Does our licensing system need a change?

油井緋色

油井緋色

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I was thinking about this randomly today. Over the past few years of riding, I've gotten questions with regards to whether or not I feel that riding is more dangerous than driving. My response is always that I feel that riding is SAFER than driving, simply because you are exposed to your environment and forced to constantly pay attention; not to mention it's nearly impossible to get distracted by regular things that can happen in a car (talking to another person, lighting a cig, cell phone, changing radio, etc.).

However, when I started reading a bit about motorcycle accidents and fatality rates the stats are pretty clear, we're more likely to die in the first 2 years of riding...and the likelihood of dying is a couple times more than that of a car. Then I started realizing that many of the bikes involved are supersports.

Imagine if every car driver right now could afford supercars and all G2 drivers could as well. I look at supercar crash videos and get a lil scared.

Are our insurance rates high and our likelihood to die on a motorcycle in a single vehicle accident heavily linked to lack of common sense on which bike to purchase first? If so, especially since insurance rates affect us all, should the government step in and revamp the licensing system?
 
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Well, I can tell you that while its called graduated, its any thing but. My experience was this. Read a book, write a test, you have your m1. I waited 60 days, and took a motorcycle course. After one evening in class, and two days on a dirt bike in a parking lot, I had my papers. Walk into a drive test center 30 days later, and I had my M2.

With my experience totaling 2 days in a parking lot, I could now buy any bike, and drive it anywhere, at any time. The only restriction was no alcohol.

Now I went and bought a 500cc bike, but that was still plenty of power to go and do dumb things in my first year. I've seen people do dumb things on 250cc. Personally I think it just comes down to a lot of the fun/thrilling things to do on a bike are also unsafe and illegal.
 
How would you categorize sex on a bike, unsafe or illegal?
 
Decided I wanted a motorcycle, after watching some videos online (0 experience riding for me at this point)

I did my M1 and passed on the first try (since it's basically the G1 except with some motorcycle related questions) Once I passed my M1 I went to research what to look for in a bike and all that, ended up getting one on Kijiji after 4 days. Learned how to ride by watching "how to ride a motorcycle" videos on youtube and practicing in a parking lot in my neighborhood.

From there I got my insurance, safety, licensing and all that jazz. Kept practicing in my neighborhood parking lot until I felt rdy for the road. Pretty much went from randomly deciding I wanted a bike to riding on the street in like 11 days or so with literally 0 prior riding experience.

I would have never imagined that it would be so easy to get on a motorcycle and just go. I could have easily been on the road 4 days after deciding I wanted to buy a bike even though I've never ridden one before (obviously that would be insane but I'd imagine that someone, somewhere has/will attempt it) So yeah, I think there might be a problem with the licensing system.
 
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My cousin wrote his test on a whim cuz he was board one day and passed. He then waited and did his course...now he has been on a bike at least. Went out and bought a sabre 1300. A week later we put the bikes on a trailer and headed to the Cabot trail. When we unloaded his bike and started touring he hadn't made a left turn without setting his bike on its side. He survived but I would have been more comfortable if he had of had a little more saddle time but he seemed fine with jumping on his bike and learning on the fly. I spent the first 2 days looking for routes where we only had to make rights though.
 
What is wrong with you people?
You actually complaining that there is not enough hoops to jump though before you're allowed to ride a motorcycle? That government does not tell you which exact model of bike you're allowed to buy?
This is called "freedom". Concept soon to be forgotten. Enjoy the precious little that's still left.

And yes, freedom implies responsibility for the choices you make. Scary, eh?

This place is doomed...
 
YuriB said:
What is wrong with you people?
You actually complaining that there is not enough hoops to jump though before you're allowed to ride a motorcycle? That government does not tell you which exact model of bike you're allowed to buy?
This is called "freedom". Concept soon to be forgotten. Enjoy the precious little that's still left.

And yes, freedom implies responsibility for the choices you make. Scary, eh?

This place is doomed...
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I'll be frank, I wouldn't give a rats *** if someone's 16 year old son hopped on a Fireblade, split through a vehicle, killed the driver, passengers, himself and left the intersection he died on as a bloody mess. There is, however, one problem: go look at the insurance section. I don't like paying high insurance and neither does anyone else. We keep blaming insurance for being multi-millionaires that are jipping us of our hard earned cash....then you look at how Jevco, StateFarm and other insurance companies are reporting 100% profit losses from the motorcycle sector.

See the problem? You might be responsible, I might be responsible, but the guy down the street might not and end up affecting all of us. Again, just imagine the carnage if you gave every G2 driver something like a SLR AMG.
 
I see the need for a graduated type system for motorcycles. In some countries, the government accomplishes this utilizing CC or HP limits for age / experience requirements. Generally I'm not a fan of government intervention when not needed.

In Ontario, it seems the insurance industry regulates the types of bikes we can get, and although painful, I can see how it can be beneficial. If I look back a few years, I know I would have bought a 600cc supersport if given the opportunity. Instead I had a couple of Katanas and a VFR800. Now I have more experience a super sport would be within my budget and have reasonable insurance, although I now ride a ****** $750 concours.

I think the system is fine, high costs initially to weed out the idiots and the dreamers, then it becomes more reasonable for everyone else who actually rides. Mind you, I still would like to be paying sub $1000 / year for insurance.


-Adam
 
The system might be far from perfect but I still prefer it to the system in Quebec where I got my license.

Similar to here you start with a written test then get a restricted license that allows you to ride as part of a mandatory riding course which involves 20 hours of parking lot and 4 hours on the road. You then go for a MOST test and get a learners license. Up to that point, it's good but the problem is that the restriction with this learner's license is that you have to ride with someone else (each on their own bike) that has a full unrestricted license. You can't ride alone at all, not even short distances. You have to keep this license for a minimum of 11 months before you can go for the road test and get an unrestricted license.

A lot of people actually start the process and then won't ride at all for a full year before going for the road test. Getting someone to ride with can be a pain and new riders have to rely on the local motorcycle forum to find people to ride with. Problem is, quite often the unexperienced riders will end up with a group far more advanced and this often result in accidents because the learner was not allowed to practice basic riding skills before being caught up in high pace ride.

On top of that, the insurance system is completely different and unlike here it doesn't discourage totally inexperienced riders from getting an SS.
 
My response is always that I feel that riding is SAFER than driving, simply because you are exposed to your environment and forced to constantly pay attention; not to mention it's nearly impossible to get distracted by regular things that can happen in a car (talking to another person, lighting a cig, cell phone, changing radio, etc.).

However, when I started reading a bit about motorcycle accidents and fatality rates the stats are pretty clear, we're more likely to die in the first 2 years of riding...and the likelihood of dying is a couple times more than that of a car. Then I started realizing that many of the bikes involved are supersports.
Are you kidding? Based on miles traveled riders are about 30+ times more likely to suffer fatal injuries in an accident and new riders are particularly at risk in terms of having an accident at all. Riding a motorcycle is very high risk vs. driving a cage.
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See this article: http://www.tirf.ca/publications/PDF_publications/GDL%20for%20Motorcyclists%20Report.pdf. If there's something more recent, I didn't spend time to find it.

If you check out section 3.3.3 you can see some comments on engine size/power limitations and safety. The author here summarizes a New Zealand study in 2000 with the following conclusion: "Their analysis did not demonstrate a strong relationship between increasing cubic capacity and increasing risk of crashing." This is consistent with previous studies, but is not conclusive in the matter (note the key word strong).

I was hoping to find some studies of the UK system and accident rates (before and after the introduction of tiered licensing) but I couldn't find any. There must be some around.
 
koma said:
See this article: http://www.tirf.ca/publications/PDF_publications/GDL%20for%20Motorcyclists%20Report.pdf. If there's something more recent, I didn't spend time to find it.

If you check out section 3.3.3 you can see some comments on engine size/power limitations and safety. The author here summarizes a New Zealand study in 2000 with the following conclusion: "Their analysis did not demonstrate a strong relationship between increasing cubic capacity and increasing risk of crashing." This is consistent with previous studies, but is not conclusive in the matter (note the key word strong).

I was hoping to find some studies of the UK system and accident rates (before and after the introduction of tiered licensing) but I couldn't find any. There must be some around.
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Interesting, so what the hell is causing insurance companies to lose all that money?
 
YuriB said:
What is wrong with you people?
You actually complaining that there is not enough hoops to jump though before you're allowed to ride a motorcycle? That government does not tell you which exact model of bike you're allowed to buy?
This is called "freedom". Concept soon to be forgotten. Enjoy the precious little that's still left.

And yes, freedom implies responsibility for the choices you make. Scary, eh?

This place is doomed...
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I agree with you that we have to jump through enough hoops as it is. The key word you said though was responsibility. The majority of younger people don't understand this concept whatsoever. Thus their insurance is high. The part that's not fair to the majority is that because of poor decision makers in my 'demographic' I also pay high insurance on my 'freedom' bike. I haven't had a ticket since I was 21 years old, I'm 35 and getting soaked because I want to ride a supersport bike. I think that all supersports should be off limits to anyone under at least 25. The amount of times you see stupid kids in little to no gear or speeding like idiots because it's a race is ridiculous. Make them all learn on bikes like interceptors, katanas, ninja 500's etc. Nothing against those bikes at all but they're much more suited to beginners than a 600 or up supersport.
 
YuriB said:
What is wrong with you people?
You actually complaining that there is not enough hoops to jump though before you're allowed to ride a motorcycle? That government does not tell you which exact model of bike you're allowed to buy?
This is called "freedom". Concept soon to be forgotten. Enjoy the precious little that's still left.

And yes, freedom implies responsibility for the choices you make. Scary, eh?

This place is doomed...
Click to expand...

Freedom ended when the first "humans" got together and realized its safer in numbers. Since then we have been creating rules in order to live together with minimal conflict. It's too bad that greediness and selfishness outweigh common sense in the vast majority of people.

You want freedom? Go live in the bush hundreds of miles away from anyone and then, and only then, you may actually find this "freedom" you seem to desire.
 
i think they need to tighten up a few things...
true story :
when i went to get my M1 (again... my M2 expired...bad call) i was waiting in line and saw a guy fail the eye exam...twice.
looked away for a little thought he had left.
see him handing in his written exam...failed, paid to re write...(and im still waiting)
he fails again... pays again...time to re write...(and now i have a number and a seat...still waiting)
he fails again...pays again...re write again... by this time i got my written and jumped into the exam room.
while im writing.. the kid finally passes...
really, shouldnt be be banned from the roads??? he cant see even with his glasses and he basically just guessed enough of the (what i assume to be G1) answers to get behind the wheel.
 
EaZ8 said:
i think they need to tighten up a few things...
true story :
when i went to get my M1 (again... my M2 expired...bad call) i was waiting in line and saw a guy fail the eye exam...twice.
looked away for a little thought he had left.
see him handing in his written exam...failed, paid to re write...(and im still waiting)
he fails again... pays again...time to re write...(and now i have a number and a seat...still waiting)
he fails again...pays again...re write again... by this time i got my written and jumped into the exam room.
while im writing.. the kid finally passes...
really, shouldnt be be banned from the roads??? he cant see even with his glasses and he basically just guessed enough of the (what i assume to be G1) answers to get behind the wheel.
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It does seem kind of silly that after just a written quiz you can go out and ride a ZX14R. Hopefully common sense would step in at that point though... I guess it's just like how there are no HP limits with car licenses here.
 
a hp restriction for at least the first year wouldst be a bad idea. but not as aggressive restrictions as the UK. maybe like first 2 years a certain hp restriction and then you can do whatever you want, it would stop complete beginners from jumping on big bikes.
 
koma said:
It does seem kind of silly that after just a written quiz you can go out and ride a ZX14R. Hopefully common sense would step in at that point though... I guess it's just like how there are no HP limits with car licenses here.
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I know some dealers back in the days of the r1, zx12 etc being new that wouldn't sell it to you if you were young. They should put age restrictions on anything 600 and bigger imo.
 
Slow1 said:
I know some dealers back in the days of the r1, zx12 etc being new that wouldn't sell it to you if you were young. They should put age restrictions on anything 600 and bigger imo.
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I don't believe that age alone should be the restriction. There's plenty of guys 40+ who all of a sudden have watched SOA and decided that this could be fun. They go get their license and jump on a 1100+ cc bike cause it looks cool. Sure they have the responsibility and maturity but they don't have the reflexes or knowledge what to do when **** hits the fan on a ride.

my opinion...use a tiered system where you're restricted to a certain cc for x amount of time. And make the test more difficult than a few parking lot drills. Freedom of choice is great but its your stupid choice that gets the rest of us paying through the nose to insure ourselves.

spring is around the corner and I can already imagine how often we will see posts in the fallen rider's section. Ride safe guys.
 
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