could really care less. Attire: uniform or UFC related. Pride based in having a better family life, material possessions and income than everyone other than the rich bastard. Likely has 4 cars, a cottage, an ATV and seadoo and 6 kids and savings! Oddly enough has somehow self educated on current affairs better than hipster and cattle commuter ever thought "working commuter" could.

Pros: It don't make no difference either way. Secretly he is kicking cattle commuters *** so hard!
Cons: Not the job for everyone. Diet is overly car compatable.
Tax status: Clever as rich bastard's accountant. Pays as much as hipsters. Passes on all fines onto client / middle managent types.

5) The balanced commuter:......too tailored to stereotype...but a motorbike has something to do with it!

No room left for the calm, post secondary educated suburban midlevel sedan commuter. That lifestyle is over!

 

[nfq]

Quite a few no-right-on-red signs popping up and trouble spots. Universally applied it can actually cause more congestion, but ad hoc, as is being done now may be the best basis which to proceed.

Same is true with intersection cams. The intersection itself should also be marked so it is clear when your causing an infraction. Yellow hatching is standard.

Again, applied on a case by case basis this works, but the problem is sheer volume. Nothing will really get markedly better....just a little more civil.

There is no going back to the good 'ol days of sleepy suburb commutes in the 80s and 90s.

It's over! Now it's down to lifestyle choice.

A couple lifestyle choices for ya:

1) The hipster / neo yuppie: Tiny downtown condo / victorian fixxer up house share, scooter / bike, tight jeans or business pants (with sheen), pointy shoes with inadaquate sole, spends 50% salary on nights out drinking and eating, pompous peppy swagger while glancing daggers at cars stuck in gridlock.

Pros: Self reighteous psuedo religious confidence. Fun and trendy lifestyle.
Cons: Seemingly undernourished - or too much cardio. Not a sustainable lifestyle after late 20s / early 30s.
Tax status: Doesn't make enough to be taxed.

2) The mid level management commuter cattle: Cookie cutter sleepy suburb McMansion (2500 sqft +), spends 50% of daily free time commuting and catching up on fictional novels or career development learning texts, boring Aldo discount shoes with rubber soles, lifeless sluggish stride, often suit pants do not match blazer, generic poorly sized Moores over coat, pride eminates from home decor, backyard bbq and recorded tv shows waiting on DVR at home for their return.

Pros: Great weekend family life!
Cons: Robotic weekday life. Seemingly poorly, yet overly nourished - left over pack lunches and fast food.
Tax status: Getting hit hard in the 40% bracket. Doesn't realize GO Train and TTC is another form of tax. Property tax, etc etc. the list goes on.

3) The rich bastard: Either a downtown 2000 sq ft home or a suburban mansion. Never has to be anywhere on anyone else's clock...they set the meetings - people have to be there for them! Able to ditch their Ferrari in traffic to catch a plane to New York and will "deal with it later". Spends as much money on their mobile home (luxury car) as they do on their second cottage or home. Enjoys commutes in luxury and able to work from any location so it really doesn't matter. Traffic is just an excuse to spend more time in heated leather seats. Clothes, tailored. Pride - beaming! Children's age? Doesn't know.

Pros: Doesn't give a ****. Very well fed on lunch meeting diet.
Cons: Money doesn't always compensate for a poor family life
Tax status: Only accountant knows. Pays about the same as hipsters.


4) The working "commuter": Being in traffic is their job. Bills clients or customers for traffic and parking tickets. Paid to be in traffic so could really care less. Attire: uniform or UFC related. Pride based in having a better family life, material possessions and income than everyone other than the rich bastard. Likely has 4 cars, a cottage, an ATV and seadoo and 6 kids and savings! Oddly enough has somehow self educated on current affairs better than hipster and cattle commuter ever thought "working commuter" could.

Pros: It don't make no difference either way. Secretly he is kicking cattle commuters *** so hard!
Cons: Not the job for everyone. Diet is overly car compatable.
Tax status: Clever as rich bastard's accountant. Pays as much as hipsters. Passes on all fines onto client / middle managent types.

5) The balanced commuter:......too tailored to stereotype...but a motorbike has something to do with it!

No room left for the calm, post secondary educated suburban midlevel sedan commuter. That lifestyle is over!

Haha. Man, your newsletter must be great! good show.

 

[markopas]

You wanna see a **** hole for some craptastic traffic that requires real enforcement is Bremner and York during rush hour.

 

[PLau]

When I went to NYC, they had painted lines crossing the whole intersection and signs all over saying not to stop in the intersection with cameras everywhere on major streets and guess what? Thats what makes NYC's traffic better than Toronto even with the massive amount of jaywalkers everywhere you go.
At 5PM on a weekday afternoon rush hour, everything was moving at a decent pace.