Fighting a careless driving charge?

[Zivo]

Heres my situation: I was riding last September at night, and on a country road in a dark corner I hit some gravel and sand (from construction up the street) grabbed front brake and the bike stood up and I ended up in a ditch.

I was in the hospital with pretty bad injuries, around the 2nd day in the hospital a police officer came in and issued me a careless driving ticket. I might be remembering wrong (I was on a lot of drugs) but he said that it was a mandatory ticket because I left the road, and that he hinted at not showing up to the court date.

I have a court date in 2 months, i'm wondering if I need a lawyer or legal assistance. I'm looking to get this dismissed or reduced greatly, i'm not looking to take a huge hit on insurance next year.

Any advice or opinions would be really appreciated, I've never been in a court ever.

 

[Krime]

You need legal assistance without a doubt. This is NOT something you should try to take on yourself, especially if you've never been to court.

When I was in a motorcycle accident 12 years ago a similar situation happened but the ticket was not as severe. I went to court on my own, and it was a disaster. The cop and the JP teamed up against me with intimidation tactics. I brought my own evidence (photos) and since I didn't know the proper legal protocols I couldn't use it as evidence. I ended up pleading guilty with a reduced fine, but I was extremely frustrated with myself for thinking I could go it alone.

Learn from my mistake, especially with the severity of your ticket, and todays motorcycle insurance rates. You need it off your record completely – no plea bargaining.

 

[Zivo]

You need legal assistance without a doubt. This is NOT something you should try to take on yourself, especially if you've never been to court.

When I was in a motorcycle accident 12 years ago a similar situation happened but the ticket was not as severe. I went to court on my own, and it was a disaster. The cop and the JP teamed up against me with intimidation tactics. I brought my own evidence (photos) and since I didn't know the proper legal protocols I couldn't use it as evidence. I ended up pleading guilty with a reduced fine, but I was extremely frustrated with myself for thinking I could go it alone.

Learn from my mistake, especially with the severity of your ticket, and todays motorcycle insurance rates. You need it off your record completely – no plea bargaining.

I probably cant afford a lawyer though, right?

 

[hedo2002]

I probably cant afford a lawyer though, right?

Lawyers are no doubt expensive, BUT think about the potential ramifications. Listen to Krime. You get a conviction for Careless driving. Some insurers will consider this a MAJOR conviction. Therefore, your insurance can:

1. be canceled, or
2. increased by 50 - 100% depending upon your driving record etc. This increase will remain in effect for 3 - 7 years, (again depending upon your insurer).

So a lawyer, may cost you $3500, (although a paralegal will be much less), compared to say $750 - $1500 per year for 5 years, (taking average). Now which is "cheaper"?

The fact that there was gravel on the road, "may" be considered a mitigating factor, but the crown will argue there were likely construction ahead signs posted, and that you were "riding beyond your lights" otherwise you should have seen the gravel and taken appropriate action.

Okay just read your other thread on the crash and your comments on there. Your 18 and already have a minor conviction, (speeding ticket), from last year, so the crown may not be as inclined to cut you much of a break if you go at this yourself. Again depends upon your insurer but with a speeding conviction and Careless Driving conviction they will drop you like a hot potato and send you to the facility market, usually double what your currently paying, ($2800). Now of course you can "hope" they don't find out about the careless, BUT you have already had one accident with significant injuries. If you don't advise them and have another claim they will be more likely to deny coverage, meaning you could be on the hook for tens of thousands if not millions, (if you seriously hurt or kill someone).

Given the new info you NEED a lawyer, even if you have to sell the bike to pay for it, if your convicted it is highly unlikely you will be bale to afford insurance at over $5,000 per year anyway.

 

[conundrum]

How far did the bike end up off the road? Maybe a few people I know were lucky, but I know two people who went off with police & EMS involved, and neither were charged (I think). Part of it might have been the bike was in the ditch directly beside the road, vs a number of feet away from it (so speed wasn't a huge factor).

I also wonder if for those who ride with helmet cams, if you could submit the portion of the clip around the accident as evidence, to show you weren't speeding or riding carelessly prior to things going sideways. Granted I'm also not sure if that would mean you'd have to submit the full, uncropped clip (and/or potentially the entire memory card), which could land you with other tickets if they wanted to go over it with a find toothed comb (eg. every time you went 1km/h over limit).

 

[GreyGhost]

Sadly, you can be under the limit and still guilty of careless driving. If you knew (or should have known) that there was a good chance there was gravel in the corners (think southwood or snake road), the safe speed may be well under the posted speed limit. You need to be riding at a speed where you can adapt to changing road conditions, if your speed does not allow for anything other than perfect pavement and no obstacles, then you are riding carelessly. Don't get me wrong, I speed and have made mistakes before, but the point is careless driving has very little to do with posted speeds.

 

[hedo2002]

Sadly, you can be under the limit and still guilty of careless driving. If you knew (or should have known) that there was a good chance there was gravel in the corners (think southwood or snake road), the safe speed may be well under the posted speed limit. You need to be riding at a speed where you can adapt to changing road conditions, if your speed does not allow for anything other than perfect pavement and no obstacles, then you are riding carelessly. Don't get me wrong, I speed and have made mistakes before, but the point is careless driving has very little to do with posted speeds.

This exactly, I know a friend's young son was driving to school one morning in the winter, loss control of the vehicle and rolled it, (primarily due to the angle of the ditch), the cop on scene was preparing to charge him with careless. It just happened that his mom had came upon the scene before police and EMS arrived. She was an off duty firefighter. As a "favor" to her the cop gave him a ticket for unsafe lane change...lol You can get a ticket for careless for driving at 20 km/h in a 100 km/h zone and rear ending the car in front of you. As GreyGhost said it has more to do with your "driving" than it does your speed.

Conundrum: It would depend primarily on the crown and the charge your trying to defend against, with the video. If you submitted only a small portion of the video they "can" request the entire video to be submitted for their review, (so they can decide it's authenticity etc). But reading the OP's other post, (in general motorcycle subforum titled "should I give up riding"), it would appear he was riding alone when the collision occurred. Also seems it wasn't "gravel" per se, as much as it was a small rock that caused him to loose control. If he did have a video and it showed him riding over the legal limit, (given in the other thread he stated he had a ticket last year for speeding), may not be a good idea to submit it to the court. The crown, (if they really want a conviction), will likely use the video to show the OP has a history, (the video and the previous speeding conviction), of riding in a "careless manner."

 

[TorontoBoy]

Firstly, acknowledge that this is a serious charge. The fine is $200-$1,000 or 6mo in prison or both, license suspension of max 2 years, and then get castrated by the insurance industry.

My wife was charged with careless in a car crash at an intersection where the other driver went through the red. The charge was thrown out because the crown did not have disclosure and the cop did not show up in court. In fact 4 other cases were also thrown out.

Read: http://www.gtamotorcycle.com/vbforu...-you-want-to-fight-your-ticket-in-court-(new) It is old but useful.

Document everything. Your next step is asking for disclosure. Read the thread above, there is an opportune time to ask for disclosure, so you give them enough but not too much time. Once you get disclosure you will need to seek a lawyer. I think to get disclosure you need to go to the court location on the ticket and fill out a form requesting disclosure. Get a receipt as proof of your request.

While the fines for careless are high, the insurance industry will penalize you with up to 2x your insurance premium for 6 years. Work out the insurance premium and then call a lawyer. For us, this worked out to $9,600, so a lawyer seemed much cheaper. My insurance company, the Personal, uses 10 years of history for major incidents. Since we did not get disclosure after asking for it, we did not call a lawyer, but we were prepared to do so.

No witnesses, dark country road, corner, road construction at the time (you need to document this, find proof from the municipality you were riding), so you ran off the road. Preventable (from a motorcycle forum you get advice viewpoint), yes, but more unlucky than careless. I'm sure you'll have an excellent chance of getting off completely. If you plead guilty to something lower you'll be convicted and this will also affect your insurance for 6 years. It's best to think "all or nothing" on this charge.

 

[Matthew.Tremayne]

How far did the bike end up off the road? Maybe a few people I know were lucky, but I know two people who went off with police & EMS involved, and neither were charged (I think). Part of it might have been the bike was in the ditch directly beside the road, vs a number of feet away from it (so speed wasn't a huge factor).

I also wonder if for those who ride with helmet cams, if you could submit the portion of the clip around the accident as evidence, to show you weren't speeding or riding carelessly prior to things going sideways. Granted I'm also not sure if that would mean you'd have to submit the full, uncropped clip (and/or potentially the entire memory card), which could land you with other tickets if they wanted to go over it with a find toothed comb (eg. every time you went 1km/h over limit).

Remember when dude flew off on the 507 and we had to go searching... He was going at or under the limit and just grabbed too much front brake in a corner.... Wonder if he got charged, hopefully not.... Wild day, but the pizza was good when the delivery driver finally made it to the hospital lol.

 

[hedo2002]

Firstly, acknowledge that this is a serious charge. The fine is $200-$1,000 or 6mo in prison or both, license suspension of max 2 years, and then get castrated by the insurance industry.

My wife was charged with careless in a car crash at an intersection where the other driver went through the red. The charge was thrown out because the crown did not have disclosure and the cop did not show up in court. In fact 4 other cases were also thrown out.

Read: http://www.gtamotorcycle.com/vbforu...-you-want-to-fight-your-ticket-in-court-(new) It is old but useful.

Document everything. Your next step is asking for disclosure. Read the thread above, there is an opportune time to ask for disclosure, so you give them enough but not too much time. Once you get disclosure you will need to seek a lawyer. I think to get disclosure you need to go to the court location on the ticket and fill out a form requesting disclosure. Get a receipt as proof of your request.

While the fines for careless are high, the insurance industry will penalize you with up to 2x your insurance premium for 6 years. Work out the insurance premium and then call a lawyer. For us, this worked out to $9,600, so a lawyer seemed much cheaper. My insurance company, the Personal, uses 10 years of history for major incidents. Since we did not get disclosure after asking for it, we did not call a lawyer, but we were prepared to do so.

No witnesses, dark country road, corner, road construction at the time (you need to document this, find proof from the municipality you were riding), so you ran off the road. Preventable (from a motorcycle forum you get advice viewpoint), yes, but more unlucky than careless. I'm sure you'll have an excellent chance of getting off completely. If you plead guilty to something lower you'll be convicted and this will also affect your insurance for 6 years. It's best to think "all or nothing" on this charge.

All SOLID advice OP. even though the officer at the time, "suggested" he/she "may" not show for court, do NOT count on this. It will depend on where the collision occurred, some forces now penalize officer's for no shows for court. Also get your disclosure request in NOW, (you stated your court date is in 2 months), the collision occurred last year, have you had a first attendance with the crown yet? If you wait too close to the court date the JP "can" allow the crown to hand you disclosure, in the court room and adjourn the case for a couple of hours, (although I highly doubt the JP would do that on such a serious charge).

The crown will no doubt offer a reduced charge, this is where legal rep can be of real help, if you have a lawyer, they "tend" to offer something less. IF you do decide to "go it alone" remember that if you refuse the reduced charge the crown will stick with the careless. Don't think, this is simple if I tell the JP there was gravel they will let me off, remember this will be perhaps, (If you fought the speeding ticket) your second time in court it will be the crowns thousands if not tens of thousands, same with the officer and the JP. Your chances of "being better than them" is pretty remote.

I am fortunate the very few tickets I have ever gotten I have always won... why because as an ex copper, I know the system and what is required by the crown and what I can and should or shouldn't say in court. I know what evidence I NEED to show a reasonable doubt.

 

[Zivo]

I talked to my parents and they said the cop said he had no evidence and wouldn't fight it in court. I remember him being very sympathetic and not looking to nail me for careless, rather it was a mandatory ticket he had to issue.

A paralegal is gonna cost around a grand.

They have no evidence, I have evidence and pictures from the accident of all the gravel and sand and rocks and dirt covering the road.

The officer stated that I must have not been going that fast because I was only 5 feet away from the road with no signs of skidding or trying to suddenly stop.

I honestly think I can go alone.

What do you think?

 

[hedo2002]

I talked to my parents and they said the cop said he had no evidence and wouldn't fight it in court. I remember him being very sympathetic and not looking to nail me for careless, rather it was a mandatory ticket he had to issue.

A paralegal is gonna cost around a grand.

They have no evidence, I have evidence and pictures from the accident of all the gravel and sand and rocks and dirt covering the road.

The officer stated that I must have not been going that fast because I was only 5 feet away from the road with no signs of skidding or trying to suddenly stop.

I honestly think I can go alone.

What do you think?

Good luck. I am sure your parents are correct. The officer has discretion, it is never "mandatory" to write a serious charge. Let us know how you make out.

 

[Zivo]

Good luck. I am sure your parents are correct. The officer has discretion, it is never "mandatory" to write a serious charge. Let us know how you make out.

He didn't want to but his boss/sergeant made him do it as a precaution.

 

[meme]

For the money I would hire a professional to fight it, but that's your choice.

False economy if you lose (listen to hedo, professionals know what to say and when). IF you lose then you will be paying for this awhile.

 

[redridernl]

You asked for advice. Everyone who replied said get a lawyer. People agreeing on the internet is a rarity and not to be taken lightly. Maybe you'll do fine on your own, maybe not. Seems like you've got your mind made up and you're looking for someone to validate your opinion.

 

[kiwi]

Lawyers are no doubt expensive, BUT think about the potential ramifications. Listen to Krime. You get a conviction for Careless driving. Some insurers will consider this a MAJOR conviction. Therefore, your insurance can:

1. be canceled, or
2. increased by 50 - 100% depending upon your driving record etc. This increase will remain in effect for 3 - 7 years, (again depending upon your insurer).

So a lawyer, may cost you $3500, (although a paralegal will be much less), compared to say $750 - $1500 per year for 5 years, (taking average). Now which is "cheaper"?

The fact that there was gravel on the road, "may" be considered a mitigating factor, but the crown will argue there were likely construction ahead signs posted, and that you were "riding beyond your lights" otherwise you should have seen the gravel and taken appropriate action.

Okay just read your other thread on the crash and your comments on there. Your 18 and already have a minor conviction, (speeding ticket), from last year, so the crown may not be as inclined to cut you much of a break if you go at this yourself. Again depends upon your insurer but with a speeding conviction and Careless Driving conviction they will drop you like a hot potato and send you to the facility market, usually double what your currently paying, ($2800). Now of course you can "hope" they don't find out about the careless, BUT you have already had one accident with significant injuries. If you don't advise them and have another claim they will be more likely to deny coverage, meaning you could be on the hook for tens of thousands if not millions, (if you seriously hurt or kill someone).

Given the new info you NEED a lawyer, even if you have to sell the bike to pay for it, if your convicted it is highly unlikely you will be bale to afford insurance at over $5,000 per year anyway.

Very valid points, take note of hedo2002's suggestions. Once on your record, and the insurance industry here, it will be brutal. btw - "your" should have been "you're" in the above text ;-)

 

[kiwi]

I talked to my parents and they said the cop said he had no evidence and wouldn't fight it in court. I remember him being very sympathetic and not looking to nail me for careless, rather it was a mandatory ticket he had to issue.

A paralegal is gonna cost around a grand.

They have no evidence, I have evidence and pictures from the accident of all the gravel and sand and rocks and dirt covering the road.

The officer stated that I must have not been going that fast because I was only 5 feet away from the road with no signs of skidding or trying to suddenly stop.

I honestly think I can go alone.

What do you think?

if you go alone, read up as I believe there is a protocol to follow if you are trying to provide evidence in court. You just dont show up with photos etc.

 

[matthew]

I talked to my parents and they said the cop said he had no evidence and wouldn't fight it in court. I remember him being very sympathetic and not looking to nail me for careless, rather it was a mandatory ticket he had to issue.

A paralegal is gonna cost around a grand.

They have no evidence, I have evidence and pictures from the accident of all the gravel and sand and rocks and dirt covering the road.

The officer stated that I must have not been going that fast because I was only 5 feet away from the road with no signs of skidding or trying to suddenly stop.

I honestly think I can go alone.

What do you think?

Are your parents lawyers?

Police are considered "expert witnesses" in court; When its your word vs theirs, their word wins UNLESS you can mount an excellent defense.

 

[samurai]

Did you request for disclosure? You can decide next steps based on what's in the disclosure. At this point I would recommend you go yourself If you don't have disclosure and date is coming up. paralegal will not be able to much much more than you yourself if no disclosure and date is approaching fast.

 

[MarcosSantiago]

Are your parents lawyers?

Police are considered "expert witnesses" in court; When its your word vs theirs, their word wins UNLESS you can mount an excellent defense.

But if the officer did not see the accident... he would not take the stand.

Back in the day, a friend had the same ticket, the cop wrote the ticket after the fact based on the statement of a witness. My friend went to Redline. Forch told my friend that if the witness did not show up, the ticket would be dismissed, even if the cop was present. That's exactly what happened.

In this case, I think the OP should ask a paralegal for a free consultation, then request disclosure himself before making up his mind (go by himrself vs. get representation).