Damon Motorcycle | GTAMotorcycle.com

Damon Motorcycle

Yellowbalt

Well-known member
Hi Guys,
Still waiting to order S1K RR since there is a stop-sale order due to recall then I stumbled on Damon Electric motorcycle and it really looks interesting. Can anyone provide any input? They are accepting downpayment now.

Danny
 
Hi Guys,
Still waiting to order S1K RR since there is a stop-sale order due to recall then I stumbled on Damon Electric motorcycle and it really looks interesting. Can anyone provide any input? They are accepting downpayment now.

Danny
only know what ive seen on the internet.

Yes the stop sale for certain BMW models sucks. Had my '20 XR in for service in November and was speaking to the GM of Maranello BMW, he is not pleased.

Last i heard from them we may not see these brakes being scheduled for service until June! Hopefully they have a timeline much sooner to fix their stock so they can start selling again.
 
I would wait to make sure this thing is ever going to make it to market before putting any money into it
 
Downpayment is fully refundable says on the website
That makes you an unsecured creditor. Although theoretically you are in the list to get money if it bails, by the time they pull the plug, unsecured creditors rarely get a substantial taste.
 
I follow this rule to the T....atleast with respect to anything mechanical and/or electrical/electronic.

Food is another matter : )
For me it depends on the amount. If it seems interesting, I believe in the concept, I think they have a good chance of success and I would be ok with losing all the money, I have made the leap. The vast majority of the time, that means a rendering is not nearly good enough to get my money. I need to see that they have at least a working prototype (and in the case of alternative powertrain vehicles, powered by their powertrain). The vast majority of ideas do not get past renderings but with the proliferation of kickstarter and similar, that is somehow far enough to collect vast amounts of money for products that will never be made (and in many cases are advertised as defying the laws of physics).
 
They are doing track testing. There is even video that saw this motor on the street. But yeah still risky but just fir a $100 US, I might risk it.
 
I have been watching this one closely, because I really like the concept ... closely enough to do a little bit of digging and perhaps a little reverse-engineering and plausibility-checking.

It appears that they bought the intellectual property of (now-defunct) Mission Motors, which kick-started their powertrain development.

The company's address is a place in Vancouver. Google Streetview says it's a microbrewery. Perhaps they have a corner office upstairs. It's pretty likely that they're not publicising the whereabouts of where they plan to be assembling this.

They make some extraordinary claims. I'm still interested if they come anywhere close to those claims.

It appears that they are using 21700-series cylindrical lithium-ion cells with a battery capacity of a little under 20 kWh. Those are the same cells that the Tesla Model 3 uses, by the way. The specifications of those cells are readily available. Nominal voltage 3.7 volts, nominal capacity 5000mAh (seems that the actual capacity when tested is more like 4800 mAh), output current rating varies depending on who makes the cell but seems to be 10 or maybe 15 amps continuous. Crunching the numbers finds that if the nominal bus voltage were 450 volts DC (found that number when digging for tech details on their website), which is not unusual for EVs nowadays, that requires 120 cells in series, and 9 such battery modules together would have a nominal capacity of 19.2 kWh based on 4800mAh per cell. So, that's probably what they are doing. (FWIW a Tesla Model 3 has 4 times as many of the exact same battery cells.) The weight of these batteries (in the Damon) would be 74 kg ... that is not bad. Their claim of the whole bike weighing 440 lbs (200 kg) looks plausible. The size of the battery assembly shown on their website also looks plausible. So far, so good.

Power? They say 200 horsepower (= just under 150 kW). At 450 volts DC, and allowing for some losses, the current required would be 333 amps. This is coming from 9 battery modules in parallel ... 37 amps each, from cells with a continuous power rating of 10 - 15 amps depending on which ones you buy. But Tesla is extracting 360-ish kW from 4 times as many cells, so they are "overclocking" their cells, too, although not by as much. So, that 200 hp will be "intermittent" (seconds at a time) ... fair enough. It appears that Damon is using a cooling system (there is a visible radiator) so perhaps that gives some leeway. Let's suppose we abide by manufacturer's ratings, 15 amps x 9 modules in parallel x 450 volts = 60 kW = 80-ish horsepower, and that's the "continuous" rating. Still decent. If they overclock it for intermittent operation by the same factor Tesla does (about 1.5) ... 120 horsepower ... Good enough. (FWIW Tesla's "ludicrous" and "Plaid" modes are also taking considerable liberty with intermittent cell ratings, so this is going to be like that, too.)

Top speed and range are somewhat linked because these both depend on aero drag. Let's tackle range first. They claim 201 miles (324 km) at 60 mph (97 km/h) - frustrating why a Canadian company is giving old-English units but be that as it may. We need to estimate how much power it takes to go 60 mph = 97 km/h = 27 metres per second.

We know, roughly, that a normal superbike needs about 180 hp = 135 kW to do 300 km/h = 83 metres per second and that's with the rider in a racing tuck. We know that this is almost entirely aero drag. We know that the force for overcoming aero is a function of speed squared and the power for overcoming aero is a function of speed cubed. So, 135 x (27/83)^3 = 4.6 kW. Similar math for my Yamaha R3 race bike with me on it (tops out, optimistically, around 175 km/h with 42 hp) gives 5.4 kW. Similar math for my cbr125 with me on it (about 110 km/h with 12 hp) gives 6.2 kW. The number is going up for the smaller and lower-powered bikes because this simplistic method isn't accounting for tire friction, which is in reality taking a greater and greater proportion at lower speeds. I'm going to say that 6.5 kW is probably what the Damon is going to need, to go 60 mph (97 km/h). (It's probably around 4.6 kW for aero and 1.9 for tire friction - and that's plausible)

So then, the range is simply (19.2 / 6.5) x 60 = 177 miles = 285 km (puttering along at 97 km/h). That is decent. Bear in mind that real-world riding on secondary roads involves lots of lower speeds if you want to keep your driver's license. Also, EVs tend to do relatively better around town. Even if this doesn't quite meet their claim ... it's still decent.

This post is getting long. Continued in the next one.
 
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So they claim 200 miles per hour top speed (= 320 km/h). Basically, high enough to be irrelevant. We know a normal superbike takes about 135 kW to do 300 km/h, and that's almost all aero drag at that speed. They say 200 hp = 150 kW. So the top speed, if the drag stays the same, would be (150/135) cube root x 300 = 311 km/h. Close enough. Irrelevant anyhow.

Bear in mind with these aero calculations that the Damon has an advantage: It doesn't need large airflow through a radiator, which is "draggy" on a normal bike - airflow that goes through the bike is much more disrupted than that which goes around. This might help both the top speed and the range a little.

As with ALL vehicles - but it's only more prominent with an EV! - the top-speed claim and the range claim do not exist in the same time and place.

So ... I am okay with the weight claim. I am okay with the intermittent-power-rating claim, I am okay with the continuous power rating that I calculated myself. The range and top speed claims, even if they are not fully reached, are still good.

There will need to be some technical changes to what we've seen. Proper rear fender, proper license plate mounting with lights and reflectors, proper rear view mirrors - their camera and screen are not compliant in North America. All fair enough.

Here's the big question, how likely is this to actually happen. They've got some team members with previous experience at other automotive and motorcycle companies, and some with tech experience. What I'm not seeing - although it's in "Current Openings"! - is a whole lot of manufacturing experience.

They're claiming they want to start delivering in 2021. They've evidently done some prototype testing, which is good. And a motorcycle is a simpler vehicle than a car. Surely a lot of bits and pieces are going to be bought-in standard components. Wheels, brake calipers, brake master cylinders, ABS module, forks, shock, switchgear, and lots of other bits and pieces are all stuff that can be pilfered from an existing production model and bought from existing suppliers. For the production volume that I anticipate (probably high-hundreds to low-thousands per year) they don't need a massive assembly plant. There's still going to be a number of castings and molded-plastic parts and machined parts that are custom made for this vehicle, and those take time and money to sort out.

Start delivering in 2021, it's February 2021 now, there's no evidence of a suitable assembly facility, they're still looking for mechanical designers and purchasing staff in their job-openings ... I'm going to say, "not happening" - not this year. Maybe next year. Question is ... does the time and money run out before job one.

I still really like it, and I hope they make it happen.
 
One more calculation ... to show why this has my interest.

The weight distribution and center of gravity location of a normal sport motorcycle with rider aboard limits acceleration to somewhere near 1 "g". That's the point where the front wheel is just skimming the ground, trying to accelerate any harder picks the front wheel off the ground. So that's the limit. It's also why practically every bike that is capable of reaching 60 mph / 100 km/h in first gear (any modern 600 or bigger) accelerates to 60 mph / 100 km/h in about 3 seconds ... that's very close to 1 g of acceleration.

Okay then. Question 1, how much power demand while accelerating at 100 km/h at 1 g.

That's easy. Mass of bike = 200 kg. Mass of rider = 100 kg. There's no uncertainty with fuel load in this case ... Total mass 300 kg.
Force required to accelerate at 1 g: F = m A = 300 x 9.807 call it 300 x 10 close enough, F = 3000 N. This is how much force is needed at the tire contact patch to achieve this acceleration.
Power = force x speed = 3000 x 27.777.. = 83 kW. This is the other reason that I'm not all that concerned about them "overclocking" the current loading on the batteries. Most of the time, you're not going to be able to use max power output anyhow.

Question 2, to what road speed will it keep up that 1 g of acceleration if it really does have 150 kW available?

150000 = 3000 x speed, rearrange the equation: speed = 150/3 = 50 metres per second = 180 km/h (!) This doesn't include aero drag, which will take something off at that speed, but still ... That's a 9 second quarter mile ...

And no downshifting to access all that. Even if it turns out to not *quite* live up to all claims, even if it's anywhere close, it still has my interest.
 
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aren't most of these electric bike models limiting the torque from a stop so they don't launch into the atmosphere?

I imagine they all are. An electric motor controlled by a variable throttle definitely have a unique problem compared to nearly any ICE motorcycle on the planet.
 
On this battery-current-rating matter ... Project Farm to the rescue! It seems that there are 18650 cells in existence which are rated up to 35 amps output ... and it looks like they will do it! The 18650 cells are smaller than the 21700 cells both in diameter and length ... so one would think that if a little battery could do this, probably a bigger one will do it, too. There are huge performance differences between these cells. One of the underlying factors in how well they perform is, shall we say, rather predictable ...

 
aren't most of these electric bike models limiting the torque from a stop so they don't launch into the atmosphere?

Certainly. Motor torque control is one of many tricky things that has to be accomplished. Motors used in EVs, and their controllers, more closely resemble the servo motors used on robots and CNC machines - capable of very fine control - than they resemble your ordinary average AC induction motor with direct-on-line starting.
 
EV power is the next thing and it looks promising, the safety tech and changing ergos are a nice bonus.
Been interested from the start but really haven't seen any progress or news from them since they made the media rounds early last year.
For a company that is supposed to start production this year, there's been little about a manufacturing facility or even road testing videos out.
Especially for the type of modern social media tech company this is.
Still hoping they arent going to be all smoke n mirrors but just delayed due to the pandemic.
 

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