Eglinton LRT

[TK4]

So the manure hit the fan today with Toronto City Council over the LRT. Metrolinx can't (or won't) explain why they are over 3 years behind schedule with no finish date in sight. The provincial minister Caroline Mulroney had nothing to say either. The city is demanding an inquiry and rightfully so. The LRT has become an embarrassing and expensive joke - time's up for some answers.

 

[GreyGhost]

Big surprise. It's interesting how cost overruns in p3 projects all end up on the public dime. Let the partners go bankrupt and maybe future partners will be better behaved.

You left out that CM was throwing out buzzwords like "safety" as you can use things like that to justify any cost or delay.

 

[TK4]

Big surprise. It's interesting how cost overruns in p3 projects all end up on the public dime. Let the partners go bankrupt and maybe future partners will be better behaved.

You left out that CM was throwing out buzzwords like "safety" as you can use things like that to justify any cost or delay.

The budget proposed for the Relief Line has already been doubled and the shovels have barely been put in the ground. I smell another clusterf*ck.

 

[nobbie48]

Big surprise. It's interesting how cost overruns in p3 projects all end up on the public dime. Let the partners go bankrupt and maybe future partners will be better behaved.

You left out that CM was throwing out buzzwords like "safety" as you can use things like that to justify any cost or delay.

If CM had ever worked in major construction she would know that safety has evolved since the big depression. It's not a new idea.

The problem with construction companies is that a lot of them don't own physical assets. They lease equipment, rent space, sub out stuff. Accounts receivables are about the only thing on the table if it comes to a major hammering.

Then start all over with a lot of the same people working under a different flag. It only gets worse.

The "Good Will" of the company name has value and could possibly be sold but little would go to the creditors.

 

[mimico_polak]

This is my world and what I’m involved in. I was part of the team that built the ECLRT tunnels and loved the experience.

The tunnelling is the ‘easy’ part of these types of projects. The stations….not so much.

One of the issues is COVID was obviously a major disruptor and extended everything. And the delays that happen are unfortunately an issue everywhere.

Things from permits, utility relocations, trees (as in the Osgoode Hall fiasco), traffic, and the list keeps going. All of these affect things and cause delays as everyone wants a piece of the pie.

Contractors know the game well and can claim a million and one things. Doesn’t mean they get it, but if you don’t ask you don’t get.

Not on the project now, but I’ve also heard of contractors in other countries doing P3 effectively hold the owner hostage.

‘Eff you pay me, or I won’t reach substantial completion’.

There’s a LOT of things that go into it, and there’s blame to go all around.

 

[klr_guy]

My elderly parents are still in my childhood home around Mt. Pleasant and Eglinton (go red knights!). It's been a cluster you know what.

 

[mimico_polak]

I can only imagine the stress on your parents @klr_guy … it is a massive disruption.

Once OL fires up fully….STFO of the city if you can. Total pooshow will be happening.

 

[sburns]

So the manure hit the fan today with Toronto City Council over the LRT. Metrolinx can't (or won't) explain why they are over 3 years behind schedule with no finish date in sight. The provincial minister Caroline Mulroney had nothing to say either. The city is demanding an inquiry and rightfully so. The LRT has become an embarrassing and expensive joke - time's up for some answers.

Answer from gov??? lololol. There will be an inquiry, a report, and all dragged out, that by the time a official non answer is produced eveyone will have moved on... stardard profile of our corrupt gov.

 

[ToSlow]

This is my world and what I’m involved in. I was part of the team that built the ECLRT tunnels and loved the experience.

The tunnelling is the ‘easy’ part of these types of projects. The stations….not so much.

One of the issues is COVID was obviously a major disruptor and extended everything. And the delays that happen are unfortunately an issue everywhere.

Things from permits, utility relocations, trees (as in the Osgoode Hall fiasco), traffic, and the list keeps going. All of these affect things and cause delays as everyone wants a piece of the pie.

Contractors know the game well and can claim a million and one things. Doesn’t mean they get it, but if you don’t ask you don’t get.

Not on the project now, but I’ve also heard of contractors in other countries doing P3 effectively hold the owner hostage.

‘Eff you pay me, or I won’t reach substantial completion’.

There’s a LOT of things that go into it, and there’s blame to go all around.

No stress, Get a shovel go down at a million bucks an hr. Then watch the fire works

 

[mimico_polak]

No stress, Get a shovel go down at a million bucks an hr. Then watch the fire works

The guys doing the work qualify for higher rates due to the nature of the contract.

150-220k/year to swing a shovel.

I’m an idiot for going the Eng route.

 

[ToSlow]

The guys doing the work qualify for higher rates due to the nature of the contract.

150-220k/year to swing a shovel.

I’m an idiot for going the Eng route.

Now imagine that money and working 6months a yr.

 

[mimico_polak]

Now imagine that money and working 6months a yr.

Don’t need to imagine it. Lived it, loved the money, and was happy I never came home to changed locks or some dude taking my place.

Thankfully all kids look like me.

 

[ToSlow]

Don’t need to imagine it. Lived it, loved the money, and was happy I never came home to changed locks or some dude taking my place.

Thankfully all kids look like me.

Ohh i know you lived it, you are probably smarter than most people and decided to go a different route.

Me I’m almost there now so a couple more yrs and I’m done.

I was lucky, my kids are grown and my wife and I have been together to long to look for anything else

 

[mimico_polak]

Ohh i know you lived it, you are probably smarter than most people and decided to go a different route.

Me I’m almost there now so a couple more yrs and I’m done.

I was lucky, my kids are grown and my wife and I have been together to long to look for anything else

I’d do it again once the kids are older and the wife doesn’t want me around the house lol

Hell some guys said the only reason they’re still married is because their wives don’t want them home….for whatever reason!

 

[ReSTored]

You would think that the agencies like Metrolinx would be able to learn from perceived well run and on budget transit projects elsewhere in the world.

Presto, the fare card system, is apparently one of the most expensive systems in use and prior to the decision to use it Hong Kong and London had had systems in use for years. But no, we have to procure at huge cost, make every mistake in the book that taxpayers are on the hook for, and then have a system that, at best, performs as well as what everyone else has installed at a much lower cost.

To be fair, the majority of the work Metrolinx is responsible for involves installing track and stations in urban areas and the logistics of this must be extraordinary complex and very very disruptive to local residents and commuters. However, mayor cities like Hong Kong and London are more densely populated and built up, expanding transit systems all the time and don't seem to have the same issues. Why?

In my experience with government procurement for mayor build projects extensive planning goes into RFP specification and design and there is a well defined "change order" that lays out how modifications to the specification are to be handled. Infrastructure Ontario has significant experience building hospitals as an example and most projects come in on time and substantially on budget. All of the Metrolinx contracts appear to be effectively cost plus, where the contractor knows full well that the agreed price is a joke, the qualified "low bid" is just a starting point and they have Metrolinx over a barrel when it comes time to claim increased compensation is required.

 

[sburns]

You would think that the agencies like Metrolinx would be able to learn from perceived well run and on budget transit projects elsewhere in the world.

My guess Metrolinx is just more gov layering, more top level heavy, and follow the same playbook who ever set them up so there isn't any new methods or leadership to do things differently. Fat gov contracts, contractors sink their teeth into with no will to work hard fast or efficient then needed, union interference, and missmangement of the work not getting done. My cousin is an electrician and worked on some of the York U expansion and witnessed first hand the nonsnese on these projects.

All they have to do is look at a city like Barcelona. They transformed that city back in 92 for the Olympics and had a great impact on the city which is now one of the top destinations in the world and is possibly similar in size to GTA. The metro system is constantly being updated because once in the ground they keep running the boring machines and they run them deep enough not to disrupt surface issues.

Imgine if we had 30 years of subway development. And building surface trasit route taking away from other vechicles is a joke, all of this should have been built underground and not following the same surface routes/roads above but targeted towards destinations.

 

[mimico_polak]

Two of the biggest differences between us…and places with actual world class transit are:

- population density. We will never have it while we sprawl out and everyone gets their white picket fence and big yard.

- politics plays way too much of a role in our transit system infrastructure and planning. Other cities have dedicated transit planners that are (in theory) separated from politics.

Take the SSE. It was 100% funded and ready to start, then Rob Ford came into office and said he wants subways, scrap hundreds of millions of dollars in costs because he wants it underground.

So now it’s a single stop subway. Stupid. Scrap the design and let’s do 4 stops. OK!

That’s a few hundred million more on consultants, studies, committees, and ground work gone with the flash of a pen.

If we want these things to be build properly and on time, you need strong contracts, even stronger lawyers, and lack of political interference in the design, location and execution of the actual contract.

 

[bastak]

Complex undertaking with huge scope (largest public transit project in Canada at the time by far) lumped into a single mega contract, exacerbated by:

• No enabling works contract prior to stations contract for relocation of utilities. The impact of this is massive. Excavation of stations is where (in the case of Yonge-Eglinton and some others) there is spaghetti of existing utility infrastructure. Which brings me on to the next point.
• Consultation and getting approvals from third parties (e.g. THESL, Bell, Toronto Water, etc) is completely on the Contractor. THESL infrastructure in the way? Start a consultation process, prepare concept designs, present, discuss options, prepare relocation plans, many, many review cycles, and finally after getting approval, make something happen in the field. This takes a long time and the risk is 100% on the Contractor (the consortium hired by Metrolinx to design & build the project). Some utility infrastructure is known (in concept design) and some is unknown (found during exploratory excavations / shallow excavation).
• TTC review and approval on all work in the vicinity of existing TTC infrastructure. Again, risk is 100% on the Contractor. The process takes months if not years to get approvals to start work (TTC does a technical/engineering review across various departments). This is especially cumbersome for very complex elements, e.g. the work to support/underpin a live subway that carries tens of thousands of passengers everyday.
• The contract between Metrolinx and the Contractor is woefully one-sided. Pretty much all the risk is on the Contractor. In my experience, more balanced contracts are generally more successful in delivery, one-sided contracts generally lead to conflict, delays.
• The contract is not well written. There are so many grey areas that are subject to interpretation. Leads to discussion and negotiation on every little deliverable. Exhausting.
• These massive P3 projects are consistently underbid by the Contractor. The estimating/planning departments never factor in 10 review cycles with THESL, or a year of consultation with TTC on a single design package - even if they did, management would not carry it. Subcontractor estimates are just estimates at bid time, once it comes to securing subs during construction, prices go up two or three fold in some cases. Contingency never covers that sort of escalation in pricing.
• Metrolinx is a relatively new entity. There are some excellent senior managers there, but a lack of experience at the lower rungs. There's often confused messaging or deferred decision-making in many meetings where senior management is not present.
• Generally, there's a severe lack of good (knowledgeable/experienced) people across the board (client, contractor, subcontractors/vendors. There is so much infrastructure work going on in the GTA that there just aren't enough skilled workers to support these projects. The good ones get burnt out and jump ship for better pay. And now with unaffordable housing, the younger talent (in their 20s and 30s) are looking elsewhere.
• There are so many other factors - those are the main ones that come to mind for me...

 

[250R-ICE]

Im in the Civil Engineering Design field. Mostly manage and design large scale road construction projects. Im always amazed on how long it takes us now to start a construction project. With all the studies, new regulations, property negotiations, utility relocations etc. When I started out in this field I recall it would take me a year to design and put out a large project out to tender. The construction would also take a year. These are large 2km 20 million dollor type projects. Now the same work on average takes 5 years to tender and 3 times as long to construct. What bothers me the most is all the red tape, approvals , so callect environmental protection etc we are doing now achieves the exact same result as in the past except we made the project 5x more expensive and 5x longer to build. So when it comes to the LRT being years behind schedule . Im not surprised. You know why other countries get things done faster. They dont bother with all the red tape issues. No half ass environmantal assessments, no issues with property. If they need need it they expropriate it. They dont waste years negotiating land for public infratstructure projects. Contractors have deadlines to meet. They get penalized if its delayed. They also get bonus's if they are ahead of schedule. Etc. Here in our area its all about public perception. We try to appease every one and it takes forever to ge anything built.

 

[nobbie48]

Two of the biggest differences between us…and places with actual world class transit are:

- population density. We will never have it while we sprawl out and everyone gets their white picket fence and big yard.

- politics plays way too much of a role in our transit system infrastructure and planning. Other cities have dedicated transit planners that are (in theory) separated from politics.

Take the SSE. It was 100% funded and ready to start, then Rob Ford came into office and said he wants subways, scrap hundreds of millions of dollars in costs because he wants it underground.

So now it’s a single stop subway. Stupid. Scrap the design and let’s do 4 stops. OK!

That’s a few hundred million more on consultants, studies, committees, and ground work gone with the flash of a pen.

If we want these things to be build properly and on time, you need strong contracts, even stronger lawyers, and lack of political interference in the design, location and execution of the actual contract.

But my aunt wants the station closer to where she lives. Oh and her favourite butcher is too far from his nearest station so move his as well. We need another study.

Why are you building roads to Scarborough? I never go there.