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nobbie48

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Long term care, housing costs, investing, job security etc.

The attached article is an interesting read based on the taxi business in Toronto. In its hay-day a taxi plate sold for around $360,000. Today they're around $10,000, largely thanks to Uber.

Video rentals, post cards, recycling newspapers, free trade, fixing stuff all have their own similar stories.

financialpost.com

The last cabbie: The story of the taxi driver who refused to go extinct

Taxis were in Lawrence Eisenberg’s blood until his hopes and dreams were upended by a smartphone app. Now he’s fighting back
financialpost.com financialpost.com
 
nobbie48 said:
Long term care, housing costs, investing, job security etc.

The attached article is an interesting read based on the taxi business in Toronto. In its hay-day a taxi plate sold for around $360,000. Today they're around $10,000, largely thanks to Uber.

Video rentals, post cards, recycling newspapers, free trade, fixing stuff all have their own similar stories.

financialpost.com

The last cabbie: The story of the taxi driver who refused to go extinct

Taxis were in Lawrence Eisenberg’s blood until his hopes and dreams were upended by a smartphone app. Now he’s fighting back
financialpost.com financialpost.com
Click to expand...
The other way to look at the collapse in Taxi plate prices is that gov't regulation that creates a monopoly hurts us all. A taxi driver paying $360K for a number needs to pass that along to the consumer. I don't think many people would argue that eliminating that artificial supply constraint hurt the availability of hire cars in Toronto.

EDIT:
As for that particular cabby wanting the city to buy out his plate at peak price, f that. His dad bought one for $50. When he transitioned the plate to a new owner did he pass any appreciation to the city? Hell no. So many people want "government" to pay when they lose on an investment. They conveniently left out the price he paid for his plates. Since that is the core of the whole article, it is a waste of effort. For all we know, he bought them all for far less than the current market price.
 
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If the taxi system had been structured in a more reasonable way to begin with, Uber as we know it would never have had a chance. We might have gotten a different version of Uber eventually, something WAY less profitable but maybe still an app that modernized the experience and lowered the barrier to entry to becoming a taxi driver
 
In Toronto there were/are two taxi plate types (two tier system): Taxi Cab Owner and Ambassador. If you look at the cab plate on the back of the car it will show which type it is...

Taxi Owner, allows any licensed cabby to drive the car. In practice, basically the car is "rented" out to drivers and they (driver) pays the "corporate" plate owner to do so. It is very unlikely the holder of the plate ever drives the car as a taxi driver. The car is going 24/7 more or less and these plates became big dollars (six figures) as they printed money and were a finite resource.

Ambassador, the plate owner is the only one legally allowed to drive the car, ironically the car owner is the one driving vs the "Taxi Owner" plate.... These were never worth very much if anything, may not have ever been transferable, that I am not sure.

The entire two tier system was IMO very wrong and really hurt drivers. For the longest time I would only get into an Ambassador plated cab, now cabs are so hard to find I take what I get or avoid them all together.... Something I have noticed these days, you tell them where you are going and they just say a take it or leave it price and never use the meter (against the rules).... sign of the times for them. With all this and being hard to find I now end my downtown drinking 30 minutes early and take the TTC, saves me $40...
 
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GreyGhost said:
The other way to look at the collapse in Taxi plate prices is that gov't regulation that creates a monopoly hurts us all. A taxi driver paying $360K for a number needs to pass that along to the consumer. I don't think many people would argue that eliminating that artificial supply constraint hurt the availability of hire cars in Toronto.

EDIT:
As for that particular cabby wanting the city to buy out his plate at peak price, f that. His dad bought one for $50. When he transitioned the plate to a new owner did he pass any appreciation to the city? Hell no. So many people want "government" to pay when they lose on an investment. They conveniently left out the price he paid for his plates. Since that is the core of the whole article, it is a waste of effort. For all we know, he bought them all for far less than the current market price.
Click to expand...
The taxi monopoly ripped off everyone but the plate owner. A two year old ex OPP car could be put into service and driven until the body rotted off. The drivers scraped by but apparently better than Uber. Passengers are better off with Uber but do they sip their fair trade coffees as they are chauffeured along by someone working for well below a living wage?

As far as plate #7 goes it's a sad story of reality. Hopefully his house is paid for and he's got some savings. The plate that was a down payment on a modest house is now a down payment on modest car.

A lot of dreams got smashed by change. A really good industrial electrician I knew thought, as an empty nester, move to the cottage and get away from TO. Then ESA came in and he couldn't work as an electrician as before. He had to become a master and licenced electrical contractor. Too much paperwork buried him.

Mass production means specialized parts that are obsolete after 5 years. I just scrapped a pressure washer over a failed molded part that a machine shop would want a grand to copy. A new washer is under $200.

I just told someone to scrap a control system over a failed sensor. The mighty manufacturer won't talk the end user through the process and anyone under the manufacturer's level wouldn't understand the questions.

I am concerned about job security demands and what is expected when a person's skills are no longer needed. The taxi plate example shows how fast things can change. In the private sector the workers have to, at some point, learn that companies go bankrupt. In the public sector not as much. What's your plan B?
 
backmarkerducati said:
In Toronto there were/are two taxi plate types (two tier system): Taxi Cab Owner and Ambassador. If you look at the cab plate on the back of the car it will show which type it is...

Taxi Owner, allows any licensed cabby to drive the car. In practice, basically the car is "rented" out to drivers and they (driver) pays the "corporate" plate owner to do so. It is very unlikely the holder of the plate ever drives the car as a taxi driver. The car is going 24/7 more or less and these plates became big dollars (six figures) as they printed money and were a finite resource.

Ambassador, the plate owner is the only one legally allowed to drive the car, ironically the car owner is the one driving vs the "Taxi Owner" plate.... These were never worth very much if anything, may not have ever been transferable, that I am not sure.

The entire two tier system was IMO very wrong and really hurt drivers. For the longest time I would only get into an Ambassador plated cab, now cabs are so hard to find I take what I get or avoid them all together.... Something I have noticed these days, you tell them where you are going and they just say a take it or leave it price and never use the meter (against the rules).... sign of the times for them. With all this and being hard to find I now end my downtown drinking 30 minutes early and take the TTC, saves me $40...
Click to expand...
Airport cabs are next in line to for a kick in the ass. The system is inefficient and stupid. I was at an airport in western canada and needed to get <2km away as the crow flies. The airport seems to have bee intentionally designed to discourage walking (there is ground where a path could easily be but they block it and force everyone to take the longest possible route. We grabbed a cab. He was so ******. He was shaking. He had waited in line for 45 minutes to get a fair. 5km taxi ride was ~$15 plus tip. He wanted the 30 minute fare to downtown. He checked the wait time and it was close to two hours if he went back to the airport to try to get another fair. Super expensive per km for the passengers, huge waste of time for the drivers which kills their hourly wage. Really no winners in the current system.
 
nobbie48 said:
The taxi monopoly ripped off everyone but the plate owner. A two year old ex OPP car could be put into service and driven until the body rotted off. The drivers scraped by but apparently better than Uber. Passengers are better off with Uber but do they sip their fair trade coffees as they are chauffeured along by someone working for well below a living wage?

snip....
Click to expand...
They did change the rules many many moons ago in Toronto about the age of the car that could go into service and how old it could be before being forced out. This is why we see piles of mostly Camrys these days and no ex police cars. Basically the used cop cars were too old when they were being sold off to be put into taxi service. Different for other areas of course, some still use old cop cars.

I knew someone back in the day that the family had multiple owners licenses (Toronto). Every time I saw him he was driving a different Impala/Caprice with very high six figure to close to a million klicks on it. Cab came out of service, he drove it until it blew up, rinse and repeat.
 
backmarkerducati said:
In Toronto there were/are two taxi plate types (two tier system): Taxi Cab Owner and Ambassador. If you look at the cab plate on the back of the car it will show which type it is...

Taxi Owner, allows any licensed cabby to drive the car. In practice, basically the car is "rented" out to drivers and they (driver) pays the "corporate" plate owner to do so. It is very unlikely the holder of the plate ever drives the car as a taxi driver. The car is going 24/7 more or less and these plates became big dollars (six figures) as they printed money and were a finite resource.

Ambassador, the plate owner is the only one legally allowed to drive the car, ironically the car owner is the one driving vs the "Taxi Owner" plate.... These were never worth very much if anything, may not have ever been transferable, that I am not sure.

The entire two tier system was IMO very wrong and really hurt drivers. For the longest time I would only get into an Ambassador plated cab, now cabs are so hard to find I take what I get or avoid them all together.... Something I have noticed these days, you tell them where you are going and they just say a take it or leave it price and never use the meter (against the rules).... sign of the times for them. With all this and being hard to find I now end my downtown drinking 30 minutes early and take the TTC, saves me $40...
Click to expand...
I've taken Uber twice with the tab being picked up by the car dealership when mine was in for service. It worked well and the driver got a decent tip from me.

I have yet to figure out the cash flow on Uber eats and their type. I pick up my own stuff.

If I had to call a cab I'd go for Ambassador but what are the odds of getting a cab when you need one?

Seen any Divco trucks delivering milk lately?
 
GreyGhost said:
Airport cabs are next in line to for a kick in the ass. The system is inefficient and stupid. I was at an airport in western canada and needed to get <2km away as the crow flies. The airport seems to have bee intentionally designed to discourage walking (there is ground where a path could easily be but they block it and force everyone to take the longest possible route. We grabbed a cab. He was so ******. He was shaking. He had waited in line for 45 minutes to get a fair. 5km taxi ride was ~$15 plus tip. He wanted the 30 minute fare to downtown. He checked the wait time and it was close to two hours if he went back to the airport to try to get another fair. Super expensive per km for the passengers, huge waste of time for the drivers which kills their hourly wage. Really no winners in the current system.
Click to expand...
I live 10 minutes from Pearson and will take a cab to the AP because there is no restriction on drop offs. Coming home I take a limo because they're more polite with the short run. Cabbies go verbally ape for the above reason and I think they pay a pickup charge to boot.

Car rental at the airport is also a rip off. It's half price off airport property. Someone has to pay for the designer booths.
 
nobbie48 said:
I've taken Uber twice with the tab being picked up by the car dealership when mine was in for service. It worked well and the driver got a decent tip from me.

I have yet to figure out the cash flow on Uber eats and their type. I pick up my own stuff.

If I had to call a cab I'd go for Ambassador but what are the odds of getting a cab when you need one?

Seen any Divco trucks delivering milk lately?
Click to expand...
On Uber, I know a few people that have tried driving (and some still do it time to time) and the consensus is they make about $13 to maybe if lucky $20 per hour after actually accounting for expenses (in a real way). Most think they make more, right up until they need to do brakes, tires, pay insurance, or other wear and tear repairs. IMO it is a race to the bottom mentality. The ones I know that still do it really pick and choose when and see it as a way to help fund a better car....

When you call a cab you get what you get as Ambassador is the plate type not a brand. When they are waiting at the side of the road you can pick and choose but the front guy gets ******...
 
nobbie48 said:
I live 10 minutes from Pearson and will take a cab to the AP because there is no restriction on drop offs. Coming home I take a limo because they're more polite with the short run. Cabbies go verbally ape for the above reason and I think they pay a pickup charge to boot.

Car rental at the airport is also a rip off. It's half price off airport property. Someone has to pay for the designer booths.
Click to expand...
I used to live at 427 and finch. IIRC, that was in zone 4 of 5 for airport rides. When you have passed through four zones in 10 minutes, the zones are obviously a PR stunt. Just flat rate it and move on.
 
The entire cab failure thing does make me sad. When I lived downtown I walked out my front door raised my hand and someone pulled up in a car and took me where I wanted to go. Drinking downtown, raised my hand and some took me home...even if I hit the after hours clubs. Sure I had to pay, easy come easy go.

Now, good luck finding a cab....
 
Drove a hack for a year and a half back around 1990 gotta say that I'm probably a better person for the experience. One thing tho it helped me develop a theory that we are all born with a finite amount of patience so every time that we are ticked off or annoyed it diminishes that resource within us until well you get the idea.
 
Dirty Frank said:
Drove a hack for a year and a half back around 1990 gotta say that I'm probably a better person for the experience. One thing tho it helped me develop a theory that we are all born with a finite amount of patience so every time that we are ticked off or annoyed it diminishes that resource within us until well you get the idea.
Click to expand...
Does your patience bucket refill with time or is it like a ni-cad battery and every time you empty it, there is less available tomorrow?
 
Can we quit calling Uber a ride share? There is no "sharing" a ride.
Any time I get insurance I'm asked "will it be used for commercial purposes?" Do all Uber drivers say yes and then pay way more insurance??
 
^^ Highly highly doubtful.
My buddies dad bought an Oakville taxi license right before uber was a thing. Think it was close to 100 grand and had planned to pay it off then sell it to help with retirement. Oops. Pretty sure he still does alright though, Cerb and all the other government handouts helped through pandemic. Enough so to take a vacation back to Turkiye while collecting.
 
backmarkerducati said:
On Uber, I know a few people that have tried driving (and some still do it time to time) and the consensus is they make about $13 to maybe if lucky $20 per hour after actually accounting for expenses (in a real way). Most think they make more, right up until they need to do brakes, tires, pay insurance, or other wear and tear repairs. IMO it is a race to the bottom mentality. The ones I know that still do it really pick and choose when and see it as a way to help fund a better car....

When you call a cab you get what you get as Ambassador is the plate type not a brand. When they are waiting at the side of the road you can pick and choose but the front guy gets ******...
Click to expand...
When a car is used as a cab doesn't it have to be branded as such?

Uber isn't usually the same as the car would normally have one driver. What percentage of Uber drivers work full time?

However, could a group of drivers buy a car, sign up for Uber and drive the crap out of the car?
 
nobbie48 said:
However, could a group of drivers buy a car, sign up for Uber and drive the crap out of the car?
Click to expand...
Who holds the insurance hot potato on that one? Unless a corporation bought the car, the paper owner will get stuck with the insurance hit when there is a crash (and if you drive enough in areas with lots of people, eventually there will be a crash).
 
GreyGhost said:
I used to live at 427 and finch. IIRC, that was in zone 4 of 5 for airport rides. When you have passed through four zones in 10 minutes, the zones are obviously a PR stunt. Just flat rate it and move on.
Click to expand...
Zones are funny. When I had my shop at Airport north of Steeles a phone call to the far corner of Scarborough was local. A call to Woodbridge was long distance.
 
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