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Boat Show

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nobbie48

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I haven't been in years, having sold the fleet. I used to go regularly and it was a bit of an economic harbinger.

The year after the first oil embargo it was an aluminum forest of masts. As people realized that sailboats were work boats needing crews the pendulum swung back and the last time I went, Power ruled the show with a few masts in one corner.

Canadian made boats were rare in recent years as well.

I'm not really shopping but curious about the market so might refresh my memory and get a little sticker shock. Broker listings for used stuff could also be interesting.
 
I go annually as the show coincides with a couple associations that have meetings at the show. Its mostly power boats and a lot of cottage boats , sail boats are few and far between. And there used to be dozens of CDN manuf , now you could count that on one hand , there are still some Ontario power boat makers, but getting very expensive.
The sticker shock is real , but there is still a lot of serious money floating around.

I'm hoping the new 300hp diesel outboards that are being imported make an appearance.

odd that nobody sells pepperoni sticks .....
 
I used to have to go for work, haven't been for a few years. There's not much there for us mere mortals.
Inboards seem to have disappeared, the big deal is multiple fly-by-wire outboards hanging off the transoms.
Us, rich people, and them...
 
crankcall said:
I go annually as the show coincides with a couple associations that have meetings at the show. Its mostly power boats and a lot of cottage boats , sail boats are few and far between. And there used to be dozens of CDN manuf , now you could count that on one hand , there are still some Ontario power boat makers, but getting very expensive.
The sticker shock is real , but there is still a lot of serious money floating around.

I'm hoping the new 300hp diesel outboards that are being imported make an appearance.

odd that nobody sells pepperoni sticks .....
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I've looked into those diesels, can't see the value proposition. $75,000 vs $32000 for a 300 Verado? Higher fuel consumption, higher maintenance and the insane premium for diesel fuel.

Cant think of an application where they best a gasoline v8 outboard.
 
The duty cycle on the diesel outboard has an expected life of three times the gas engine . Fuel mileage is 25% better than gas , lots of torque at lower rpm, and less maintenance/longer intervals .
On a travelling boat decent diesel is easier to find than quality gas .

Reason outboards are taking over the market in boats up to 40ft , they leave all that storage space in the boat where the engines used to live, much easier to maneuver, fuel efficiency is way up on modern engines and when they need service , buddy is not doing a head stand in a hole, if it needs a trip to the shop they lift it off , and may have a loaner they drop on . Lot of pluses.

In places where outboards run 12 months a year , service life is a big deal


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crankcall said:
The duty cycle on the diesel outboard has an expected life of three times the gas engine . Fuel mileage is 25% better than gas , lots of torque at lower rpm, and less maintenance/longer intervals .
On a travelling boat decent diesel is easier to find than quality gas .

Reason outboards are taking over the market in boats up to 40ft , they leave all that storage space in the boat where the engines used to live, much easier to maneuver, fuel efficiency is way up on modern engines and when they need service , buddy is not doing a head stand in a hole, if it needs a trip to the shop they lift it off , and may have a loaner they drop on . Lot of pluses.

In places where outboards run 12 months a year , service life is a big deal


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You would think all those are benefits, but they are not proving out that way. The big claims are fuel efficiency, longevity, and high torque -- typical diesel advantages. But are they really advantages or just claims? It seems to me they are comparing themselves against old 2 strokes -- not the Gen 2 300hp outboards that run as efficiently as diesels for 4000 hours in commercial service.

Fuel consumption in planing boats varies widely based on the hull, displacement, width shape, length, and mass, the only practical method to compare is sea trials. I haven't see any head-to-head comparisons, but similar boat trials show no advantage COX diesels when over 300hp gas, and has them behind 425 and 600HP gas outboards. The closest I could find was Boattest.com vs Cox Marine's sea trial on similar side 24' boats and it's not the 25%

Performance. Diesels have a significantly narrower rpm range, 800- 4000RPM vs 600-6000RPM in a gasser, so for hulls build to go fast, a gasser will provide 30% more speed at the top end - something most high ticket buyers are looking for.

Maybe these diesels have a place on work boats and barges. I can't see how a buyer can overcome capital cost, performance and fuel cost disadvantages. Even if the motors went 5000hrs, that 1000-hour advantage over a gas motor will probably be eaten up in the high cost of overhauling a commercial diesel.

Not seeing a win for diesel outboards.
 
Mad Mike said:
You would think all those are benefits, but they are not proving out that way. The big claims are fuel efficiency, longevity, and high torque -- typical diesel advantages. But are they really advantages or just claims? It seems to me they are comparing themselves against old 2 strokes -- not the Gen 2 300hp outboards that run as efficiently as diesels for 4000 hours in commercial service.

Fuel consumption in planing boats varies widely based on the hull, displacement, width shape, length, and mass, the only practical method to compare is sea trials. I haven't see any head-to-head comparisons, but similar boat trials show no advantage COX diesels when over 300hp gas, and has them behind 425 and 600HP gas outboards. The closest I could find was Boattest.com vs Cox Marine's sea trial on similar side 24' boats and it's not the 25%

Performance. Diesels have a significantly narrower rpm range, 800- 4000RPM vs 600-6000RPM in a gasser, so for hulls build to go fast, a gasser will provide 30% more speed at the top end - something most high ticket buyers are looking for.

Maybe these diesels have a place on work boats and barges. I can't see how a buyer can overcome capital cost, performance and fuel cost disadvantages. Even if the motors went 5000hrs, that 1000-hour advantage over a gas motor will probably be eaten up in the high cost of overhauling a commercial diesel.

Not seeing a win for diesel outboards.
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Engine rpm does not necessarily correlate to top speed. If they have more torque they can use a higher pitch prop or less reduction in the lower unit. May make docking interesting when prop is spinning at 25% of top speed instead of 10%. Nothing that should be insurmountable with some practise (or fancy controls) though.

I dont know about on the water price but road diesel is dead to me and I used to only use them. The 50% premium for fuel wipes out the savings from better mpg and you are left with higher maintenance bills and less power. Diesel is fun but I'm not convinced it's the most economical anymore. Now, the argument about decent fuel being easier to find may be valid.
 
GreyGhost said:
Engine rpm does not necessarily correlate to top speed. If they have more torque they can use a higher pitch prop or less reduction in the lower unit. May make docking interesting when prop is spinning at 25% of top speed instead of 10%. Nothing that should be insurmountable with some practise (or fancy controls) though.

I dont know about on the water price but road diesel is dead to me and I used to only use them. The 50% premium for fuel wipes out the savings from better mpg and you are left with higher maintenance bills and less power. Diesel is fun but I'm not convinced it's the most economical anymore. Now, the argument about decent fuel being easier to find may be valid.
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True, but you hit the nail on the head, propping a boat has to factor low and high speeds. If you reduce the top RPM of the motor, you have to increase the prop diameter and pitch accordingly to get the same speeds. Diesels have the extra torque to spin bigger props -- the problem is you need to handle the boat in the harbour and at the dock.

Props are a lot more efficient when spinning slowly, new EPA-compliant Diesels spin at 1000rpm at in-gear idle vs gassers at 600rpm - so there are already low-speed disadvantages to diesels in small craft. A 25-footer proper to run a 300hp diesel at top speed of 40knots will be plugging along at >5knots at idle - already a way too fast for docking -- Captain is constantly in and out of gear in the harbour. Up the prop to gain 15MPH top end would probably push the diesel boat upwards of 10knots at idle -- impossible to handle in a harbor.

If you look at the new 600hp gassers, they are starting to employ 2-speed transmissions, this lets them manage low and high speed handling while swinging bigger props at lower shaft speeds.
 
Our applicatiion if we go with plan will be displacement hull , 8-10kts cruising speed. We are looking at a 26-28ft trawler style boat , there is an option for a JohnDeere turbo deisel inboard or an outboard package. I'm leaning outboard for additional space on the boat , wife likes the look of a swim deck , it can still be done with a transome door with a small platform between the outboards.
It may start life in Canukistan , but will be doing two loops , Chicago via Trent/severn , then down to the gulf eventually to Bahamas. 5yr plan.

plan B is a nonsuch 30 sailboat , pull the mast and toss it , let the 30hp Yanmar deisel plod along at 7.6kts for days.

Either boat will be getting a bow thruster, you can pop one in the hull for about 2K , makes even Captain Kangaroo look like he can dock
 
My Dad was a pattern maker. In the '50s him and his partner decided to try their hand at building boats. They built a small F/G power boat and decided to get a booth at the boat show. Dad being Dad decided they should display thier boat in water. So they built a small pen and filled it with water. He said they were the first to display a boat on water at the show.
Dad said a lot of stuff and most of it was true. I'll believe it's true unless someone can prove different.
Oh and building boats didn't pan out.
 
in 1987 there were about 20 decent Ontario builders , by 1990 about 3 made it.
My Dad and our former neighbour would build a wooden boat (plywood molded) every winter in nieghbours garage as a winter project. It was the last 50's early60's , no TV really in a rural setting. They would use a 'marinized' auto engine , usually a chev 230 or 250 inline 6cyl and a hurth zenith transmission kit you could buy , shaft log drive that they would build up at the auto garage in town that had a machine shop they could use.
Inspiration was east coast lobster style as we had a place at long point back then and the Lake Erie square waves suited a plumb bow with a high sheer line. How nobody drowned with those idiots was a miracle.


First year for the Toronto boat show was 1959 , I was not there
 
crankcall said:
Our applicatiion if we go with plan will be displacement hull , 8-10kts cruising speed. We are looking at a 26-28ft trawler style boat , there is an option for a JohnDeere turbo deisel inboard or an outboard package. I'm leaning outboard for additional space on the boat , wife likes the look of a swim deck , it can still be done with a transome door with a small platform between the outboards.
It may start life in Canukistan , but will be doing two loops , Chicago via Trent/severn , then down to the gulf eventually to Bahamas. 5yr plan.

plan B is a nonsuch 30 sailboat , pull the mast and toss it , let the 30hp Yanmar deisel plod along at 7.6kts for days.

Either boat will be getting a bow thruster, you can pop one in the hull for about 2K , makes even Captain Kangaroo look like he can dock
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26-28 trawler is pretty small for the loop, be hard to carry anything more than 2 people and the bare necessities. You also have to consider range, you'll be hugging the gulf coast, from the Big Easy to Miami.

Go big! 32' min, 40' ideal. Then you get a 12'+ beam, the salon opens up to 9+' wide, a 28' will give you about 6' -- to me, those feel like the inside of a pickup. 32' is also the size where you can get more tanks bigger than 500l, you don't need to be shore hugging all the time. Tripping to Bahamas is 150 miles or so, a 28 will have 200 miles at best in fair seas -- rough it up a little and you'll need to hoist your baths towel to get to port.
 
Im really liking the Ranger tugs, 200mile range on the 28ft , but 4 jerry cans on the rail and your at 400miles . We've had bigger boats for trips , this is me /wife/dog , we dont need much onboard but groceries and coats. I've run the Gulf coast several times , doing a straight shot to key weird is not on the radar .
Miami is 110 miles to a customs check (freeport) in Bahama , we have made that trip a dozen times. Hardest part is sitting in Lauderdale or Miami waiting for a window to cross, even 60-70ft boats wait.
If the wind is up the gulf stream is pretty lumpy for the 30-40mile width, we use a weather service guy, he tracks us online and does real time updates on what your about to run into ,$20 a day US , worth every penny to me
 
The other day I saw an single inboard 30ish footer being trailered to the CNE FWIW

I like the look of trawlers but would want to know how they rocked and rolled, particularly at anchor.

Bayliner made a small trawler ages ago but the fuel / mile wasn't much better than more powerful boats going the same speed. The bayliner didn't have the option of pedal to the metal to beat a storm front.

I also wonder about diesels and back draft from a following wind. Lots of questions.
 
The backdraft on a following sea is a very real concern , our 30ft sailboat is diesel , water mixes with exhaust but you can get a stink . You usually just move people around to avoid the breeze .

A lot of trawlers, planing hulls and tugs sit terribly at anchor , and a lot sit very nicely. Our l older Trojan would turn sideways to the waves and then just roll , setting a second anchor complicated things and a large carrick did nothing . The ChrisCraft now being an express cruiser is such an ordeal to get on the bow you don’t want to anchor , goes to Burlington beach twice a summer and we fight the whole way down how is going to set the anchor.
Bay liners just suck , value priced boats.

We are looking at a sea keeping system that deploys over the side and using counters weights and a small gyro computer takes the roll out of the boat at anchor .

I don’t need to outrun the weather , if it’s unpredictable we don’t move . We’ve had lots of microbursts and summer storms in a lifetime of this , but we set up every boat to manage the inevitable.


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My worst fear is watching the guys that bring cottage boats out to big lakes , and load 8 cattle size people in a boat that seats 8. The guy at the boat show told them it would handle big water , sure the boat will , what about the crew ?


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crankcall said:
My worst fear is watching the guys that bring cottage boats out to big lakes , and load 8 cattle size people in a boat that seats 8. The guy at the boat show told them it would handle big water , sure the boat will , what about the crew ?


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Even if you dont have 8 people, make sure everyone you do have sits in the bow. I never understand that one but it seems to be the default.

I know I am well out of practice as I havent driven in big waves in decades. Inlaws cottage lake gets chop at worst.
 
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