E-bike driver licencing | GTAMotorcycle.com

E-bike driver licencing

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nobbie48

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One of the infuriating things about E bike riders is that they seem to be in naive bubble of assumed innocence.

Full licencing could be problematic but going through my wallet I noticed my Pleasure Craft Operator Card. Why not something similar for E-bike riders?

One time cost of about $25.00 IIRC.

Doesn't expire

Minimal government involvement

Can be obtained by online test

In the case of boats many marinas can do the test or do it at a boat show, sportsman show etc so E-bike sellers could do it.

The boaters card basically makes the operator aware that there are laws and responsibilities, something the E-bikers don't seem to think about.

The test should mention to check sidewalk usage (Often a municipal thing), liabilities, and mention DUI means no E-bike.
 
Since you have to be a certain age, would make some sense. they wanted to licence bicycles a while back too.
 
There is no central registry of boating licenses. To check the validity of a card you have to call the issuing agency (if they still exist). I misplaced my card and told the issuing agency what my name was and a very small range for the card number (I was with other people when I got the license and they were handing out sequential numbers) and the issuing agency was unable to find me and wanted me to start again.

Given the general sketchiness associated with most of the e-bike industry, I expect the dealers would just toss a card in with your purchase as it is very difficult for police to confirm its validity.

Along similar lines, maybe they can take the G1 test. The MTO having a record of you possessing a G1 at some point is acceptable to ride a motorized vehicle. It would not need to be current and you could let it expire.
 
Riceburner said:
An M1 would be more appropriate, no?
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Sure, or if they felt like it they could make an e-bike version. The concept is a test regarding road use rules administered by the MTO. Having passed any of the X1 tests should be sufficient for e-bikes. Maybe a separate test isn't a bad idea so every test could have the T/F questions "you can take pedals off your ebike", "you can modify the speed/power of your ebike", "you can ride your ebike on sidewalks", "you can ride your ebike on trails using the electric motor". Those questions should be enough to make the majority of test takers fail.
 
There is already a license for low speed motorcycles. It's time that the government figures out that is exactly what ebikes are.
 
It's a good theory, but as GG said in practice it would be a mess.

The problem isn't licensing, it's the nature of e-bikes. In Europe they have lower power, lower speeds, and must be pedaled. Here, they're basically cheapo motorcycles (to mirror US rules). That's the problem.

I don't see why a power assisted bike should have more than 100W power, or why it should operate at all without pedaling.
 
fastar1 said:
or why it should operate at all without pedaling.
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Bingo. This one point alone would eliminate most of the DUI scooters as pedalling them approaches impossibility. Leaving power-assisted bicycles viable does help people with commuting. I'm not too concerned about the power output (500W IIRC) as the top speed is limited to 32 km/h. Use some kind of multiplier circuit (eg. to get 500W out, rider must put 100W in). Power assist ramps down as speed approaches 32. To exceed 32 you are on your own. I don't think there is any need for 500W but I don't see a big downside to 500W vs 100W from a safety or regulatory perspective. The 500 should allow anybody to ride up any hill in Toronto with moderate effort at a reasonable speed.

I wonder if any government has the stones to touch e-bike rules though. You would instantly make most of them illegal (and worthless outside of trailer parks) and drive quite a few businesses out of business overnight. Even if power-assist bikes remained legal, most people are lazy and comparatively few bikes will be sold.
 
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GreyGhost said:
Bingo. This one point alone would eliminate most of the DUI scooters as pedalling them approaches impossibility. Leaving power-assisted bicycles viable does help people with commuting. I'm not too concerned about the power output (500W IIRC) as the top speed is limited to 32 km/h. Use some kind of multiplier circuit (eg. to get 500W out, rider must put 100W in). Power assist ramps down as speed approaches 32. To exceed 32 you are on your own. I don't think there is any need for 500W but I don't see a big downside to 500W vs 100W from a safety or regulatory perspective. The 500 should allow anybody to ride up any hill in Toronto with moderate effort at a reasonable speed.

I wonder if any government has the stones to touch e-bike rules though. You would instantly make most of them illegal (and worthless outside of trailer parks) and drive quite a few businesses out of business overnight. Even if power-assist bikes remained legal, most people are lazy and comparatively few bikes will be sold.
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The way I look at it, e-bikes shouldn't be equivalent to bicycles with a bit more performance, they should be equivalent to bicycles with a bit less effort.

But definitely agree, the big problem is they don't need to be pedaled. But it's a problem that's impossible to fix because of only one hurdle; it needs the involvement of bureaucrats who have no interest in the issue.
 
GreyGhost said:
Bingo. This one point alone would eliminate most of the DUI scooters as pedalling them approaches impossibility. Leaving power-assisted bicycles viable does help people with commuting. I'm not too concerned about the power output (500W IIRC) as the top speed is limited to 32 km/h. Use some kind of multiplier circuit (eg. to get 500W out, rider must put 100W in). Power assist ramps down as speed approaches 32. To exceed 32 you are on your own. I don't think there is any need for 500W but I don't see a big downside to 500W vs 100W from a safety or regulatory perspective. The 500 should allow anybody to ride up any hill in Toronto with moderate effort at a reasonable speed.

I wonder if any government has the stones to touch e-bike rules though. You would instantly make most of them illegal (and worthless outside of trailer parks) and drive quite a few businesses out of business overnight. Even if power-assist bikes remained legal, most people are lazy and comparatively few bikes will be sold.
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Wynne is so pro electric I'm surprised she doesn't want a return to the electric chair. It's like the NRA challenging anything that isn't 100% pro gun.

If it runs on electricity it's all good and only angels ride them.
 
Great idea.....tell Winny she has a new cash grab to fill her pockets b4 she gets the boot . That will get the government off there as s.
 
JTR said:
There is already a license for low speed motorcycles. It's time that the government figures out that is exactly what ebikes are.
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Problem is 10 or 15 years ago when the laws were written an E-Bike was basically a bicycle with a battery assisted motor, and they looked like the bike below, and were ridden generally by casual cyclists who needed a little boost up some hills.

Ezee-Forza-3.jpg


Now, they look like this and are being ridden by motorcycle wannabees with no training and few if no consequences, or yes, the DUI crowd:

$_35.JPG
 
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I don't care about the wattage or speed. I want the riders to be accountable, insured, and QUALIFIED.

Anybody that can afford to lay out the money for an ebike, should be able to afford a real one, so why would anybody want ecrap? There are only a couple of real reasons. First is if they aren't allowed to have a license, so why should anyone be concerned about helping them skirt their punishment? Second reason would be enviro-yuppies I suppose, but why should that allow them to bypass the licensing system and HTA?

If adding licensing requirements scares off the green crowd, then that probably wasn't their motive anyway. And if it closes a few businesses that are literally marketing their products ability to get around road laws, I really couldn't give a **** to be honest.

I think there has been great progress in the market, and electric motorcycles could be good. But they must be licensed, and insured, plain and simple. I have yet to hear a single valid argument as to why they should not be.
 
JTR said:
I don't care about the wattage or speed. I want the riders to be accountable, insured, and QUALIFIED.

Anybody that can afford to lay out the money for an ebike, should be able to afford a real one, so why would anybody want ecrap? There are only a couple of real reasons. First is if they aren't allowed to have a license, so why should anyone be concerned about helping them skirt their punishment? Second reason would be enviro-yuppies I suppose, but why should that allow them to bypass the licensing system and HTA?

If adding licensing requirements scares off the green crowd, then that probably wasn't their motive anyway. And if it closes a few businesses that are literally marketing their products ability to get around road laws, I really couldn't give a **** to be honest.

I think there has been great progress in the market, and electric motorcycles could be good. But they must be licensed, and insured, plain and simple. I have yet to hear a single valid argument as to why they should not be.
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If by "electric motorcycles" you mean anything with a motor, then you're eliminating the potential benefit of electrically assisted bikes to help incentivize people to ride bikes. There is a potential market niche for bikes that perform a smidge better than bicycles but below the threshold where riders blast around like low powered motorcycles. Exploiting that niche could offer tons of benefits to society, and getting it right has all to do with watts, speed, and pedaling action.

Genuine e-assist bikes, like regular bikes, can't effectively be licensed. It's been tried, it failed, and it's been re-examined every few years when Toronto Council gets it's bike hate on. https://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=0be4970aa08c1410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD'

The problem is the current crop of e-bikes we see on the road are well beyond electric assist, they truly are electric motorcycles as you say. They are a different breed and they can certainly be licensed just as low speed motorcycles currently are. Again, it's all to do with watts, speed, and whether the user has to pedal.
 
I see more and more of these on my way to work. Putting down the road slowing traffic or flying the same speed as me(but they are on the sidewalk) How are they not regulated? Seems like a ticking time bomb. Guess like all things politics they will be reactive not proactive and a mother with a stroller will need to be hit, or an elderly person killed... sad really. Some have helmets on, some dont, some where bicycle hemtes some where chain saw hard hats and face shield... Some have skill some should take a short bus for life...

What really bugs me is that those that do not know the difference(none motorcyclists) think they are motorcycles and create a false spot light on the wrong vehicle putting the target on the ones that have proper gear, bikes, licensing, insurance...
 
As someone stated earlier it will take a tragedy for the enforcement to kick in/ At least 90% of the current criminal code and HTA, aren't enforced on a regular basis, until something happens, or many complaints are registered, to create an atmosphere where the brass ask officers to enforce a particular section or a blitz is put on.

TK4 said:
The problem isn't the laws, its enforcement. Neither the City of Toronto nor the province seem to have the nuggets -

https://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/...nnel=f4d4970aa08c1410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/driver/electric-bicycles.shtml

https://www1.toronto.ca/city_of_tor.../fact-sheet-123-new-and-emerging-vehicles.pdf
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I suspect that as electric vehicles become more mainstream, e-bikes will end up being bundled in with them. As it is they aren't supposed to be operated in designated bike lanes without being peddled, which they never are, so their basic classification ill ultimately have to change. we aren't there yet.
 
We went through a lot of similar issues in the mid 1970s when mopeds were first brought into Canada. All you had to have was some kind of drivers' licence (learners ?), a helmet, no plate or insurance.
The shop I worked at sold Honda PC50s, when we got the first crate (3 to a box) my boss said "assemble one and take it for a ride".
This was early March.
I cam back and told him "these are the biggest pieces of sh*t I've ever ridden - order more".
We sold over 350 that year, to every DUI that walked in the door.
Once the gov decided you need a plate and insurance, it all ground to a halt....
 
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