Down vs Primaloft

daught

daught

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I am looking to replace my fleece layers with down. I am sick and tired of wearing two fleeces when I ski. I want something light and most importantly something that doesn't feel restrictive when I am active. I picked up the Microtherm and Downlight. If it gets really cold I have the MEC Tremblant Vest. Depending on weather I intent to layer those three pieces on top of a thin base layer with RAB Momentum eVent shell on top.

I am really digging the size and weight of all these layers. They only fill my day pack halfway!

I was on some backpacking forums and they make it seem like down is almost worthless if you are active. Are these people exaggerating? Gear nuts can really stretch reality(lol like epic ski makes it seem you need 10 pairs of skis to match conditions and how much you had to eat for breakfast).

Another option that tempted me was MEC Uplink, which has 40G of primaloft. Would this be a better choice than the Microtherm considering it's close to my body?

I was looking at VB vests. Dunno if they are comfortable. I will experiment with some trash bags one of these days.
 
What type of skiing are you doing? What temps are you talking about? What's your perspiration profile like? I can downhill ski on the coldest day with a mid-weight base layer, a 300 weight polar fleece and a shell. And I still sweat on tough runs. XC I can ski in a lightweight base, a 100 weight fleece and a breathable shell with the pit vents open and still sweat. So it really depends I think.

Speaking strictly about Primaloft and down, down is near useless if it gets wet and it also tends to clump leaving cold-spots in your layer. So if you can manage your perspiration and precipitation effects, down will work for you if you get one with small compartments to limit clumping. If not, Primaloft is pretty close to down but works much better when wet. If it's very cold and you never sweat no matter how much you're working then I'd consider a poly base layer, a light fleece and a down or primaloft jacket. And I envy your ability to not sweat when hitting Franz's Run at Whistler..all..3400' vertical feet of is?? :-)
 
I do downhill. It's the chair lift ride that usually chills me. It's quite tough to dress for East coat. Most runs are too short to bother taking off a layer and the chair lift ride can take a while. On coldest days I used to get chilled with a ligh base layer, polartec thermal pro, and down vest underneath my old ski jacket. I am not a bad sweater, but I get got easily.

I was wondering if you can really saturate a down garment in a day or two of skiing. I have no doubt these concerns are legit for expeditions and extended use, but at the end of every day I have a hotel room.
 
invictus43 said:
What type of skiing are you doing? What temps are you talking about? What's your perspiration profile like? I can downhill ski on the coldest day with a mid-weight base layer, a 300 weight polar fleece and a shell. And I still sweat on tough runs.
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Same for me. OP, I'm the same as you as I get cold easily on the ride up. I wear a good fleece neckwarmer that I can use to either cover more/less depending on the temp and level I'm working and also use it kind of as a vent-block at the top of my jacket. Works well for me.
 
daught said:
I do downhill. It's the chair lift ride that usually chills me. It's quite tough to dress for East coat. Most runs are too short to bother taking off a layer and the chair lift ride can take a while. On coldest days I used to get chilled with a ligh base layer, polartec thermal pro, and down vest underneath my old ski jacket. I am not a bad sweater, but I get got easily.

I was wondering if you can really saturate a down garment in a day or two of skiing. I have no doubt these concerns are legit for expeditions and extended use, but at the end of every day I have a hotel room.
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Well, after an hour or so, if I'm working hard, I can shake off the perspiration from the inside of my shell. I have to hang it inside-out in the chalet to try to dry it out. So if that propagates into the down then it's soaked. So it is possible I think and you'd be stuck with a wet jacket for the rest of the day. But if you're not dealing with that level of perspiration then I think you're probably fine. It's a balancing act for me..vents open, vents closed, trying to regulate the moisture/temperature situation. The nice thing about Primaloft and fleece is that it will dry in a few minutes when wet. The lift is always a pain..gondolas are better but sometimes I find they're too hot after being outside and I have to open the windows..

I bought a "wind-proof" softshell this year for 0C to -10C to see if I can get better breathing without losing too much insulation. Below -10C -20C I'll go back to my gore-tex shell and polarfleece combo and if it's -15C and windy or lower I'll use my ski jacket with a fleece. If it's below -35C, I'm staying in the chalet!! :-)
 
Hardwrkr13 said:
I wear a good fleece neckwarmer that I can use to either cover more/less depending on the temp and level I'm working and also use it kind of as a vent-block at the top of my jacket. Works well for me.
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Yeah, neck warmers are great..I use it to cover my face when it gets below -15C or so. It makes a huge difference..really, the difference between going out and not going out. I rarely find my core is cold..usually face/neck and feet. I'm having my boots banged out a bit so hopefully that will help my feet out. Neck warmer does the rest. Oh, and work the skis!!!! :-)
 
The OR Sonic balaclava protects my neck and face really well.

I dont sweat nearly as much as you invictus. You might want give eVent a try. Tests show that it breathes a lot better than goretex. It also feels a lot lighter and thinner.

My weakest point, by far is my lower back. It's always cold for some reason. I recently scored polartec 200 bibs. Hopefully that will take care of my back. I really cant wait for temperatures to dip bellow -20 to test this stuff out.

Here is a nice insulation comparison:
-Standard down (550 fill power) is .70 clo/oz.
-Cimashield XP is .82 clo/oz.
-Current Primaloft One is .84 clo/oz
-Primaloft One Convexion is .92 clo/oz
-800+ fill power down is 1.68 clo/oz at the density used in most UL manufactures products such as Mont-bell's (2.16 kg/m^3).

I wonder when it comes to down how does density affect the insulation rating. What happens if you stuff twice as much down in the same volume?
 
I really love the Eddie Bauer inner layers. I have the First Ascent under layers and I just picked up a First Ascent down shirt to use as my inner layer to my boarding jacket. I've worn it while riding in this weather and its awesome.
 
daught said:
I dont sweat nearly as much as you invictus. You might want give eVent a try. Tests show that it breathes a lot better than goretex. It also feels a lot lighter and thinner.
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Honestly, gore-tex, for me, is wasted money for skiing. I don't need the waterproof and definitely need the venting. I may just consider the eVent. Thanks!

daught said:
My weakest point, by far is my lower back. It's always cold for some reason. I recently scored polartec 200 bibs. Hopefully that will take care of my back. I really cant wait for temperatures to dip bellow -20 to test this stuff out.
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Bibs are awesome. I don't have a pair, but man, they make so much sense. That wind up your back thing is gone. And your drawers stay up so you don't look like a thrasher kid.. :-)

There's no doubt down gives you the best insulation. It sounds like with your perspiration level, it'd be fine for you.
 
The ECWCS bibs are pretty good for $9. The only thing I dont like about them is the fact that they have big zips on both sides and the middle. WTF?!

Also I noticed you mentioned polypropylene. Any paticular reason you favor it over polyester? The old ECSCS has polypro shirts. I got one for $9 It's extremly warm for a base layer, wiks very very well but it fits me very poorly. The sleeves are way too short on a small, but then again that's the case for 90% of stuff. My long hands force me to go with medium all the time. Most of my clothes are quite loose around my core. I bet that's contribuites to my back being cold.

RAB seems to have answered my calls to the sky wondering "Why cant they add an extra inch?".
 
Down is not useless when wet, the idea that it still offers some insulation is why its been popular for centuries. I'm a big fan of primaloftjust because it doesnt settle out like down. All down is not created equal, lots of cheaper chinese "down" is just small feathers.

I ski in the east mostly and chill out on the chair ride most days and cook on the runs. My usual gear for 0/ -10 days is wicking underwear, merino wool socks (love that ****) , hi back pants, soft shell with breathable waterproof overshell. I have wicking underwear form MEC, Eddie bauer, some heatskins , its all good. The hi back pants are really good when i fall, no cold wave of powder up the back. My hands get cold easily and MEC mountaineering gloves fixed the problem ($160.00) but its hard to put a price on warm. Good breathable layers and being able to get the moisture away form your core is pretty important. I dont like to look like the Michelin man in my gear.
 
daught said:
Also I noticed you mentioned polypropylene. Any paticular reason you favor it over polyester? The old ECSCS has polypro shirts. I got one for $9 It's extremly warm for a base layer, wiks very very well but it fits me very poorly.
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I like polypro because I find it warmer, dries quick and still insulates when it's wet..it also stinks and is itchy as hell!! :-) After I wash mine it's like putting on a size XXS.. And the smell never really leaves the garment... I have both and use both but I find the polypro a better performer..despite the stink.. :-)

I also don't know if you use a helmet, but I got one as a gift and it rocks. Holds the goggles when you take them off and prevents them from fogging up. Keeps your head warm..I have the vents open almost all the time. I wasn't sure about it at first but it really works well.
 
One of my skis landed on my back after I planted them in one of the moguls on CBC at tremblant. For a few months I woke up with a "lazy leg" that felt numb for a few hours in the morning. It went away as I started riding the KTM. The vibrations were quite therapeutic. I hated helmets but after that I decided to invest in a good helmet. Way too much stuff can go wrong without one.
 
Just getting back into skiing after a long hiatus (last skiis were Rossi 4sk 207's with Glen Plake bindings).
We skied Tremblent every year for a week because it was dirt cheap back then (stayed in les cedars at the base).
Temps ranged from -10 to -45. We used polypropylene underwear, ski zip turtleneck, a wool sweater and a ski jacket over. Long johns under ski pants and never had a problem. We'd switch between a couple of different sweaters depending on the temp. If my back got cold i'd switch to one piece undies.

Polypropylene wicks moisture away really well, but it has to go somewhere. The wool held the moisture and kept its insulating properties.

Oh and polypropylene starts to smell funky earlier than most fabrics when you sweat in it.
 
I ski patrol at MSLM and I've never skied anywhere outside of Ontario. I have an Atomic snowboard with Rossi bindings and my board is huge! It's a 160

I usually board with my underarmor long sleeve, a cotton turtle neck, a thick sweater and either my soft shell jacket, or my gum tech jacket and then my patrol vest. I have a decent set of snow pants and my boots are awesomely warm with a pair of cotton socks. However I am not subjected to long chair lift rides like you guys are.

I too wear a helmet (they're manditory for patrollers) and i found it's a lot warmer than a winter hat and it cuts down on wind noise
 
I ski mostly outside Ontario these days (ellicotteville mostly) and almost everybody is wearing a helmet. Warmer , my ipod is wired in, SAFER.
The mantra of most hardcore backcountry guys is cotton kills, traps moisture and makes you chilled. I avoid it for everything but summer 30+ days.
The polypro stank can be made go away, just have a fresh set for everyday and wash with an antibacterial soap. Its those little bacterias that stink, like in your runners
 
ABadjusterrider_5 said:
I ski patrol at MSLM and I've never skied anywhere outside of Ontario. I have an Atomic snowboard with Rossi bindings and my board is huge! It's a 160

I usually board with my underarmor long sleeve, a cotton turtle neck, a thick sweater and either my soft shell jacket, or my gum tech jacket and then my patrol vest. I have a decent set of snow pants and my boots are awesomely warm with a pair of cotton socks. However I am not subjected to long chair lift rides like you guys are.

I too wear a helmet (they're manditory for patrollers) and i found it's a lot warmer than a winter hat and it cuts down on wind noise
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How do you get in to ski patrol? I have been considering getting in to ski patrol or maybe becoming an instructor for a while.

Where do you guys get your polypro? Everything I see locally seems to be polyester. I really don't mind the stink. Heck I don't even take extra underwear when I backpack.

On the subject of down density. From http://www.hammockforums.net quilt builders
i dont know if this will help, but in the quilts i make i dont do the math by oz's but by % of overfill. all of my quilts are stock with 10% overfill but once you get to 30% anything past that will start to to have heavily diminishing returns. i normally tell my customers that every 10% overstuff you put into a quilt "up to the max of 30%" will normally grant you 5-7 degrees of warmth depending on the person. now the reason i do the % method is that an oz in a 8oz quilt will add more warmth potential than it would in a 14oz quilt.
i hope this makes sense to you and if you have any other ?s feel free to ask the manufacture of the quilt your wanting because they will be able to answer your ? the best. again this is only the way i do my quilts.
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I guess overstuffing a bit would eliminate cold spots at pressure points. I must say the MEC stuff has WAY more down than EB.
 
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I order polypro from a place called outersports in utah, they supply a lot of military stuff, dirt cheap gear and really decent quality. They also have merino wool blend stuff and if i have to wear it for days its my choice (no stinky).
I do long distance sailboat racing and live in long underwear sometimes for a week. You guys worry about some perspiration, try being doused and dunked in saltwater for 115hrs. Breathable is subjective.
 
Got mine from MEC back in the day. I don't think they even sell silk anymore.
 
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