Dog Training

Banger

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I know a lot of you are dog lovers (proven by the copious amounts of 'post pics of your animals' threads) but I thought I would share with you all the epiphany I had today.

For those who know me, you must know Hemi and Thor - my pitbull mix and my doberman.

Both travel with me and work with me on occasion. For fun we went down and trained with an American K9 contractor a few years back and we'll be returning for a week in August. They have learned some neat search drills, recovery and simple bite techniques. I wouldn't say they are masters but they are good enough at what I wanted them to do.

Over the last few months I have really noticed a change in my dogs. Hemi, my once **** disturber high energy hell hound has become calm, dog aggressive and dominant.
Thor, the dog I acquired at the age of 4 has become overly needy, affectionate and submissive. He is also weary of children. He raises his lips at them which can be quite scary even though he's never snapped. He also barks at people he doesn't trust.

Both dogs are wonderful but far from perfect. I consulted the trainers in the USA and asked what I should be doing before I come back down. To correct the bad behaviours and sharpen their skills they suggested moving on to a remote dog trainer (aka shock collar).

I was very hesitant. I saw one used years ago and it was horrible and painful. These things have come such a long way! I tried one on myself. Not painful at all even on the highest setting. It's numbing and uncomfortable. Dogs also have a much higher pain tolerance than humans so I know I wasn't going to hurt my dogs. I also felt shock collars were for lazy trainers. Not true at all. These are precision tools which allow my dogs to obey me on a dime which is necessary for the off leash work we do often near other dogs and in public.

Hemi and Thor have a very high prey drive. Thor goes nuts if you even mention squirrel. One correction and both lie down and wait for me to release them.

All in all, we are still working with these devices but the improvements are insane! Now I don't need to worry about another dog distracting them while we train. THor chasing a rabbit or other small critter into traffic, my young nieces and nephews playing nearby and so much more. My initial taboo of these devices have been completely abolished. If anyone else is looking to do some intense training with their dogs - these devices are for you. I bought mine on sale at petsmart. Not cheap ($330 for 2 collars and 1 remote programmed to each dog) but worth it when you factor in what you can do with them.
 
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I'm glad they work for you. They aren't for me. They still shock, I use a citronella spray collar that has 3 buttons, one for a beep noise as a warning, then short spray and longer spray. I found that after using it for a while I only need to use the beep. We used it for two days with one puppy with a barking problem and he no longer barks. The effect was pretty amazing. Bonus side effect is that your house smells of lemons.
 
I didn't want a bark collar which is why the citronella wasn't the right tool for the job. I tried those collars once with Hemi. The monster got sprayed and honestly looked at me like I'm the moron that really thought it would work. Never even phased him. The remote trainer is, like I said, for precise work with the animals. My dogs are companions but they also have a job to do and I couldn't be happier with the results.
 
Why does everyone worry about hurting their dog? Big or small, they're animals..not kids..and they require direction and, sometimes, physical discipline. I'm sorry, everyone is touchy-feely these days, but your dog is required to respect you. That doesn't mean you beat them..but physical discipline is normal in the dog world and you may have to physically tough your dog (*gasp*) to make him understand what is acceptable and what is not.
 
I'm really on the fence about using a remote trainer for my dog. It's an effective training method, but at the same time, I can't bring myself to shock my dog. I know you say it's barely perceptable, but still can't. She's a mini-poodle and is high-strung.

I used one with my dog and it didn't take him long to figure what was hurting him. Now if he sees the collar he will run and hide. The first couple of times I got him out from under the bed or wherever, then he would just sit outside and cower and shake under the BBQ. I don't use it anymore and he keeps his barking down to a "hey boss there's someone over here, I'm going to lay down now" kind of thing.
 
Why does everyone worry about hurting their dog? Big or small, they're animals..not kids..and they require direction and, sometimes, physical discipline. I'm sorry, everyone is touchy-feely these days, but your dog is required to respect you. That doesn't mean you beat them..but physical discipline is normal in the dog world and you may have to physically tough your dog (*gasp*) to make him understand what is acceptable and what is not.

This post is perfect to fix most kids. Just replace dog with kid and have at it. :)
 
Why does everyone worry about hurting their dog? Big or small, they're animals..not kids..and they require direction and, sometimes, physical discipline. I'm sorry, everyone is touchy-feely these days, but your dog is required to respect you. That doesn't mean you beat them..but physical discipline is normal in the dog world and you may have to physically tough your dog (*gasp*) to make him understand what is acceptable and what is not.

Agreed. My dogs learned by physical discipline at times. If they don't respect you, they wont listen. My boys are still happy playful dogs but when it's time to work, I need them focused. If they mess up, there are consequences. If they act out of line, there are consequences. I do not beat my dogs but if they act out of line I get physical with them. For example, Hemi picked a fight with a friends dog. I grabbed him by the collar and put him to the ground. I didn't ask, I put him there. I made sure his head was on the ground and he remained there. His tail stopped wagging and he knew I was taking control. Now and then I do that when he acts up just so he knows I call the shots and that he is not allowed to fight without me telling him so. I don't hit my dogs.

The shock collars really don't hurt. The lowest setting feels like a vibration. My doberman is quite sensitive so he takes it more personally if I have to correct a behaviour. Hemi is very assertive and smart. He knows what I want and if I do correct him, he learns and awaits the next command.
 
Respect isn't the same as fear. eg. Hemi obviously respects you. If he didn't he could've bit your hand off as you put him to the ground. Fear is what imnothing described.

I understand a dog is an animal and we do use the alpha rollover when she does something heinous (respect). But we would never hit her (fear). Funny -- she'll do something she knows she shouldn't and then rolls over with her belly up. Kind of like asking for forgiveness after the deed is done.

Anyways, you'll get just as many opinions about dog training as you will about religion and politics. I'm sure shock collars are effective but I see it as a last resort.

Just curious, invictus43 do you have a dog? If so, what kind?
 
Respect isn't the same as fear. eg. Hemi obviously respects you. If he didn't he could've bit your hand off as you put him to the ground. Fear is what imnothing described.

I understand a dog is an animal and we do use the alpha rollover when she does something heinous (respect). But we would never hit her (fear). Funny -- she'll do something she knows she shouldn't and then rolls over with her belly up. Kind of like asking for forgiveness after the deed is done.

Anyways, you'll get just as many opinions about dog training as you will about religion and politics. I'm sure shock collars are effective but I see it as a last resort.

Just curious, invictus43 do you have a dog? If so, what kind?

Timing and consistency are important too. Sometimes people allow behaviour at times because "it's cute" with big people..but with little people (kids..) it can be dangerous..then we get mad at them for the same behaviour. And they're left thinking "WTF?" And let's face it..some dogs are just very difficult to train or keep in check. It's really about respect..a little jab is not causing fear (in my humble opinion) if it's timed properly and the behaviour is unwanted. Adult dogs will nip and bite younger dogs to reinforce behaviour. It's natural.

I had a golden for 4 years and a lab for 7. Both gone now..on the fence about getting another one or two. :-( Sux putting dogs down...
 
I'm pretty assertive with my dog... Hitting isn't the only option. Tone of voice and body posture (especially if you're a decently built guy) really has an effect. When I'm giving a "talk" to him, I'll firmly grab around his snout, get right in his face and give a low, but sharp "no" and repeat it a few times... He gets the point, and it's obvious to him who the boss is. The odd time has required a single solid physical correction, but the key is to not do it in an act of frustration, that just confuses the dog and they don't understand why.

I have a very happy, friendly dog that also does anything I ask simply because he wants to please me, not because he thinks he will get a whoopin' if he doesn't.

Some dogs I can see require a remote shock collar, as some are just stubborn, but it's not to be used as the first attempt.

I think some people are too soft on their dogs though, and the dog runs the show.
 
I very, very rarely had to physically correct my dogs in any fashion. They were really great dogs. But some people have asked me to take care of their dogs and what they consider "walking" is pretty funny! So I correct the dog with what would appear to be very..aggresive?...leash training and while it may shock some people, amazingly the dog is walking and heeling very well in a few minutes! :-) They learn fast..and they respect the walker. My dogs loved me..if you beat them for no reason, yeah, they'll fear you. But a little physical assertiveness can sometimes be necessary.
 
I very, very rarely had to physically correct my dogs in any fashion. They were really great dogs. But some people have asked me to take care of their dogs and what they consider "walking" is pretty funny! So I correct the dog with what would appear to be very..aggresive?...leash training and while it may shock some people, amazingly the dog is walking and heeling very well in a few minutes! :-) They learn fast..and they respect the walker. My dogs loved me..if you beat them for no reason, yeah, they'll fear you. But a little physical assertiveness can sometimes be necessary.
+1

The girl I was dating last year had a puppy that was old enough to be walking well on a leash, but he wasn't. We went to a store to get a choke collar, and the 18 year old "expert" on the floor decided to edumicate me on why it's bad and wrong and that we need to have one of these fancy expensive harnesses that won't injure the dog.
I still went with my tried and true method, and with about an hours worth of time with the dog, he was no longer pulling and automatically sitting when we came to a stop (something I teach all my dogs). No injury, not a single yelp, and the dog now walks properly on leash without needing some stupid harness that they would always require to use if they were trained with it.
A quick, sharp tug on the leash, followed with the correction is all it takes.

Note, it was a smooth collar, I do not agree with the ones with the prongs.
 
I'm pretty assertive with my dog... Hitting isn't the only option. Tone of voice and body posture (especially if you're a decently built guy) really has an effect. When I'm giving a "talk" to him, I'll firmly grab around his snout, get right in his face and give a low, but sharp "no" and repeat it a few times... He gets the point, and it's obvious to him who the boss is. The odd time has required a single solid physical correction, but the key is to not do it in an act of frustration, that just confuses the dog and they don't understand why.

I have a very happy, friendly dog that also does anything I ask simply because he wants to please me, not because he thinks he will get a whoopin' if he doesn't.

Some dogs I can see require a remote shock collar, as some are just stubborn, but it's not to be used as the first attempt.

I think some people are too soft on their dogs though, and the dog runs the show.

There are several of those dogs in my neighbourhood. I dread walking my perfectly behaved dog by them because often the dogs not controlled and comes running up to my dog to stir the pot. My dog doesn't react but I'm just waiting for one of these dogs to become aggressive
 
+1

The girl I was dating last year had a puppy that was old enough to be walking well on a leash, but he wasn't. We went to a store to get a choke collar, and the 18 year old "expert" on the floor decided to edumicate me on why it's bad and wrong and that we need to have one of these fancy expensive harnesses that won't injure the dog.
I still went with my tried and true method, and with about an hours worth of time with the dog, he was no longer pulling and automatically sitting when we came to a stop (something I teach all my dogs). No injury, not a single yelp, and the dog now walks properly on leash without needing some stupid harness that they would always require to use if they were trained with it.
A quick, sharp tug on the leash, followed with the correction is all it takes.

Note, it was a smooth collar, I do not agree with the ones with the prongs.

Whats the problem with prong collars?
 
Whats the problem with prong collars?

You really don't need them and they just irritate the dog. They're a crutch for people who can't control their dogs.
 
You should check out the website of Dr. Sophia Yin. http://drsophiayin.com/ Her book - How to Behave so your Dog Behaves is well written logical and based on scientific animal behaviour studies. She has chapters that deal with many common issues and give you options on how to train effectively. She also has several videos on her website that deal with many of the issues that you describe. Positive reinforcement goes a long way. There have been studies done on the use of shock collars and if you do not have the correct technique and timing you can do way more harm than good. You may want to check out a trainer in your area that uses positive reinforcement techniques.
 
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