City of Toronto now REQUIRES in-person pickups of disclosure packages

[FiReSTaRT]

Got a letter from Toronto Legal Services re: my disclosure request (speeding and expired slip, that I have to show up and pick up the package because that requires a signature. That involves time off work, gas and parking, so it's a considerable expense. Before, they used to just mail out the disclosure packages. So, how do I proceed?

Should I just fax in another request saying that it would be an undue financial strain and bring the total up to at least 4 trips to the courthouse? (Set the trial date, try to deal with the prosecutor, pick up disclosure [only a single appearance IF and it's a big "if" they got all the info in the package], actual court appearance)?

Should I show up, pick up and then argue (in court) that it is a violation of my 11d rights as they are making the trial process to be a bigger punishment than just accepting a conviction?

Any other suggestions? This is getting ridiculous and I know they'd make me show up AGAIN if there was any information missing from their disclosure package.

 

[AF4iK]

Is it actually a new requirement or are they just hassling citizens to transfer their responsibility onto us? Sounds unreasonable to me and the signature excuse makes no sense. After all, they just sent you a letter by mail asking you to come down so they could've just as easily sent you the disclosure with a read receipt. I'd reply by mail and insist that it be delivered.

 

[rbjeepthing]

Is it actually a new requirement or are they just hassling citizens to transfer their responsibility onto us? Sounds unreasonable to me and the signature excuse makes no sense. After all, they just sent you a letter by mail asking you to come down so they could've just as easily sent you the disclosure with a read receipt. I'd reply by mail and insist that it be delivered.

Better yet send the response back via registered mail with a sig request.

 

[FiReSTaRT]

I like faxing because I get a transmission receipt, so I can always re-request.. So for now, the best option is to re-request and if they don't wanna send it to me, should I come and pick it up in court or just argue no disclosure on my court date?

 

[Brian P]

It may sound unfair, but AFAIK they can set whatever rules they want for setting up court dates, picking up disclosure, etc. It's in their interest to make the process as difficult as possible and there's nothing you can do about it.

 

[FiReSTaRT]

It may sound unfair, but AFAIK they can set whatever rules they want for setting up court dates, picking up disclosure, etc. It's in their interest to make the process as difficult as possible and there's nothing you can do about it.

Eventually it reaches the point of undue difficulty and that is where the "fair" part of 11d becomes doubtful. I might even file a 4F under the circumstances

 

[SLaP]

It may sound unfair, but AFAIK they can set whatever rules they want for setting up court dates, picking up disclosure, etc. It's in their interest to make the process as difficult as possible and there's nothing you can do about it.

^ what he said.

Back in the day you could request a trial date by mail (and by fax I believe). You have to go in person these days to a few locations with horrible business hours and lineups.
I am not surprised that they now expect you to go pick up the disclosure request, and I am surprised that they do not expect you to make your disclosure request in person yet (probably in the works).

 

[FiReSTaRT]

^ what he said.

Back in the day you could request a trial date by mail (and by fax I believe). You have to go in person these days to a few locations with horrible business hours and lineups.
I am not surprised that they now expect you to go pick up the disclosure request, and I am surprised that they do not expect you to make your disclosure request in person yet (probably in the works).

They try to push you into making a disclosure request in person and using their forms that don't let you request anything but what your opponent thinks you need for a "fair" fight. That's why I request by fax. I will try to make another request by fax and see what comes out of it. Worst they can do is say "no".

 

[AF4iK]

Yea, it doesn't surprise me that they would change the rules to require in-person pickup of disclosure. I'm just wondering if the rule has actually changed (i.e., is the OP legally bound to pick it up) since I just got off due to lack of disclosure barely a month ago.

Out of curiosity, in any other legal case, can one party demand that the other party pickup a copy of their documents in person? Having been through the small claims process, my experience was that everything was expected to be mailed to each party well before a court date. Is it just a convention of convenience?

 

[SLaP]

OP, before resending the disclosure request, perhaps call into the courthouse anonymously. Ask to speak to whomever is in charge. Inquire about this "new" policy about pickup and signature.

 

[OpenGambit]

Got a letter from Toronto Legal Services re: my disclosure request (speeding and expired slip, that I have to show up and pick up the package because that requires a signature. That involves time off work, gas and parking, so it's a considerable expense. Before, they used to just mail out the disclosure packages. So, how do I proceed?

Should I just fax in another request saying that it would be an undue financial strain and bring the total up to at least 4 trips to the courthouse? (Set the trial date, try to deal with the prosecutor, pick up disclosure [only a single appearance IF and it's a big "if" they got all the info in the package], actual court appearance)?

Should I show up, pick up and then argue (in court) that it is a violation of my 11d rights as they are making the trial process to be a bigger punishment than just accepting a conviction?

Any other suggestions? This is getting ridiculous and I know they'd make me show up AGAIN if there was any information missing from their disclosure package.

I agree, that sounds stupid as hell. There may not be anything you can do about it, but would you mind scanning the letter?

 

[FiReSTaRT]

I agree, that sounds stupid as hell. There may not be anything you can do about it, but would you mind scanning the letter?

I already have it scanned (all the important stuff gets scanned immediately and backed up to NAS periodically). If you're offering to take a look at it (thanks, much appreciated, btw) I can e-mail it to you if you pm me your e-mail address.

 

[OpenGambit]

I can look at it after the 4th when I am back in the country. The problem is that these things are usually more problems than they are worth. It does sound unnecessarily obstructionist. what next, you can only show up between 3-3:30 on tuesdays that aren't also prime numbers?

 

[FiReSTaRT]

I can look at it after the 4th when I am back in the country. The problem is that these things are usually more problems than they are worth. It does sound unnecessarily obstructionist. what next, you can only show up between 3-3:30 on tuesdays that aren't also prime numbers?

Thanks. They are getting to the point where disputing your charges costs your average citizen more than all the financial penalties (including the insurance hit) of being found guilty in the first place. For now, I will send them something to that effect and see how they reply but I do wish to have something on the record. It's bad enough that you can plead guilty and take the penalty over the phone and over the Internet, but to plead not guilty you have to make an appearance in court, meaning 2 court appearances for such a minor matter.. With this, they just upped the cost of disputing charges by 50%, so I'm gung-ho about making a bit of a stink (in a civilized manner)

 

[Emefef]

I'm fairly certain there will be posters that more quickly and specifically identify the issues I'm thinking about here - while we have our rights, I'm sure it's permissible for the government to have certain restrictions. For example, if you wanted face-to-face, or telephone service, it's reasonable that be Monday to Friday, for a set period each day.
To turn this into a battle with any kind of hope of winning, I think you have to show that it is unreasonable, or discriminatory.
Therefore, I would look at a charter argument. If you live outside of Toronto, you can send in your plea and request for trial by mail. I bet you can still make your disclosure request and receive your package by fax or mail. Worse, you can plead guilty without going in, but must go in to plead guilty and exercise your right to a have a trial.
The problem is, you have to be willing to take that on, rather than filing a complaint, picking it up, and getting on with your life - which is usually what happens. I wanted to make a big deal out of the fact that I had to go in just to plead not guilty. I'm somewhat embarrassed to say that when it came down to it, I couldn't be bothered.